Seanad debates

Tuesday, 22 April 2008

2:30 pm

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No.1, motion to approve framework decision re the exchange of information; No. 2, statements on the implementation of the national skills strategy; and No. 3, statements on patient safety. It is proposed that No. 1 will be taken without debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; that No. 2 will be taken at the conclusion of No. 1, to conclude not later than 5 p.m. during which spokespersons may speak for seven minutes, all other Senators for five minutes and Senators may share time, with the Minister to be called upon ten minutes before the end of the debate for concluding comments and to answer questions from spokespersons; and that No. 3 will be taken at the conclusion of No. 2, to conclude not later than 7 p.m., during which spokespersons may speak for eight minutes, all other Senators for five minutes and Senators may share time, with the Minister to be called upon ten minutes before the end of the debate for concluding comments and to answer questions from spokespersons.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Many people are extremely concerned about the very sad case in Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children in Crumlin, where the wrong kidney was removed from a child during an operation. The family wants privacy but given the enormous concern that a case like this raises among patients and families, whatever report is prepared should be made available as soon as possible. We must know the facts of the case.

The pharmacy dispute continues to be of huge concern. I ask the Leader to raise the matter with the Minister for Health and Children and to reassure Members that steps are being taken behind the scenes — even if we are not being told about them — so that patients will not suffer if the dispute escalates. Clearly I would prefer it if the escalation of the dispute does not go ahead.

I wish to refer to an issue raised in this House last week. I ask the Leader to apologise to Members on this side of the House for the comments he made regarding our approach to the Lisbon treaty.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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Senator Cassidy was quite inaccurate in what he said. Fine Gael has taken a most proactive approach, as emphasised by the huge number of public meetings we have held, which thousands of people attended. If there has been any delay in selling the merits of the Lisbon treaty, it has been on the Government side of the House. The Government has been very slow in circulating the kind of information people need. The level of ignorance about the Lisbon treaty and its merits is worrying. The treaty has not been sold by the Government at all. For the Leader of the House to say what he said last week to Fine Gael — the party that has done so much to promote the merits of the treaty — was very inappropriate and inaccurate. I ask the Leader to acknowledge the work that has been done throughout the country by Members on this side of the House. We are very aware of how important it is for Ireland that this treaty be ratified. We are anxious that it be supported by the people and are very concerned about the lack of information. I look forward to the Leader's response.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I agree with what Senator Fitzgerald has just said. Perhaps the Leader was not aware of the situation. I have been invited, along with a number of colleagues, to meetings organised by Fine Gael on the Lisbon treaty. All the activity in my area has been organised by Fine Gael. I am totally disinterested in this issue but Fine Gael has pulled out all the stops and deserves credit for it.

A great deal of tosh has been uttered in the debate and people need to examine it. It is all fine and well for those who need a 150-page contract to buy a few acres of land to seek a simple document for us joining 27 countries in Europe. The notion that a simple document can be produced such as the Ten Commandments or the US Constitution is another way of inviting a million lawyers all over Europe to challenge us at every nip and turn. This must be a complex document and it is not drivel. Many pages are easily read but others are necessarily complex. The US Constitution only takes a few pages and it is very clear but it has given rise to court cases, constitutional challenges and constant reinterpretation. It is not a correct comparison and that case needs to be made publicly. It is completely incorrect for commentators to say the treaty is drivel. It is easily read by anybody who takes the trouble to go through it but it is hard going. It must be a complex document. The document cannot be written so that it can be read by a third class child as it concerns the most difficult and complex set of arrangements ever put together.

The new treaty encompasses the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, which is also an easily read document and which is very like the US Constitution. Whichever people are right and wrong, we should make the case. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has done good work but she should ask the following simple question of every farmer in Ireland: Do they think a representative of one island off the western seaboard of Europe would have greater clout at the World Trade Organisation than a representative of all of Europe? That is the issue and, therefore, our focus should be on supporters of farmers throughout Europe. There are many to make it work that way.

People in France and Holland voted against the draft constitution for reasons other than what was in it and we cannot allow that to happen with this treaty. Let us have a fair debate and people can make up their minds at the end of the day. It has nothing to do with the WTO or Commissioner Mandelson or anybody else. The treaty reduces the power and influence of people like Commissioner Mandelson, placing him on an equal footing with parliamentarians.

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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I support the comments of Senators O'Toole and Fitzgerald on the Lisbon treaty debate. I did not hear the Leader's remarks last week and, therefore, I cannot comment on them. It does not serve us at all to engage in such cross-party slagging about who is doing more on the issue. We all have a responsibility to explain the terms of the treaty. Fine Gael is doing that where I live. In case colleagues miss any of the Fine Gael meetings, they will have an opportunity to attend a Labour Party meeting next Thursday night in Taney Parish Centre, Dundrum, where they will hear myself and others doing our bit to explain the treaty. Senator Mary White lives nearby and she might find a half an hour to come along.

It is vitally important that information is disseminated on the treaty. There are complexities to it and Senator O'Toole is correct that in the lead-up to the referendum people want information. They genuinely need information and guidance regarding what is in the treaty. We can have the more robust debate about voting "Yes" and "No" closer to the date of the referendum. We have a responsibility as public representatives to inform the public because there is a great deal of misinformation.

On 30 January I raised the issue of an EU directive the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform proposes to introduce in respect of the retention of information about all e-mail and Internet activity by citizens of the State for a period of three years. The Leader kindly wrote to me the following day but the issue has come to light again today. I seek a debate in respect of the range of offences it is proposed the statutory instrument will encompass. Of course people have concerns about Bank of Ireland, loss of laptops and retention of data, but when it comes to the State, it is vital the Houses of the Oireachtas should have a supervisory role in determining the law in this area. It is not good enough for the issue to be dealt with by way of statutory instrument. I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister to come to the House to debate the matter and explain why he proposes to deal with the matter by way of statutory instrument rather than by primary legislation, which is the correct way for it to be done. Will the Leader revisit the issue and call upon the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come to the House and facilitate debate on this important issue?

Photo of Déirdre de BúrcaDéirdre de Búrca (Green Party)
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I draw the attention of the House to the fact that today, 22 April, is Earth Day, a day that is marked internationally. The purpose of the day is to promote greater awareness of some of the threats that face our earth, the greatest of which is climate change. I congratulate the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, on the series of advertisements his Department has launched recently to promote public awareness of the importance of this issue. The advertisements put forward the issue as a challenge our generation must face up to, similar to challenges faced by previous generations. I raise the issue because, when legislation and measures to deal with the issue arise in the Houses of the Oireachtas, I hope there will be cross-party support for them.

I also call for an urgent parliamentary debate on the issue of data retention. It is ironic and somewhat disturbing that on a day when the leading story in the media concerns the fact that customers of a particular bank discovered their confidential data had been stolen and only belatedly reported to the Data Protection Commissioner, we hear the State is considering broadening Garda powers of request for Internet data under a new draft statutory instrument implementing European directives in the area of data retention. Unfortunately, as Senator Alex White said, it appears the definition of criminal offence will be broadened to allow gardaí to request e-mail and Internet data retained by service providers relating to any offence which could receive a maximum custodial sentence of six months. This would include offences such as public order offences, for example, a minor assault or refusing to move on when being asked to do so by a garda.

As in many other policy areas, we must get the balance right. In the area of data retention we must find the right balance between protecting our common security and recognising that the issue of data retention is bound up with human and consumer rights. Protecting individual privacy must be a priority. I ask that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform come to House to explain how the statutory instrument is being implemented and the reason the definition of serious offence has been changed. I suggest we also should have a broader debate on the issue in both Houses. If we do not have that, we will see measures such as this being implemented without much debate, which is not in our interests.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I missed the opportunity last week to be associated with the congratulations to Senator Cannon on his elevation and offer my congratulations to him today. I also congratulate Senator Terry Leyden on his elevation to the vice presidency of his political grouping within the Council of Europe last week.

I wish to raise an issue I raised at the beginning of the year, namely, the serious gridlock around the city that impinges on us all. It takes me approximately two and a half to three hours to get here and approximately one and a half hours to come through the last stretch into Dublin. This has serious economic and social consequences for the country. I propose that we have a debate on the re-introduction of a railway network. One of the arguments used against the introduction of a railway is that it would not be used sufficiently to justify the cost economically. However, that it is not available means it will not be used. The same reasoning could have applied to a swimming pool constructed in my local area recently. The argument then was there would not be a throughput to use it, but it is being used when it is available and the same principle applies to railway.

If people could have boarded a train today in Navan and not stayed in the two and a half hours gridlock from Navan to Dublin, they would have happily boarded the train. We should have a railway from Navan to Dublin with park-and-ride facilities at Navan and this should be linked up to Kingswood in my constituency. This should be replicated throughout the country. We should do a feasibility study as a matter of urgency on the introduction of railways and the costings. There is a compelling case to introduce a railway network immediately and, at a minimum, to do a study to establish the reason we are not doing this. If the railway was available it would be used.

I ask the Leader for a debate on the introduction, costings and the prioritisation of railway. The quality of life of the people and the future of the economy and so many other issues depend on this. I ask that this be made a priority issue.

Photo of Ned O'SullivanNed O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader if possible to arrange for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to come to the House and to initiative a debate on the question of energy security. This is an issue which is becoming more critical every day both nationally and globally. I ask that the Minister outline the Government's position in the growing debate on the pros and cons of bio-fuels. This is in the context of increasing world hunger, whether the emphasis on the production of bio-fuels is positive or negative, it may be a crime against humanity as described in one of the leading newspapers yesterday.

I ask the Minister to outline the Government's position on the liquified natural gas project which is planned for north County Kerry. It has now passed all stages of the planning process, including an oral hearing at An Bord Pleanála. I ask that the Minister indicate his support for this project and that he would be prepared to get involved as a facilitator. The project is very much in line with his party's policy. It is hoped to remove any outstanding concerns that may linger among a small group of the community. This project has the support of the entire business community and the support of the population of an area which is witnessing increasing unemployment.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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I wish to address the comments made at the end of last week by the Leader of the House where he implied that some of us were not doing our bit for the Lisbon treaty. He must have been asleep last week. One of our MEP's was assaulted for trying to explain the treaty to people. I have attended three meetings on the Lisbon treaty in the last week, most recently this morning sharing a platform with the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dick Roche, at the Irish Countrywomen's Association day in Termonfekin.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator is lucky.

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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They were more civil than the crowd last week and I got out alive. I agree it is vital that we do our part and I can assure the Leader that he will not find us wanting on this side of the House.

I wish to raise the issue of broadband. I read a report some days ago stating that Eircom has offered to upgrade the speeds of broadband in such gateway towns as Dundalk and Letterkenny. There is no proposal to do anything in the commuter belt. Unemployment rates in the commuter belt are rising all the time especially in such places as Naas, Drogheda and Ashbourne. We need to start investing in faster broadband speeds in such places. Broadband speeds in Japan are 100 times faster than speeds in Ireland. We need to do something about this. We cannot only work on the gateway cities. We need to look at the rest of the commuter belt.

Photo of Eoghan HarrisEoghan Harris (Independent)
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In light of all the Taoiseach has done to promote pluralism in Northern Ireland, it would be a pity if he did not distance himself from the uses put by some SDLP councillors to the money made at a recent breakfast lunch fundraiser in the Carrigdale Hotel in County Louth. The Taoiseach may not be aware that some of the proceeds of that breakfast were being used to pay the fines of a group of five delinquent SDLP councillors who followed 12 Sinn Féin councillors in a tribal action to deprive Willie Frazer's group, Families Acting for Innocent Relatives, the use of a community-owned hall in Armagh in 2002. It may well be that the SDLP did not advise the Taoiseach that some of the funds raised at that breakfast were going to be used to pay off these fines but in light of the fact he has done nothing but advance the pluralist cause and represent the progressive tradition, the Lynch tradition, in Fianna Fáil, it would be a tragedy if any construction could be put on this that Fianna Fáil was any way condoning the actions of these five SDLP councillors and the 12 Sinn Féin councillors who conspired to ban Protestants from the use of that public hall.

Although I would not in principle be against Fianna Fáil having relations with the SDLP, as there are many things to commend it, it would be a pity if Fianna Fáil were to be led by local groups of SDLP councillors with local tribal agendas and be carried on their coat tails in these matters when it has broad national aims which may be contrary to the local aims of tribal SDLP and Sinn Féin councillors.

Photo of Liam TwomeyLiam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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They could have been led by worse.

Photo of Eoghan HarrisEoghan Harris (Independent)
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This also illustrates another point: the danger of being carried on the coat tails of Sinn Féin policies in any matter. The SDLP allowed itself to be carried in that local area on the coat tails of Sinn Féin, much as some of the people who opposed the Lisbon treaty are allowing themselves to be carried by Sinn Féin fronts in the campaign and which led to the attack, which I deplore strongly, on Proinsias De Rossa, MEP, by elements within the anti-Lisbon campaign who are first cousins of the Shell to Sea gangsters who have been polluting that campaign. I call on the anti-Lisbon people, as well as Fianna Fáil, to distance themselves from these Sinn Féin tribal elements with regard to both the Armagh issue and the anti-Lisbon campaign.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I support Senator Alex White's call for a debate with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the issue of Internet and e-mail data retention which is being reported on in today's edition of The Irish Times. I am delighted that Senator de Búrca also has called for this and I ask her to use her influence within Government to ensure this statutory instrument does not see the light of day because it seems to me to encroach seriously on the constitutional rights of accused people and on the rights of us all in that it appears to enable the Garda Síochána to request access to Internet and e-mail data for the investigation of any sort of offence which carries of maximum penalty of six months or more. This would undermine all the legal understanding of what constitutes a serious offence. In all other legislation, including the Bail Act, it is defined as an offence carrying a five-year maximum penalty or more. This is also of concern to business because the proposed statutory instrument would impose onerous obligations on business to retain such data for a period 12 months. We need to have this debated urgently.

I also ask for a debate on another issue relating to pharmacies. There has been much discussion in both Houses about pharmacists and the Health Service Executive. I wish to raise an issue which has been brought to my attention by final year pharmacy students in Trinity College. They are very concerned about the lack of placements available to them for professional training. These are students coming to the end of their undergraduate course who need to have professional placements. Usually about 80% of the class would have obtained placements by now but this year only about 40% so far have obtained placements. They have contacted the Department of Health and Children about this issue and requested that more training placements be made available within hospitals, which is within the remit of the Minister for Health and Children to do, or that additional funding be made available to secure placements for them. This is a serious issue which will impinge on the future qualification of sufficient pharmacists in this country. I ask for a debate on this issue.

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful for the generous comments of my colleague, Senator Joe O'Reilly. I was delighted to accept the position of vice president of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe as the member of the Fianna Fáil party in the Council of Europe.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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The word "liberal" is a bit of a misnomer.

3:00 pm

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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I also wish to congratulate Senator Ciaran Cannon on his election as leader of the Progressive Democrats. As someone from the west, it is a great honour for him and his family. I hope his deputy leader will also be another Member of this House, Senator Fiona O'Malley, who was runner-up in the contest.

Will the Leader arrange a debate on the accession of the European Union to the European Convention on Human Rights? At last week's April session of the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, a resolution recommending that the Committee of Ministers open negotiations immediately with the European Union on the arrangements for and procedural implications of accession was accepted by 33 votes to three, with two abstentions. The main implication of the accession of the EU to the convention is that European citizens will be entitled to take the institutions of the EU to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, thus enhancing the transparency and accountability of the Union. While all member states are already parties to the convention, this important further step is required by the amended Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union. It is an aspect of the Lisbon treaty that has received little attention in this House or in the media. Statements on the Lisbon treaty will resume in this House tomorrow and this important but somewhat ignored aspect of the treaty merits a full debate.

I heard callers to RTE Radio 1 this morning express dissatisfaction at the unavailability of copies of the Lisbon reform treaty. I agree with Senator O'Toole that a text of its size and complexity cannot be explained easily in a short document. The referendum on the Lisbon treaty is the most important issue facing the Irish people. The more debates we have in this House and the greater our efforts to ensure voters are informed, the more likely we are to increase support for the treaty. Ireland, with a population of 4.2 million, has a tremendous responsibility in deciding the fate of the 500 million citizens of the EU. It is a great honour and it is up to all of us to do our best. I acknowledge that all parties are playing their part in this regard.

Photo of Liam TwomeyLiam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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While it is a nice idea for Fianna Fáil and the Green Party to celebrate Earth Day 2008, it is pathetic that we are allowed only ten minutes of questions and answers with the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, on the issue of patient safety.

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Liam TwomeyLiam Twomey (Fine Gael)
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I do not wish to pre-empt the report into events at Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children in Crumlin. There have been numerous incidents in recent years that gave similar cause for concern, including events at Leas Cross and Barringtons Hospital and the cases of PJ Walsh in County Monaghan and Rebecca O'Malley in County Tipperary. There is no transparency and accountability in regard to patient safety. It is degrading to the status of this House that the Minister will give Members only ten minutes for questions and answers. Some weeks ago, a debate on littering and rubbish took place over several days. If we are serious about patient safety and making the Health Service Executive work for patients, there should be a much wider and lengthier debate on patient safety issues. I call on the Leader to make that happen.

Photo of Cecilia KeaveneyCecilia Keaveney (Fianna Fail)
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At the plenary session of last week's Council of Europe, an important report on adolescent suicide in Europe was presented. This report highlighted that in Ireland, as in many other European countries, many more people die by suicide than in road accidents. We have had many debates in this House on road safety but there has been insufficient debate on suicide. I put forward an amendment calling for mechanisms to be put in place to equip and encourage teenagers to communicate with a supportive person when they feel under pressure or fearful or perceive themselves to have failed in some way. This amendment was passed unanimously.

Discussion on this issue can be based on the recent report from the Council of Europe or on the extensive work done in this State. I ask the Leader to communicate with the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Devins, who has responsibility for mental health, to ensure this issue is brought to the fore. We must discuss how we will enable students to be equipped and encouraged to communicate their fears, whether perceived or real. Either the Department of Education and Science or the Department of Health and Children must take the lead role in this endeavour.

As usual, last week's plenary session was attended by representatives of the 47 member states. I was surprised by the number of people who made a point of approaching the Irish delegation to wish us success in the campaign on the Lisbon treaty. This included the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the Ukrainian Prime Minister. Warm wishes were conveyed that we should achieve a positive result.

A strong report that was published last week showed that half of students have experienced some degree of bullying in school. I have raised on a number of occasions the need for a debate on bullying in the workplace. Perhaps both matters can be discussed in the context of a single debate on bullying which is something that can lead to suicide. Perhaps the issues I have mentioned could be tied together as part of a debate that is pertinent at this point.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Will the Leader contact the Minister for Foreign Affairs to wish him success with the forthcoming international diplomatic conference on cluster munitions, to be held in Croke Park? I hope a treaty can be produced on foot of that meeting. In light of the resolutions which were passed unanimously on an all-party basis by the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and this House, it is important for the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to hold the line in the interests of everyone. European countries that persist in manufacturing these appalling instruments of misery and death will be represented at the conference. They will seek to weaken what is already on the table. I hope we will hold the line in that regard. In that context, I welcome the announcement made a week ago or so by the Minister that the process of disinvestment of this State's pension funds, etc. in companies that are associated with the munitions trade has commenced. We had been looking for such an announcement for some time.

Can the Leader arrange a debate on the extraordinary disappearance of hundreds of children who had been placed in care by the Health Service Executive? We have no record of them. We do not know where they are or what has happened them. Some of them appear to have ended up in the sex trade, which is not something this country should support.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Lisbon treaty tomorrow. There seems to be an automatic assumption that the only positive outcome is a "Yes" vote. It is not democratic to suggest that one has the right to vote as long as one votes "Yes". Similarly, we should not patronise voters by telling them they cannot access a document that is amenable to "a third class child", whatever that is.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I was referring to a child in third class in school.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Fine.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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On the Order of Business——

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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To be fair, a Chathaoirligh, I gave Senator O'Toole advance warning of that little one. He made some arcane whispers to me about the need for a treaty that could be turned over two pages at a time, like the Book of Kells.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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We can read one page a day.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I have attempted to look at this treaty.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Other speakers are waiting.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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The closer I look at it, the less I like it. We know that 96% of it is the failed European constitution. If we are so democratic, why are we the only one of the 27 member states to give voters an opportunity to vote on the treaty? If it is such a wonderful thing and everyone knows it is right, why are we afraid to let people vote? Why do we have a new blossoming of European megalocrats, so to speak, who know better than their own populations? Why are we getting so many conflicting messages? We are being told that our tax advantage, of which many European countries are jealous, will be guarded, even though the leaders of at least two or three major European countries which are in competition with us have convinced themselves they will be able to get rid of it. I do not like the insidious way in which, for example, a European Commissioner who commenced action against the provisions which permitted the churches in this country to get exemption from our equality legislation——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We are on the Order of Business.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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It is an extraordinary thing that the Christian religions should want not to be covered by that legislation.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should ask some questions of the Leader.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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When the Commissioner came to this country, he gave undertakings to a small unrepresentative clique of people in the same way as we got the protocol on abortion in a previous treaty. That is not very democratic. I am making my way through the treaty. I have not yet decided how I will vote, although I am pretty close to deciding on a "No" vote.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should ask a question.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I am entitled to do that. I will distance myself from anyone who attacks an elected representative. I deplore the attack on Proinsias de Rossa, MEP.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Are we having the debate now?

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I also deplore the condescension that has been doled out to people who may honourably, decently and with integrity take a different view. That is not democracy, nor representative of the Europe in which I want to be. I want to be in a social Europe, not a neoliberal economic mess.

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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I hope that prior to the finish of the debate on the Lisbon treaty, Senator Norris can be brought around to vote "Yes". He raises an interesting question as to why we will have a referendum in Ireland. It is not for constitutional reasons. It is because we have a tradition of having referenda in light of the Crotty judgment of 1986.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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We are promised them and half the time they cancel them.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Regan without interruption.

Photo of Eugene ReganEugene Regan (Fine Gael)
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The reason other member states do not have referenda is because they do not consider that the treaty has constitutional implications. It is also a question of sovereignty that each member state in accordance with its constitutional traditions will decide how it adopts treaty changes. This is an important point.

With regard to the Lisbon treaty, I wish to take up the remarks of Senator Fitzgerald and those made by the Leader last week. I imagine his remarks about the approach of Fine Gael to the Lisbon treaty were made in the heat of the moment. However, I ask the Leader to withdraw those remarks and correct the record of the House. Fine Gael has been consistent on the Lisbon treaty and all previous treaties. We do not allow domestic political issues to get in the way and distract from what is in the interests of the country.

Last week I did not have the opportunity to say a few words about the late President Hillery. I worked with him in his cabinet 34 years ago. He established the Irish presence in Brussels as we entered the EEC and he showed an independence and professionalism which has stood the test of time and has benefited Ireland in our 35 years of membership. I accompanied him, along with a former Senator, Neville Keery, when he addressed the Oxford Union in 1974. It was on this evening one of the major bombing incidents occurred. As a Senator, it was an honour for me to attend the State funeral of a man of honour and integrity.

On an entirely different subject, we must discuss in this House the statements made by the outgoing Taoiseach and the incoming Taoiseach on the Tribunals of Inquiry Act. I believed the resignation of the Taoiseach drew a line in the sand with regard to the preoccupation of this House and the Lower House with the Mahon tribunal. Based on the statements made by the incoming Taoiseach yesterday, it seems a continuous effort will be made, and it will be his policy, to undermine the Mahon tribunal, ostensibly by calling into question the very legislation by which tribunals are appointed and which gives the power to the Oireachtas to determine the terms of reference of tribunals.

We all agree the tribunals have gone on too long. However, we must also agree it has been difficult and has taken a long time to get to the truth of the finances of former Taoisigh and Ministers. I do not want to prolong the discussion on this. However, I must ask the Leader whether it is the intention of the incoming Taoiseach and his Ministers to continue the process of undermining the Mahon tribunal by calling into question the Tribunal of Inquiries Act which the Standards in Public Office Commission and our ethics legislation have clearly outlined is essential to restore confidence in the political system.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I congratulate Senator Cannon on his election and I wish him well in his endeavours.

I echo the calls of Senators Fitzgerald and Regan on the Leader to clarify the record to show that we in Fine Gael are extremely pro-active with regard to the Lisbon treaty. I have been canvassing door to door for the past two weeks with Colm Burke, MEP. As Senator Norris stated, there is a great chance the Lisbon treaty will be defeated; it is not a fairytale. It is a reality resulting from the arrogance of the Government which has done very little to promote the treaty. It is incumbent on the Government to lead the challenge and join us on this side of the House in promoting the Lisbon treaty. I appeal to farmers not to vote "No" to the Lisbon treaty to get at the Government in respect of the WTO talks because they are a separate issue and the treaty will reduce the power of Commissioner Mandelson.

I reiterate my appeal to the Leader, for whom I have much time, for a debate on aviation policy for which I have called on four occasions. I call for such a debate in light of the capitulation of the Government, aided by Senator Boyle and his party, in regard to the alleviation of the Cork Airport debt. A debt of €130 million has been levied on Cork Airport by the Government which includes Senator Boyle's party.

The Minister for Transport has not addressed this House on the issue. I put down an Adjournment matter on the issue but he did not come to the House nor did he turn up in Cork yesterday. He has treated the people of Cork badly and the silence of Senator Boyle on the matter belittles the statements he made on Cork Airport while in Opposition. I call on the Leader to arrange a debate on the Government's aviation policy as a matter of urgency because the people of Cork have been let down badly by the Government.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I wish Senator Cannon the very best as he sets out on a great adventure. As a fellow east Galwegian, I can tell him that many people in that part of the country are very proud of his achievement, although we see him as somewhat reminiscent of an arctic explorer and hope he will get back safely from this adventure.

As a former GAA referee, I am sure the Cathaoirleach will support me in saying that there is a need for a debate on conduct in sport. I was at the hurling league final last Sunday and the only thing wrong with that match was the result but one could not say the same about the football match. The president of the GAA was right in describing the conduct at the Dublin versus Meath match as "disgusting" and "unacceptable". We need to ask ourselves whether it is time for a debate on promoting the best standards in sport.

I recognise the GAA is doing its best but are suspensions for a number of weeks enough to deal with this problem? We have reached a situation where some of these outbreaks of brawling become the stuff of legend in that people talk of "the battle of Omagh" a couple of years ago and so on. When one considers not only the importance of sport as a means of uniting people and something which promotes healthy attitudes in the community, but also the fact we will pretty much be paying these participants in sport, we might be——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can raise that in the debate.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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——reaching the point where we need to talk about the GAA to understand what it is doing to resolve this problem.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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There are rules. We can have a debate on sport if the Leader so wishes but we cannot go into the rules of any organisation and tell it what to do.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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Speaking of fair play, it is important we do justice to people who cannot be present when we refer to them in the House. I am sure Senator Norris did not intend to mislead the House when he claimed last week that Professor Patricia Casey had been accused by Swedish researchers of making inappropriate use of their research and drawing inaccurate conclusions in her evidence in the Zappone-Gilligan case. The Swedish report in question did not exist at the time Professor Casey gave evidence. Not only that but the reference Professor Casey made to that Swedish research was to the effect of the importance of fathers in children's development. That is a not a proposition which any reasonable——

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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UNICEF has reproached her as well for inappropriate and inaccurate use of——

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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That is not——

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Let us come back to that.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris has made his contribution so I would appreciate it if he would let Senator Mullen complete his.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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He made it eloquently and at length.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Terry LeydenTerry Leyden (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Mullen should not let Senator Norris bully him.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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The proposition that fathers are important to their children's development is indisputable and we should not be surprised if, for some ideological reasons of their own, those Swedish researchers might have further difficulties with Professor Casey's assertion that the best way to promote parental development is to support marriage between biological parents. However, we should remember that even academics are capable of being blinkered by ideology on occasions. I note that Senator Norris, whom I esteem greatly, has almost come out as a "No" voter on the Lisbon treaty.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I look forward to the debate on this issue.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I must call the next speaker. A number of speakers are offering and the time for the Order of Business has almost elapsed.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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It appears he is coming out on the wrong issue in desiring that the European Union be able to over-ride the right of the Irish people to determine their employment equality legislation. Surely, that is desirable as an expression of the principle of subsidiarity. If Senator Norris is to come out as a "No" voter, I suggest he do so for more considered reasons.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I did not say that; that is rubbish.

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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Whatever about the violence on Sunday between the Dublin and Meath players, I thought we were going to experience violence in the House today between Senators Norris and Mullen.

I again call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to this House. On each occasion since Christmas that I have been present in the House for the Order of Business I have asked for a debate on agriculture with particular reference to the World Trade Talks. Many Members attended the large demonstration last week at which farming organisations expressed their concerns in regard to Commissioner Mandelson's proposals. It would be appropriate that the Minister attend this House sooner rather than later. The Leader might also invite the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy McGuinness, who has responsibility for the World Trade Talks to attend this House with the Minister to hear the legitimate concerns of those involved in agriculture in respect of Commissioner Mandelson's proposals.

I echo some of the sentiments expressed by previous speakers in calling on the Leader to invite the Minister for Finance to this House. There have been several calls on the Leader each week by Government and Opposition Senators to invite the Minister to this Chamber to discuss the public finances, the economy, rising inflation and rising unemployment. It would be appropriate that we hear the views of the Minister for Finance on these particularly important subjects before he assumes the position of Taoiseach.

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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The Irish people have had a strong record for many years in terms of assisting the Third World and of providing aid. As Senator de Búrca stated, today is Earth Day. We should take this opportunity to remind ourselves of the recently published statistic that more than 1 billion of the 6 billion people on Earth live on less than $1 per day yet food is increasing in price by approximately 20%. This puts these people into dire poverty and increases the risk of famine. As Senator O'Sullivan stated, it is time we debated this issue.

Before I came into the House today, I visited the Irish National Environmental Showcase in the Royal College of Physicians which focuses on concerns in respect of climate change. Part of the problem is that given much of our food is being diverted to fuel, it is likely we will not have enough food to feed the world's population. Let us ensure people do not come back to us in 20 or 30 years time and say that Ireland, a wealthy country, in debating issues such as the position taken by Commissioner Mandelson and Irish farmers, turned its eye away from the problems of the world and the 1 billion people likely to starve.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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As there are three Members remaining to speak and there are only two minutes left for the Order of Business, I ask them to be brief.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Green Party)
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I again break the silence I have broken on three other occasions during the Order of Business in calling for a debate on national aviation policy. The Government has appointed a mediator to Cork Airport. The mediator's report has been accepted by the board of Cork Airport. It is a situation which, unfortunately, we are going to have to learn to live with.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Senator Boyle should read that script when in Opposition.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Boyle, without interruption, please.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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He has changed his tune and is flying on one wing again.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Green Party)
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At least I am still singing in tune.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Senator Boyle has changed his tune again.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Green Party)
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I support the call by Senators O'Sullivan and Quinn for a debate on energy and food security. No one has called for food substitution in relation to meeting the energy needs of the developed world. The more clear that message is and the sooner it goes out, the better.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Leader if we might have a debate on the legislation underpinning the tribunals. Soundbites such as we hear from Senator Regan is not the way to deal with this. It is a very serious issue that is costing the taxpayers an arm and a leg. I can understand that people in the legal profession would want to see it continue. It has really been a gravy train where excessive and exorbitant fees——

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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In that regard, the Government is not blameless for having, in the first instance, agreed the extraordinary fees which these people are getting, but we must recognise that the chairmen of some of those tribunals in fact used their position in order to act more or less as shop stewards for the wealthy legal profession in extracting——

(Interruptions).

Photo of Alex WhiteAlex White (Labour)
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What are we listening to now?

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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That remark should be withdrawn at once.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Members should confine their comments to questions to the Leader

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Excuse me, I am sorry, this is a democratic State and that is a most dangerous accusation to make about a legally established body and its chairman. It is outrageous and I demand that it be withdrawn.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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In regard to the tribunals, there is a Bill pending in the Lower House which is to come before us. I ask the Leader that the Bill be brought to this House as soon as possible.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach will be aware that these are statements I have been making for the past four or five years——

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole——

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The commissions of investigation legislation----

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator O'Toole.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order——

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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——came before the House two or three years ago. That legislation——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Walsh, a point of order has been requested.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I believe the House has been disgraced by that remark. In all fairness we can have strong debate over and back but we have a long term rule that we do not have a go at people outside. The separation of powers is crucially important as well. There are constitutional and conventional reasons and a strong history of this House which should surely make it clear to Senator Walsh that he should retract that comment immediately.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I wish to say——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I have always outlined that it is wrong to discuss people — whether a group or an organisation — from outside the House who are not here to defend themselves.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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The Senator has made serious criminal charges.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Can I say that the commissions of investigation legislation which was passed by these Houses during the time of the last Government——

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator has not withdrawn——

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That is not what he said——

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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——clearly set down

(Interruptions).

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I have asked the Cathaoirleach to rule that that remark be withdrawn. Will he give a ruling on it?

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I inform Senator Norris that I have asked Senator Walsh to withdraw his comment.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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In that regard, I welcome the Cathaoirleach's comments——

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should withdraw the remark.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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——that we should not discuss people from outside this House. I have written to him about that matter in relation to Senator Regan who has consistently referred to people from outside this House and has been given tremendous latitude in that regard.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Can I say——

(Interruptions).

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We are not discussing Senator Regan but another matter, namely, the point the Senator raised which I have asked him to withdraw.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the comments I made about chairmen of the tribunals making representations to the Government with regard to the fees of lawyers, I fully stand over them. It is absolutely true, a Chathaoirligh, and it should not have happened and should never have been acceded to.

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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The Senator should withdraw that.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I asked the Senator to withdraw that.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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He called them shop stewards.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is true and therefore I am not withdrawing it.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I cannot hear anyone.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The record will clearly show that is the position.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I cannot even hear what the Senator said. Other Senators are asking why he did not withdraw his comment. I asked him to withdraw it and, with the interruptions, I could not hear what he said.

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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He just said he stood over it.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Peter CallananPeter Callanan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should be allowed to repeat the comments——

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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He said he stood over them.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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If the Senator continues with that, I will adjourn the House.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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We now have an extremely serious situation. Senator Callanan has said that he is telling the truth, in defiance of the Cathaoirleach's authority. It is a very serious constitutional matter.

Photo of Peter CallananPeter Callanan (Fianna Fail)
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——and listen to the bloody airy fairy tales we are getting from over there.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I ask Senator Walsh if he withdrew his comment. I ask for silence.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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The disruption from the far side is totally out of order. The Cathaoirleach has made no attempt to protect me, which he should have done.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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It is still happening. I state clearly, regarding the point I made, that representations — strong representations — were made with regard to the continuance of the tribunal that unless the fees for the lawyers were agreed and maintained at a certain level, it would not continue. Those were made by former chairmen of the tribunal.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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That is correct. That is a fact that anybody in this House can verify.

Senators:

True.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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In respect of the separation of powers, one must separate them.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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On a point of order, as someone who has taken a middle of the road position in respect of this debate, has not been critical of the Taoiseach and has been fair and balanced, I cannot accept the situation we are in. If that remark, which referred to the chair of the tribunal as being the shop steward for the legal profession, etc., is not withdrawn, the House is in disrepute. If Senator Walsh is not prepared to withdraw it, I ask that he be named and asked to leave the House.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I have asked Senator Walsh to withdraw that specific remark on three or four occasions. To be fair to the Senator, I do not know if he withdrew it because I could not hear what he was saying.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I have said what I have said. I stand over everything I have said as being factual. I would not have said it otherwise.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The House stands suspended.

Sitting suspended at 3.31 p.m and resumed at 3.41 p.m.