Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Tá áthas an domhain orm a bheith anseo chun tús a chuir leis an díospóirecht seo, atá tábhachtach domsa agus don tír. Os rud é go mbeidh mé ag bualadh le bainisteóirí contae agus cathrach san athbhliain chun an cheist seo a phlé, is mian liom tuaraimí an tSeanaid a fháil roimh ré. I welcome the opportunity for a debate on the merits of developing local food economies and direct sale options for producers. One direct sale option which appeals to many consumers and producers alike is the farmers' market. Others include farm shops, box schemes and community supported agriculture or CSA as they call it in Canada, the USA and Britain, which includes encouraging local abattoirs.

Before specifically focusing on the merits of farmers' markets I want to put the timelines of this debate in a wider context. Just this week the head of the International Food Policy Research Institute, Mr. Joachim von Braun gave us a stark message. His report, called the World Food Situation, says the risks of food riots and malnutrition will surge in the next two years as the global supply of grain comes under more pressure than at any time in the past 50 years. Recent pasta protests in Italy, tortilla rallies in Mexico and onion demonstrations in India are just a start.

In summary, the International Food Policy Research Institute report cites three main reasons for the shortages that are pushing up food prices. The first is rising consumption as the appetite of fast-growing nations, such as China, is rising as economic booms cause a surge in demand for meat and dairy products. The second is competition from bio-fuels as the cars of the rich are now rivalling the bellies of the poor for corn, cane and edible oils. The third is climate change as global warming is putting pressure on water needed to irrigate crops.

The world has been consuming more than it produces for the past five years and the globalised food industry cannot satisfy global demand. Local food growing and food marketing economies need to be developed to provide more staple foods for consumers and easily accessible markets for producers.

The local food concept is becoming increasingly popular throughout the country as Bord Bia showed in a recent survey. The evidence for this can clearly be seen in the number of farmers' markets — now over 130 — public, private and community markets in this country. I have long been an advocate of farmers' markets and would go as far as saying every good-sized town should have one as part of its food experience. Markets help to re-connect consumers with local food producers, offering small producers a platform to test out their products, innovate and better understand consumer demand. In a very direct way markets can also keep us in touch with the seasonality of nature and the taste of fresh local food.

The experience to date of farmers' markets, farm shops and box schemes, suggests that they can provide wide-ranging and long-term benefits, on both a local and regional level, which can be measured socially, environmentally and economically. These benefits include access to in-season quality fresh food, fewer air miles and, therefore, reduced carbon footprints, more money circulating in local economies, increased employment regionally, the preservation and development of regional specialties and an enhanced level of choice for consumers. Farmers' markets also provide the perfect platform for small food producers to receive extremely valuable feedback directly from the consumer that can lead to improvements in quality and the way the business is run.

In the last year my Department, in conjunction with An Bord Bia, has hosted various regional food fora, which had the objectives of highlighting the importance of small food enterprises, providing guidance for best practice in regional food marketing development and encouraging food entrepreneurship for the creation of national and regional wealth. This approach emphasises bringing together small food producers and local development agencies under one roof for presentations from experts, brief case studies from local food entrepreneurs and question and answer sessions. This approach was successful in that it provided participants with opportunities for networking and showcasing regional produce.

These regional fora cumulated in a national conference last November. This was the first national conference to be organised on the topic of local food and almost 300 people attended, representing producers, retailers, consumers and agencies. The aim of the conference was to raise awareness and understanding of local food as defined by the consumer, highlight the benefits to producers, retailers and the consumer, and offer practical information and advice to those wishing to sell food in their local areas.

I am conscious of the desirability of sourcing food locally. In that context, I have a particular interest in promoting and ensuring the viability of local abattoirs. Under the EU hygiene package, all approved establishments, regardless of size, may now export produce, provided it is accompanied by appropriate certification. The hygiene package ended the previous differentiation between local abattoirs that were only permitted to trade on the domestic market and export-approved abattoirs. My Department is considering whether there is scope for support for abattoirs in regard to specific activities under the marketing and processing scheme operated by the Department.

Direct sales are important for some producers, particularly for horticultural products. However, several factors can limit the development of this channel. One example is access to market stalls and suitable facilities and this was an issue raised at the food fora. As local authorities have powers under the Casual Trading Act, I intend taking this issue up with local authority managers and mayors early in the new year. I will impress on local authority colleagues the need for running water and power points at markets.

I seek to promote a level of consistency for all local authorities in dealing with farmers' markets. I take encouragement from other countries such as France where local authorities take their food remit seriously and provide water and lighting. In Italy, new legislation to improve the already well established farmers' market network is about to be introduced. I hope to have a forum in place in early 2008 that will go through an agenda dealing with the areas of common interest between local authorities and my Department. In this regard, my Department is currently surveying every known farmers' market to ascertain and compile a detailed database of statistics. This information will then be used to guide Government policy at both local and national level.

The importance of farmers' markets has long been recognised by my Department. The organic marketing development group, which is funded by my Department, made a significant contribution to An Bord Bia's Guide to Selling through Farmers' Markets, Farm Shops and Box Schemes in Ireland. This guide is available on An Bord Bia's website and I hope Members will have an opportunity to read it. The purpose of the guide is to assist growers, producers and other food entrepreneurs, both organic and conventional, who wish to set up in business through those outlets. Information and advice is presented in a concise, easy-to-use format, with step-by-step action plans, useful checklists and relevant guidelines. Both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are covered. The guide gives a clear understanding of what is involved in selling through farmers' markets and points traders in the right direction should they require more detailed advice or information.

There seems to be a widespread impression that all produce sold at farmers' markets is organic. The reality is that generally only a minority of stall-holders offer organic food. It is important, therefore, both for consumers and stall-holders, that this distinction is obvious at the markets. Consumers themselves can play a positive role in regard to correct labelling. If they have any doubt whatsoever of the validity of an organic product on sale at a farmers' market, they can ask the seller to show them a copy of the producer's current organic licence. If the consumer is not fully satisfied with the documentation produced, or if the seller is not in a position to provide the necessary documentation, my advice to consumers is to walk away without purchasing the product and notify my Department of their concerns. It is an offence to display produce for sale labelled as organic if it is not certified by a registered organic certification body. My objective is to ensure consumers can have full confidence in the organic food they buy. My Department has assigned additional staff resources to its organic unit and officers of the Department are now systematically inspecting retail outlets, including farmers' markets, to ensure all product identified as organic has been produced fully in accordance with the organic regulations.

The Government is fully committed to developing the organic sector in Ireland. In the programme for Government, we pledged to increase the land area under organic production from the current figure of less than 1% to 5% of total agricultural area by 2012. As the demand for fresh local and organic produce grows, so do the opportunities for local producers. The organic retail market was estimated to be worth some €66 million last year, compared to €38 million in 2003. By 2012, the organic market is expected to be worth €400 million. At present, however, 70% of the organic produce consumed in Ireland has to be imported.

The Irish people have a fundamental choice to make. We can continue to hope other countries will be in a position to meet our demand for organic and non-organic produce, whether onions, asparagus, tomatoes, cucumbers or even potatoes which are sometimes imported into Ireland. Alternatively, we can put in place the options for farmers to diversify. Several farmers I know provide enough produce for local shops and local farmers' markets. Some of these have the capacity to guarantee continuous supply to supermarket chains, others do not. My job is to help all farmers, large and small. We need them all and we need more people to take an interest in growing food in the years ahead. Farmers' markets are a way to help more farmers and growers to get access to the market. When we support or even help to establish a farmers' market, we are helping not just our own community to develop in a way that is healthy for all concerned but, globally, we are doing something small but practical to improve food security in Ireland and worldwide.

Paul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House and congratulate him belatedly on his appointment. It is a portfolio in which he is particularly interested and of which he has personal knowledge given that his constituency of Dublin North was one of the first areas in which horticulture and local organic food production were developed.

The Minister of State concluded his remarks in a sensible fashion. We must keep in mind that the contribution of farmers' markets and the organic sector will never be huge in quantity or percentage terms in the context of our overall food and agribusiness market. It is an important sector and it certainly has room for expansion, but it will not answer all the questions on the future of agriculture and food production. I will shortly attend a meeting of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food where we will discuss Brazilian beef. Here in the Chamber we are discussing local organic food production and farmers' markets, while the Oireachtas committee will discuss the importation of Brazilian beef. Somewhere in between is the solution to which we must all aspire.

It was interesting to hear the Minister of State quote the statistics on world food production. I read some of that report in one of yesterday's newspapers. It is an issue that requires careful consideration, not only by political thinkers and policy makers in this State but also within the European Union. In the last ten years, at European level, we have gone from milk lakes and beef and butter mountains, and the associated political scandals, to the other side of the equation where Europe and the world is barely producing sufficient food to meet the needs of the population. This is a major challenge to address as agricultural land is being turned over in huge percentage terms towards bio-fuel and other alternative uses. We face the danger, at world and even European level, of not being able to produce enough food to satisfy the consumer at home and abroad. We cannot move away from that debate.

In this context we must be realistic with regard to both farmers' markets and organic food production. These are emerging sectors which need to be developed. These markets are a fine showcase for local food productions in many towns, with Darina Allen springing to mind in County Cork as a pioneer of the sector. The Midleton market every Saturday morning is thriving, with people coming from all over Cork and the larger area of Munster. In my own area there is a farmers' market in the Nano Nagle centre in Killavullen which is going very well.

These are very welcome and the local authorities must continue to play a very proactive role in allowing these markets to expand and develop to their maximum potential. With regard to the production of food for these markets, I welcome the progress made in schemes such as the REPS, in which I know the Minister of State has an interest, and the grants for organic farming. At a time when so many young people have moved away from a career in agriculture and when we must reflect on how to again portray agriculture as a viable and vibrant career for young people, further money should be invested in the REPS, organic programmes and the farm installation grant, which would give people a direct cash injection to start up a farming business.

In one sense, we should never need to speak about organic food or the horticultural industry in Ireland because of the quality of our land and the tradition of quality farming. From a European and world perspective, Ireland is almost seen as a green centre of food and horticultural excellence. We should continue to build on that.

The Minister of State will be aware of the suggestion continuously made by my party in recent years regarding a green food label for food produced in Ireland. That is not entirely related to this morning's debate but we must reflect on it to ensure Ireland retains its name for green and safe quality foods in the eyes of European and world consumers.

The Minister of State stated accurately that not all food sold in farmers' markets is organic. His comments were realistic and perhaps the consumer requires further education in that regard. At least we are having this debate at a time when the consumer is much more open to learning about quality food and is more understanding of the concept of food miles and environmental concern and damage.

In a sense, the ball is on the penalty spot and the goalkeeper is gone. It is only a question of putting the ball into the net if we can plan a strategy for our food marketing, our green Ireland image and our quality control in a deliberate and progressive fashion. I am sure the Minister of State will lead the way in that regard.

Some of the statistics are in one way impressive but in another show the size of the market about which we are speaking. Some 35,000 hectares of land are being farmed organically in Ireland, which is probably slightly less than 1% of our landmass. We should aim to significantly increase that proportion of land used for producing food organically. This will not answer all the questions over the future of Irish farming or future food supply but it is an important sector on which we can build.

I am not sure of the accuracy of the statistics but I am advised the organic retail market in Ireland is currently valued at approximately €70 million and rising. That is a welcome figure, as every €1 million of food produced at home and consumed locally is good for the Irish economy. Taking into account the concept of food miles, it is also good for the environment. We welcome the progress made here but, to recall a phrase from another almost forgotten era, there is a lot done, more to do.

I wish the Minister of State well in his endeavours and I know of his personal commitment to the matter. His programmes on green food, food markets and organic food will come about side by side with the global picture of the future production of food for Europe and the world. Organic and farmers' markets, although small in percentage terms, are valuable in other terms. We support them and look forward to the Minister of State progressing and expanding the sector.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chuir roimh an Aire Stáit. Tréaslaím leis arís as ucht an sár-obair atá á dhéanamh aige sa Roinn. It is regrettable that our scheduling today has the Minister of State making a statement on farmers' markets when there is a very interesting meeting of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on the issue of Brazilian imports. Senator Bradford mentioned this and we would all like to attend it as well. Perhaps we could give more thought to the scheduling next time.

I compliment the Minister of State on his success in promoting the green Ireland image and the manner in which he is promoting a healthy-living lifestyle throughout the nation. The Minister of State is winning as there is now strong evidence the public is buying into the green message, and his job may very well be made easier in future. The issue will become consumer-led as people switch on to the idea.

I will not go into too many statistics but a recent report indicates spending on organic food in Ireland averages €40 per month as compared with €29 per month in 2003. Another survey shows three in ten Irish people have consciously changed their eating habits in order to be healthier over a one-year period. Eight out of ten have reduced their intake of fast foods and 75% of the population now indicates it is prepared to pay more for healthier food. We are going in the right direction.

Farmers' markets are a bit like Christmas in that everybody is for them. This does not mean they are perfect in every way and I have some reservations, to which I will refer in conclusion. Overall, they are a powerful and important force for getting across the idea of healthy eating and promoting the concept that we can, in Ireland, be self-sufficient and produce good quality food at local level to be consumed at local level.

In that respect they offer our farmers a very important opportunity to diversify at a time when, as the Minister of State indicated, we are even importing potatoes. They can be a great signal to our agricultural sector that there is an opportunity here and that farmers' markets will provide an outlet.

For years, farmers were irate at the fact they produced good quality foods which were being sold in the major supermarkets and multinationals at significant profits. The farmer could not see how he was getting so little out of the deal. The old-style single convenience store at the street corner is almost a thing of the past and there is no median now. There is either selling in large supermarkets or the welcome new arrival of the farmers' market as a new option for the producer.

It is also a great outlet for people who wish to boost their incomes, be they breadmakers, cheesemakers or other local artisans. They did not have this outlet in the past. It is inspiring creativity in them and helping the household budget because in many cases these people would not be extremely well off and it is an additional source of income for them.

I commend the Department and An Bord Bia on the way in which they are successfully promoting the image of farmers' markets. Last year's RTE series on farmers' markets was excellent and I read with interest that it has been shown on inward flights from the USA. It also has been screened in New Zealand and Australia. I understand that a new series is due to run in April. It shows vision on the part of An Bord Bia to sponsor such a programme. The Department's Agrivision 2015 committee also has some useful proposals for the future. I commend the Minister on organising the series of regional fora on farmers' markets culminating in the conference last month. The Minister of State has stated today that there will be further developments on those lines.

Some 130 markets are now operational with an annual turnover of €28 million, which is not to be sneezed at. While in the overall context of our agriculture budget it is not a large sum, it is growing. The Minister of State was very welcome recently in my town of Listowel when he came to address a food fair organised by Deputy Deenihan. He had a very good robust exchange with local farmers and he certainly gave as good as he got. He had an opportunity to see the Listowel farmers' market before he left. He may wish to consider that market as a useful template for future farmers' markets. It was not without difficulty that it was established. Before I was elected to this Chamber, I was a member of the local authority in Kerry and of Listowel Town Council. We had a long gestation period and a rather bruising exchange with the farmers' market promoters before dialogue commenced. Dialogue is always very good. The chairman of the town council happened to be the chairman of the farmers' market group, Councillor Anthony Curtin of Sinn Féin, who is an excellent man. He got us all together and we made an agreement as to how it would run. It has been a great success and the fears of many of us, including myself, have been more than allayed.

Coming from a business background as a retailer, I know there is always a sense among people who are paying rates — often swingeing rates — service charges etc., which provide for the annual budget of a town, that people who come in on a casual basis may be reaping the profits of the regular traders' endeavours throughout the year. Perhaps there should be a more meaningful contribution by the farmers' markets to the town budget. While I may be straying from the theme of today's debate, the Minister of State mentioned that he would consult with county managers and local authorities, which is good because there have been some difficulties in that regard. There is still some residual resentment in country towns. The regular retailers feel they are subsidising all this and are not getting a fair crack of the whip. The antithesis is probably truer in that farmers' markets are a major attraction, bringing people from far and wide, as Senator Bradford said. Tourists love to make for the farmers' market. The first thing they ask when they reach the hotel is where and when the local market takes place. There is a spin-off for the shops and traders of the town.

The Minister of State touched on the regulation of farmers' markets. In my experience 90% of them are well regulated whether they are self-regulating or it is done with the advice and assistance of Department inspections. I have read that a number of markets are operating at less than a premium level. Perhaps there is a need for some tightening up in the Department's inspections. A tighter regime on labelling may need to be introduced. I understand there is no labelling requirement for loose foods such as cheeses that are cut and prepared before the customer. When it is packaged and supposed to be organic it must be organic. A recent report on the "Ear to the Ground" programme suggested that all is not well in this regard and that foods that are not organic are being sold as organic. While I do not know how widespread that practice is, it would devalue the farmers' market movement if it were allowed to take hold. I am glad to note the Minister of State is observing that. The Consumer Association of Ireland has also made some representations regarding labelling.

The Minister of State referred to the provision of important services such as water by the local authorities. Not all farmers' markets operate in what would be the ideal hygiene regime. Overall there is a need for some tightening. The FARMA group in the UK seems to be quite successful in that regard and it might be appropriate for us to have a similar operation here.

I had not expected the Minister of State to refer to abattoirs and I am delighted he did. It bothered me that approximately ten years ago there was a very serious crack down on country and village abattoirs. Much of it was necessary because we needed to impose the highest standards of hygiene based on European directives etc. However, I believe it went over the top. What truer or more natural passage from the farm to the counter is there than a man who rears his own beef, slaughters, dresses, prepares and sells it? It cuts out everything else we do not want. I would like to see support for the remaining abattoirs. Obviously they must operate under pristine conditions — we would not accept anything less. I hope a new attitude will be taken because too many of them fell by the wayside.

I commend the Minister of State and his Department.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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Ba mhaith liom an Aire Stáit a fháiltiú go dtí an Teach arís. Gabhaim buíochas leis as ucht teacht anseo, mar go raibh mé ag lorg an díospóireacht seo le cúpla mí anuas. Tá mé thar a bheith sásta go bhfuil sé ar siúl. Tá sé ar intinn agam labhairt níos leithne ná na margaí iad fhéin. Labhróidh mé ar ábhair éagsúla a bhaineann le córas bia na tíre seo.

I should begin by agreeing with the point Senator O'Sullivan made. I was in this House when the Abattoirs Act was passed. I believed then and still believe it was the most regressive measure on food safety introduced in my time. Something that was intended to protect our food got rid of traceability. Traceability became an issue only when we eliminated the local abattoirs. I said at the time we should have insisted on certain standards in local abattoirs. However, we chose to introduce a state of the art set of regulations for which only wholesalers could qualify thus putting the small butcher in a local town out of the market. I even tried a fallback position some years later. I suggested the State might help out by building abattoirs in a location so that a butcher could go and kill his own animals in that central abattoir and have his own chilled room or cold room there with his own key. When butchers bring an animal to be slaughtered they can never be 100% sure that what they get back is all their own. Nowadays they have got much cleverer about it. It is an important issue and should be revisited.

The Minister of State might find this somewhat peripheral. Approximately one year after the introduction of the Abattoirs Act we introduced a set of regulations for the establishment of restaurants, which is still intact. They are appalling. They covered everybody's needs, mainly to protect the vintners in case restaurants started selling a pint of stout. The Minister of State should walk into a restaurant in France or another European country, look at it physically and then come back to Ireland. When somebody talks about a rip-off republic in Ireland and that restaurateurs are overcharging, he will see why. I have never seen a restaurant in France with two toilets for instance. Regularly they would not have the additional set of doors we require to get into a toilet. They can produce their food on the table much more cheaply than we can.

There is a quality issue relating to farmers' markets. My mother used to sell fruit and vegetables, among other things. I could walk into the house blindfold the day that the Irish tomatoes came on the market at the start of the new season. They had a beautiful smell which one does not smell any more unless one grows them in the back garden. I know that the Minister of State grows his own and he knows precisely what I am talking about. An Irish tomato can be eaten like an apple, both for the smell of it which is gorgeous, the taste of it which is gorgeous and the colour which is gorgeous. Chefs will say that to slice open a home-grown or backyard-grown Irish tomato is unique. Many chefs in Ireland use tinned tomato for the simple reason they cannot get the desired quality in the tomatoes bought in a shop.

I have raised another issue ad nauseam for the past 15 years in the House. People come back from places like France or Spain with photographs taken in the local market — in places like Patagonia in South America or wherever — which show the vegetables on display in the market. They then wonder why we cannot have the same in Ireland. The reason is quite simple and the answer can be found where I live in north Dublin.

I happen to live in the Minister of State's constituency and we in north Dublin can live off the vegetables that fall through the sorting machines of the local vegetable producers. These are perfectly good cucumbers, peppers and tomatoes which do not meet the size and shape requirements dictated by some boffin in Brussels as being proper for our needs. It is madness that perfectly good, tasty fruit is being dumped because it does not conform to a sorting process and this should be investigated.

I know that the issue of food miles is close to the Minister of State's heart. One of the problems is that much of the food we grew up with and loved is no longer available because it does not travel well. I will cite an example. Anybody of my age or anybody who grew up with an orchard in the back garden or in the field next door, or anyone who ever robbed an orchard in his or her youth, when people still felt it necessary to rob an orchard, will remember that the main apple was Beauty of Bath. It was a lovely striped apple with red and yellow running through it and a bit of red visible when it was bitten into. The problem is the Beauty of Bath apple does not travel well; any contact and it bruises. It is not commercial and therefore it is not available to buy and has disappeared from the market. However, it could be sold in local markets as local produce.

I stand to be corrected but I have not seen home churned butter in any of the farmers' markets I have visited. It is no longer available and it has a distinctive taste. Cím í gconaí ag féachaint ar im ar na seilfeanna, bíonn various types of butter such as salted, unsalted, sweet, or not so sweet. Butter is butter in Ireland. I wonder if we are losing out but I do not know the reason. I am certain we are losing out by not havinghomemade butter available.

I completely agree with a point touched upon by Senator O'Sullivan on the question of the relationship with the local shops and the local authority. This is where a certain amount of regulation could be introduced. Some farmers' markets are better regulated than others. I refer to the milk market in Limerick where stands are bought for a year at modest cost. The market is kept nice and clean and it complies with certain basic regulations without the need for somebody with a clipboard coming around. The market is well run and it pays a fee to the local authority which allows for the fact that a market creates litter and needs to be cleaned up and nobody will object to this practice. Markets also draw people into towns.

I have views on many issues to do with this subject. Local delicacies have been lost over time. The Listowel fair sells what is generally called in Listowel and north Kerry a Kerry pie but it should correctly be called a Dingle pie. This is a mutton pie which is made locally and is a delicacy. Abraimis faoin sliogán dubh, big hard mussels, which are a delicacy in many parts of County Donegal. They could be available as a local delicacy, such as tripe in other parts of the country. There is not an area in Ireland that does not have a local dish and their sale in farmers' markets would make them known and understood by people.

I recently visited a market in Castle Street in Edinburgh, just off the main drag. On a certain day every month, what is called an international market is held; we might call it an immigrant market. Hot food is sold from every country imaginable. This is an element of multiculturalism which would fit in very well with farmers' markets and would allow people to learn more about each other.

This subject was raised by me in this new Seanad when, to the great amusement of the rest of the House, I asked what had happened to Irish mutton. It is no longer possible to buy Irish mutton. The British have realised this is an important issue and Prince Charles is now the patron of the British Mutton Society. I ask Members not to make any jokes about this fact but even the Acting Chairman is laughing. Prince Charles is the patron because he wants to preserve the specific taste of mutton and he is absolutely right.

In the south of France in the Pyrenees, mutton is called mouton as opposed to agneau. The French also sell something that cannot be bought in Ireland, a year-old chicken, named a chapon. These are usually corn-fed and they are all numbered. Roquefort cheese is a farmers' industry in a tiny part of France. Every single roll of cheese is numbered. I recently watched a television programme in which Irish people went to Italy to run a food business on a swap basis. They were in a cheese business where every single roll of cheese was stamped and numbered to allow for traceability. There is much that we could do in this area.

I will conclude by making some brief points. I have a curiosity on a million issues which could never be fulfilled. I refer to one of the aspects of the current situation which drives me mad. I recently visited Birr, County Offaly. I went into the butcher's shop next door to Dooley's Hotel because I usually go into shops when I visit a place and ask about their business. I asked them whether they sell much meat to the hotel next door. It is kind of question we ask in Kerry but people in the midlands are more reticent——

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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You would not get an answer in Kerry.

Joe O'Toole (Independent)
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The butcher told me they were doing a great business with the hotel until they received a visit from the food fascists — I should say, the food Nazis — who told them they could no longer supply the hotel. The fact that they were selling meat to the hotel which might then sell it to me on a plate meant they had become wholesalers and would have to comply with a new set of regulations. I ask the Minister of State to examine this regulation.

The UK takes a different approach with the result that we require a much higher number of core sales for wholesalers. The result is that small butchers on the northern side of the Border are supplying restaurants and hotels in County Donegal while butchers in County Donegal cannot supply their own hotels because they cannot meet the same regulations. This may sound confusing but I do not have the time to explain it in more detail.

The Minister of State will pass what used to be the North Dublin Farmers Co-op on his way here every morning. If he did nothing else in his tenure as Minister of State than to convince farmers of the advantages of belonging to a co-operative and looking after themselves and perhaps taking a lower price in order to facilitate local buying and selling, it would be a good achievement as farmers' co-operatives need a boost. I apologise for being a little disjointed in my contribution.

Déirdre de Búrca (Green Party)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, to the House and I thank him for his presentation. I recognise the role played by the Minister of State in promoting the concept of farmers' markets around the country. His arrival into the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is very timely because there is a public appetite for the emergence and development of a much greater number of farmers' markets. This debate is examining the reason the development of those markets is important and there are many compelling reasons for supporting and encouraging good quality and appropriately regulated farmers' markets.

The Minister of State's commitment to the development of farmers' markets is reflected in the programme for Government. The stated objective is to encourage more direct selling from farmer to customer by restoring and promoting a national network of farmers' markets. Members should work towards such a national network. The Minister of State also referred to his intention to hold a forum early next year to bring together city and county managers to facilitate the exchange of best practice in the development of farmers' markets, which is important. He has recognised that the support given to such markets nationwide varies from one local authority area to another. While there is great support for, and highly successful initiatives regarding, farmers' markets in some areas, in others there is not so much. It is important for the city and county managers, who are in a key role, to recognise the economic and other significant benefits of encouraging farmers' markets in their local authority areas and to do everything possible to try to support the emergence of such markets. Representatives of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food have met representatives of the organisation for local authority management to discuss the issue.

There are many compelling reasons Ireland should support the development of farmers' markets. One has been raised by previous speakers, namely, the issue concerning Brazilian beef. This highlights the reason we should develop local markets at which producers, farmers, growers, brewers, bakers and those the Minister of State described as food entrepreneurs sell local, fresh and in-season produce to the local community. The concerns regarding Brazilian beef highlight some of the disadvantages of the global market and global food supply chain that has developed in recent decades.

Turning to the issue of food miles, people have become increasingly aware of the threat posed by climate change, the issue of energy security and so on. In this context, the food miles that accompany the transportation of products from other parts of the world mean there is a direct impact on climate change and energy efficiency and security. Moreover, the issue of different quality standards applying in producing countries elsewhere in the world also arises. Consumers who buy such products cannot feel certain about the levels of quality assurance, safety standards and so on to which these food products have been subjected.

The local food markets and farmers' markets make much sense because they are the alternative to buying food, the provenance or origins of which may not be completely clear to the consumer in supermarkets. They are much more intimate and a direct link exists between the food's producer and its consumer. Moreover, there is a possibility and opportunity for a relationship to develop whereby consumers can find out more about the food products, the food that is grown in their local area, what is in season, how the food is grown, its nutritional value and some of the benefits of different food products. A wide range of products is on sale in farmers' markets, including organic fruit and vegetables, home-made bread, jams and cakes, farmhouse cheeses, in which Ireland has developed a niche market, local sausages, organic meat, ham and so on. There is great potential in this regard for consumers to educate themselves further about food, good diet, organic produce and how food is grown and developed in their local areas.

As other speakers have noted, farmers' markets revitalise market towns and bring back life to town centres. Recently, I visited Vienna in Austria. While one hardly would describe it as a town, the city centre was characterised by a wide range of street markets, which seemed to attract many people. There was a real buzz on the main streets and I imagine the high street retailers also benefited from the number of people who obviously were attracted into the city centre by such street markets. Farmers' markets can also make an area much more attractive for tourism and can strengthen the local community because participating in and attending local farmers' markets can be a highly enjoyable social occasion and it helps to retain community identity.

There also are many environmental benefits associated with farmers' markets. They reduce wastage and result in fewer food miles because the food has not been transported for thousands of miles to get to the market. In addition, the food sold at farmers' markets requires less processing, packaging and preserving. As previously noted, it educates the public. Those who shop at farmers' markets find out a great deal more about the products they are buying because they can discuss the food with its producer. Farmers' markets also encourage product diversification because they allow the stallholders and food producers to experiment with new food products and to receive direct feedback on what their consumers do or do not like.

The Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, also noted that farmers' markets constitute an important part of the strategy to develop food security and a much greater level of self-sufficiency in food production in Ireland. Given the rising price of oil and the threat of climate change, this should form a key part of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food's strategy in future and the Minister of State is working to ensure this.

A couple of problem areas are linked to farmers' markets and the development of this sector. One has already been mentioned by previous speakers, namely, the issue of regulation. Regulation is often seen as anathema to small food producers because it can hamper, limit and place unfair burdens on them. However, the difficulty with poor regulation or a lack of regulation in the farmers' market sector is the consequential absence of quality assurance or standards that people can be sure are being met. Unfortunately, sometimes traders and food producers may be passing off their food as being home made or organic when this is not the case. Consumers and those who frequent farmers' markets require some form of reassurance that such produce actually is home made or organic. This is in everyone's interests and those local food producers who participate in farmers' markets and who have quality produce to sell have no difficulty with the idea of some form of quality assurance or certification system. This also would protect genuine farmers' markets, as some markets that describe themselves as farmers' markets have sprung up, which more accurately should be described as commercial private markets instead. The Minister of State should comment briefly on this issue and suggest how genuine and authentic farmers' markets can be protected and a distinction made between them and the other form of private market.

The Minister of State also made the important point that local authorities, in supporting the development of farmers' markets, should provide both the space for such markets — usually civic spaces in the centre of towns or villages are the most appropriate — and water and adequate power points, especially where cheeses, fish, meat and so on are being sold and chilling and ventilation facilities are required.

Another issue highlighted by the Minister of State concerned the limited amount of organic produce grown in Ireland. Some farmers' markets have experienced a shortage of food growers and organic vegetable growers. The greater the number of farmers' markets that can be encouraged, the more producers will be encouraged to develop organic produce. This route must be chosen because, as other speakers have noted, the development of Ireland as a centre of food excellence requires the development of our organic sector. I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House today and I look forward to his response.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Am I to understand that Senators Buttimer and McFadden wish to share time?

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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Yes, if that is agreeable.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I again welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Sargent, to the House. The debate this morning is timely and I congratulate the Minister of State on his initiative last week when he launched the regulations. While it is important to have regulations, it also is important to take cognisance of the fact that Ireland must travel a long way. In his opening remarks, the Minister of State highlighted the issue regarding the impending crisis faced by the world regarding the food we consume. It is important that everyone buys into the concept of being traceable and accountable in respect of the food we consume and I commend the Minister of State in this regard.

I also congratulate the Minister of State on setting up the meeting with the local authorities in the new year. In her closing remarks, Senator de Búrca alluded to the importance of ensuring that casual traders or hawkers do not invade and take over farmers' markets, which should be confined to being markets for farmers. I appeal to the Minister of State to ensure this will be the case. Were hawkers and traders to come in and take over, it would be wrong and would undo all the good that has been done thus far. It is important that we have farmers' markets.

Senator O'Toole referred to local delicacies, an area in which I know the Minister of State is interested. The English Market in Cork is not strictly a farmers' market but it is an outlet for locally produced meats, poultry, dairy products and fish. The Faneuil Hall model in Boston has a food fair. Perhaps the Department can examine the possibility of having the same type of market in Dublin or in other regional towns because it is important that we sell the message that home-grown, organic Irish food is second to none. It is important that we do this.

When I was growing up, my late grandmother used to supply eggs to local shops. Traceability was not an issue and the eggs were good. The hens were cared for almost better than ourselves. The whole community knew from where their food was coming. It is important that we return to that situation. Senator Bradford referred to the green food label, to which the Minister of State is well disposed. I appeal to him to progress this issue.

Since Darina Allen started farmers' markets, they have been a great success. My nieces go to one with their parents and last Saturday a constituent of mine went to one to buy red cabbage for her Christmas dinner. That is the kind of mentality that is now evident. People are sourcing their food at these outlets which provide direct access for consumers to local, fresh food producers. We have to market this approach and introduce a labelling system. Members of all parties now recognise the importance of this issue.

The Irish Examiner revealed last year that some Irish supermarkets bought onions from New Zealand. Taste in food is important, as we all know. The Minister of State is a gardener but I do not have green fingers. There is an onus on the farming community and producers to produce quality foods. There is no comparison between the fresh food we get in farmers' markets and the produce available in supermarkets. We need to market quality foods. Homemade bread, cheese, organic and free range meat and other products should not be lost to this generation. I urge the Minister of State to target schools through the civics programme or transition year modules because, as Senator O'Sullivan stated, we must inculcate in young people the importance of proper food. The most important thing we can do is pass on this legacy to future generations.

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Sargent. This is my first opportunity to applaud him on his initiatives and the promotion of farmers' markets. I wish to concentrate on three issues. The first is what the Minister of State has referred to as the local food concept, the second is regulation and the third is food labelling.

We have an excellent organic market in Athlone. People do not want to eat processed foods. I acknowledge the work of producers. I am aware some bakers start baking at 2 a.m. to have fresh produce available for the following day. A significant amount of work is involved over and above what most people realise. Many producers also travel significant distances. Some people come to Athlone from as far away as Ballinasloe in County Galway and from Longford.

I would die rather than buy a strawberry in the middle of November. We should not do that. One of the best aspects of a local market is that one can buy local produce seasonally. Perhaps the Minister of State can examine how to make people more aware of this issue.

Food packaging is also reduced when one shops at a local market. One can bring a shopping bag and not get all the glitzy plastic and cardboard packaging. This is an important consideration in terms of waste management. The Minister of State should encourage the use of less packaging.

Senator O'Sullivan referred to local abattoirs, as did other Senators. My local butcher still kills animals and traceability is not an issue as we know from where the produce is coming.

I tabled a motion at our local town council on the designation of an area for the farmers' market. However, the approach locally is haphazard. Is it possible for the Minister of State to regulate or legislate in this area? It may be helpful to meet with city and county managers and town clerks but more is required because the outcome is dependent on whether the individuals concerned have goodwill towards farmers' markets, which is not always the case. The provision of parking, lighting and water is important for farmers' markets. A French market comes to Athlone once a year, which is a great attraction also, and perhaps this is something on which we can expand.

The Minister of State said people should ask about food labelling but it is difficult for consumers to challenge producers. Legislation on a green label is necessary.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I am no expert.

Phil Prendergast (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister of State to the House and I thank him for the efforts he put in years ago in Clonmel when we were starting up the farmers' market in respect of the Main Guard. While it was not the eventual location, his considerable efforts were appreciated.

We would like the farmers' market concept to be expanded throughout the country because it gives farmers, organic and non-organic, an opportunity to sell directly to the consumer. They get a better price for their produce than the supermarkets are willing to pay. They also provide an opportunity for consumers to get a better deal, and to get keener prices for fresher produce in many cases. Consumers can also speak directly with the suppliers and therefore traceability is not such an issue. They provide a social outlet in many towns and villages also. Clonmel is very lively on a Saturday morning, as is Cahir. I welcome that and the opportunity to meet people. I have seen some people canvassing——

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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Never.

Phil Prendergast (Labour)
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——but I would not do that.

Farmers' markets have a great potential to bring life and vibrancy into communities and that is reflected in many ways. They provide spin-offs to other commercial activities such as restaurants and pubs and preserve money in the local economy. That is welcome but I would not like farmers' markets to be limited to selling only organic produce because the sub-text on the Irish Farmer Markets website reads "organic products for you". It will be a mistake if the development of farmers' markets takes us further down that road.

I would visit food markets in whatever country I visit. There are farmers' markets throughout Europe but they are not exclusively organic yet they are all very successful. I check out the market in every country I visit. I love to see the local produce and find out the way it is cooked. The real taste of food in the locality is often a pleasure to experience. It gives a good insight into local culture and the atmosphere is wonderful.

I enjoy visiting the markets here and support them. I shop in supermarkets as well and try to buy local food in season but recently I spoke to a baker who told me there is no requirement to indicate if the cellophane wrapper on a product has some sort of preservative on it. That is a matter of concern to me because if it is a requirement to list the ingredients in terms of preservatives, there should also be a requirement to indicate if a preservative is sprayed on the wrapper to have an input into the freshness of the food.

Organic produce is significantly more expensive than non-organic, it is sometimes 20% to 30% more expensive. That cannot be justified because consumers are being ripped off with that level of premium. Organic food is wonderful. It has a different taste. It is easy to differentiate between a battery produced egg and a free range organic egg although a survey indicated one could not tell the difference between organic and non-organic carrots. Free range organic chicken, which I buy occasionally, is expensive but worth the cost because one knows what one is getting.

A guest chef on the television programme "The Restaurant" went out of her way to select free range organic chicken for her chosen chicken dish but Tom Doorley, the well-known food critic, suggested she would have improved her dish if she had not done that. With the right cook, animals properly killed and properly grown, stored and cooked food of whatever origin, be it organic or non-organic, will provide delicious results on the plate. Women, of course, are experts in that regard.

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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Yes, of course.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I will not argue.

Phil Prendergast (Labour)
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There are no risks from non-organic food, and perhaps only marginal benefits, if the proper procedures are followed. If research should establish, and it has not yet been done, that there is a more beneficial nutrient in organic carrots than in regular carrots, for example, what will we do? Everyone does not eat the same amount of carrots and therefore quantity of intake is also a factor. Nutrients can be picked up from numerous origins — it is about the overall dietary intake of nutrients — but obesity is becoming endemic. I recall going into Clonmel High School to talk to the boys about diet, exercise and healthy living. It had quite an impact. I advised them that instead of having a breakfast roll at lunch time, they should try fresh meat or salad produce. The shopkeeper who supplied the breakfast rolls was not too pleased.

What safeguards or controls are in place? Can anybody remember when the character Dinny Byrne in "Glenroe" decorated the eggs with straw? That type of thing occurs and we must monitor it. The product might not always be as fresh as is claimed. There must be greater controls to protect the organic consumer. There is no such thing as bad food. In a properly regulated environment all food should be safe for human consumption. Food is good. The key to healthy living will always be a balanced diet with due attention to the need for exercise.

I am in favour of farmers' markets. The more there are, the better. Every encouragement should be given to their development, and work is being done in that regard by bodies such as Bord Bia, the Leader programme and various Departments. Most of the work locally, however, is carried out on promotion and that is done almost entirely through voluntary effort at local level. We cannot undervalue the level of voluntary effort being made throughout the country. It is to be lauded and applauded. Some form of direct support should be made available to the people organising the markets for advertising through the local media. It would be a great assistance to them, even though there is usually great awareness among local people of when the markets are being held.

We should expand the markets but not make them elitist. In addition, they should not only be for organic produce. Consumers should be able to make their choice.

Pearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit go dtí an Teach leis an gceist seo a phlé. Sílim nach gcloisfimid Seanadóir ar bith ag rá nach bhfuil buntáistí ag baint leis na margaí feirme. Tá sé iontach soiléir go bhfuil buntáistí ag baint leo. Tá an tuairim céanna ag gach éinne. Tá fadhbanna uafásacha ag na margaí áitiúla, áfach. Tá daoine ar nós feirmeoirí ag iarraidh na margaí seo a bhunú. Tá cuid de na fadhbanna sin luaite ag Seanadóirí cheana féin agus ba mhaith liom iad a phlé.

In a debate on the merits of farmers' markets one is unlikely to hear anyone across the political divide disagree that the markets have substantial merits. The arguments in this regard have been made by other Senators. The key issue is that small farmers in this country are under serious financial pressure. Many of their farms are not viable. The markets facilitate direct contact between them and the buyer, cutting out the middle man. I had a conversation recently with a farmer from north Dublin. He was told by a large supermarket chain that he would have to grow, pick and deliver his heads of lettuce for 40 cent per head. If he could not do that, the supermarket chain said it would import the produce from abroad. The heads of lettuce were being sold in the supermarket for €1.60. If there was a national chain of farmers' markets, as Senator de Búrca mentioned, that farmer, who is obviously struggling to provide quality produce at that price, would be able to ensure his livelihood and the viability of his farm.

I am glad there are farmers' markets operating in the north west. Indeed, the most recent one to start operating in Donegal town is a cross-Border initiative between the Strabane farmers' market and farmers in the Donegal town electoral area. They started this excellent initiative by setting up the farmers' market in The Diamond and it has gone from strength to strength. They told me about the difficulties they encountered when they were preparing to embark on this process more than a year ago. There were difficulties with the local authorities, with getting funding and with different officials about the site and the arrangements that had to be put in place for car parking and so forth.

We need a properly planned, systematic approach to facilitating farmers' markets throughout the island. It must become easier for people to embark on this process. I have spoken to the people who sell their produce at the market and many of them would never have dreamed a number of years ago that they would be able to grow their own produce and sell it to their neighbours and the tourists who come to the town. It was owing to the persistence of a number of individuals who saw the benefits of farmers' markets for the local economy and for the consumer in terms of the availability of fresh produce and its nutritional content.

The markets are also a benefit to the environment. If there was a national network of farmers' markets, the produce grown on local farms would only have to be transported a short distance to reach the consumer. Otherwise, the produce is transported large distances which has a negative impact in terms of carbon emissions.

Given the Minister of State's experience in this area, I have no doubt he will take this issue seriously. I urge him to provide more incentives and more education on the benefits of farmers' markets. I hope this debate is a starting point in that regard. He should also try to make it simpler for those who wish to embark on the process of starting a farmers' market. Funding must be provided. There is a certain amount of funding from various schemes but there should be additional funding. I have visited a number of farmers' markets and the participants are still raising funds to provide basic facilities such as overhead canopies and the like. Farmers who are growing produce should not have to concentrate on that or the other difficulties for farmers' markets but on the quality of their produce.

Another issue is the fact that there are different regulations in the North and South. Perhaps the Minister would try to harmonise them on both sides of the Border. I am sure he will get the full co-operation of the agriculture Minister in the North in that regard.

Paul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I understand the Minister will deal with questions from the Members.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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I will be happy to.

Ned O'Sullivan (Fianna Fail)
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One of my favourite stalls in the farmers' markets is the one selling olives. Clearly, olives have not been grown in Kerry for some time. Where does that fit in with the concept of farmers' markets being an outlet for local produce? My second question is probably more appropriate for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley. I have been a member of a town council for the last 25 years and the council has jealously guarded the rights of people to trade in Listowel under the Casual Trading Act. We understood there was protection for the town under that Act. I have a suspicion, however, that the Casual Trading Act has been undermined to some extent by the advent of farmers' markets. There was a move in the Department to revive old markets, whereby markets that had not died out for more than ten years or so could be reactivated. We were fearful this would lead to a free-for-all and that anybody could come into the town selling blankets and God knows what. Will the Minister of State consult the Minister on that issue?

Nicky McFadden (Fine Gael)
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In my contribution I asked the Minister to deal with the regulation of markets. I urge him to expedite that.

Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)
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Ar dtús báire, ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil le gach éinne a labhair i rith na díospóireachta seo. Tá sé an-tábhachtach dom tuaraimí na Seanadóirí a chloisint. Mar is eol don Teach, beidh mé ag bualadh le bainisteóirí contae agus cathrach san athbhliain. Buailfidh mé chomh maith le cathaoirligh, cléirigh baile agus iad siúd atá i bhfeidhm ar na comhairlí baile, os rud é go bhfuil ról lárnach acu i gcur chun cinn na margaí feirme.

I will answer the specific questions asked by Senators and then I will deal with other questions raised in a more general way. I will try to do justice to these questions while not keeping anyone too long. I could talk about this for much longer than I have time to, so I will try to curtail what I have to say in the interests of practicality.

Senator O'Sullivan mentioned the so-called olive factor. This is something which has led to a certain amount of cynicism about the term "farmers' market" and suggests that it is being very loosely interpreted in certain areas, almost to the point of being meaningless. With that in mind, I have asked my officials, whom I thank for being here today, to contact with the UK body FARMA when organising the forum with the local authorities in January. This body has about ten years' experience in organising farmers' markets in the interests of local producers and local consumers, thereby ensuring development of the local food economy.

Depending on the circumstances of each area — there is no template that fits every area — a radius is defined around each market and producers from that area sell their products. I am not sure whether the defined area in this country will include the 32 counties or will be more local, but we will have to consider this based on the reality. In the UK, the radius is often 30 miles. That allows for a certain amount of scope for producers to attend different markets whose areas overlap, but it also means that markets are clearly defined as indigenous markets which are distinctive and reflect the character of their areas — the smells, the tastes, the products and the personalities. This will certainly address the olive factor.

The Casual Trading Act was mentioned. As an Opposition Deputy I was very aware of the need to avoid a loss of historic trading rights because they are, in many ways, the basis of our market towns and the culture of food production. Many of these rights are now preserved because they were exercised before the 1 May deadline. It is for the local authorities to consider maturely how they can balance the needs of retailers — which are critical, as I will be the first to admit, because they are the people paying the rates, without which our local authorities would be very impoverished — with those of the markets. There are many local factors which are not addressed by retailers. There can be a synergy between farmers' markets and the wider retail sector.

I will address Senator McFadden's question in the more general part of my remarks because the area of regulations is quite large. That is why I am consulting various bodies to ensure we get the balance right so that we can introduce necessary legislation without making it too onerous.

I agree with Senators Bradford, O'Sullivan and others who mentioned the important issue, in which I am interested, of the need to ensure our producers are not disadvantaged by imports that can avoid the rigorous regulations to which we must adhere. The Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is dealing with this today. I do not want to double up on work being done by the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, as she is the person attending the Council of Ministers and dealing most directly with the Commission. I hope she is impressing upon the Commission the need for our beef industry, in particular, to be given fair treatment and not disadvantaged. I realise there is a parallel process and as Senator O'Sullivan said, it is to be hoped our timetables will not conflict in this way next time. This is an important issue which is different from that being dealt with at the committee and is valid in its own right. I take the points that were made.

Senator Prendergast mentioned that not all farmers' markets must be organic. I made that clear in my statement. They are not exclusively organic or non-organic. There are different stall holders with products which may or may not be organic. That is the diversity which adds to the attractiveness of farmers' markets. It is not a one-size-fits-all solution.

I accept Senator Bradford's point about a green labelling system. There is much debate in the EU about labelling. There are certain regulations that require, for example, that State money is not used to promote a Guaranteed Irish-type scheme. We might argue about this or disagree with it but it is unfortunately the legal situation. Private money can be used for such a scheme and for this reason the Restaurants Association of Ireland and other bodies provide labels that refer to produce as coming from Ireland. We encourage this but we cannot use taxpayers' money in a way that would be breaking the law. I will refer to this again later as other Senators referred to it as well.

Senator O'Sullivan referred to the balance between markets and the retail sector. In this country the balance is very much in favour of the retail sector for food. Of all fresh produce sold, 80% is through the large multiples. That is a disproportionately large percentage compared with other European countries. It is evident to anyone who has visited Italy or France that the market culture there is well established. In the case of France, it goes back to Napoleonic times. Markets are large movers of food and not a small element of the overall market as in this country. Thus, there is room for more selling through local shops and markets while maintaining a vibrant retail sector, especially large supermarkets. In France and Italy supermarket chains such as Coop Italia, Carrefour and Monoprix manage to co-exist with a vibrant market culture.

Senator O'Sullivan referred to abattoirs, as did Senator O'Toole, who wants a system of State abattoirs. I mentioned EU regulations before, but we must take cognisance of the potential as well as the limitations of the rules under which we operate as an EU member state. At the moment I am considering ways of supporting local abattoir development in a practical way and ensuring abattoirs are viable. It is quite costly to establish an abattoir. I recently visited one in Wexford and in discussions with the owner we reckoned the cost of getting one up and running was €250,000. One would need to have a guaranteed throughput, long-term viability, and a friendly bank manager. The realities for local abattoirs require us to put our thoughts together to ensure their continued viability and the broadening of their networks.

I am aware of the situation referred to by Senator O'Toole. I recently visited a farm in my constituency at which harvesting was in full swing. Its 180 acres of sprouts were to be harvested before Christmas, the main time of year at which sprouts are sold, but there was a great deal of waste because the vegetable's size was specified. It could not be too large or too small and it needed to be the right colour. If it was too white, it was rejected. These specifications come not from Brussels but from the large multiples, which are of the researched opinion that consumers buy a product only if it is a certain colour and size. The multiples' requirements are so narrow that there is a significant amount of wastage. As Senator O'Toole stated, therein lies the potential for the local market.

Food habits change, as witnessed in respect of potatoes, to which Senator Carty referred in a nostalgic fashion. The market for what were reject potatoes but that are now called, affectionately and successfully, "baby potatoes" has grown considerably and quickly. We reject the sweetest and most attractive size of sprouts, namely, the sprouts at the top of the stems. They and those at the bottom go to waste while the perfectly correct sizes in the middle of the stems are sold. One grows a three foot tall plant, but the only marketable part is a certain amount in the middle. In many ways, this is a reflection on the marketing to which consumers respond by buying products as if they are the only ones available.

The market has significant potential to test whether a product rejected because of its appearance can be sold. Sometimes, the reject looks better, but that is a matter of opinion. The same is the case in respect of onions. A farmer in my constituency ploughed a large tonnage of onions because of sizes the supermarkets did not want. Good food could have been sold in the local market.

Senator O'Toole stated that we have one type of butter. It is ironic that, given his pride in the Kingdom, Kerrygold is the dominant brand in the international butter market and has been successful thanks to the Irish Dairy Board and the producers. Ireland does not produce any organic butter, however, which is a large gap in the market. If anyone knows someone who has tried it, he or she should let me know. I would be the first to agree with Senator O'Toole that the diversity of cultures in Ireland allows for significant potential in terms of local dishes. Producer groups will be an important part of farming and I am working in respect of Senator O'Toole's point.

Senator de Búrca referred to Brazilian beef and local brands. Instead of patriotism, this should be a question of different products. To use the car analogy, people do not buy the cheapest car. They buy a particular advertised product because it is different. Sometimes, it is far from being the cheapest car, but it can be successful. Our beef must be differentiated from Brazilian beef in the same way as a car must be distinguishable in many ways other than by its Irish origin. The Senator referred to the farm adviser addressing the Department and local authorities.

Regarding Senator Buttimer's point on Cork and the Munster region, I am familiar with the English Market, which is a good and successful model for large cities and towns. While a weekly market is often appropriate to a medium or small town, a six-day market would be possible in Galway, Dublin or Cork. It is horses for courses and it is important we recognise that one size does not fit all. I dispute the Senator's claim that he does not have green fingers because everyone can grow. It is a question of giving it a go, which is what I did.

He referred to schools, but I do not want to address that matter in detail because it is a significant issue. I will introduce food-growing kits in schools next year as part of the United Nations international year of the potato. I want schools to be aware of and experience Ireland's tradition in growing potatoes.

Senator McFadden discussed the Athlone organic market, but I am not sure it is entirely organic. I hope stall holders distinguish clearly between which of them are organic and non-organic, which is the way it should be. The Senator said the food came from Galway and Ballinasloe, indicating the kind of radius that must be taken into account if we are not to be exclusionary or impractical when discussing regulations.

I have been working on the seasonal issue. Every month, I publish a press release emphasising the particular seasonality of food. While it is essential for our growers, some people do not believe it is important, but I am glad Senator McFadden does. Austria, France and Italy are as proud and cognisant of their food seasons as we are of Christmas, Easter and St. Patrick's Day. There are pumpkin, goose and asparagus seasons and one is considered odd if one looks for asparagus outside that time.

Senator Carty referred to Claremorris and Ballyhaunis. While I know they are markets, they are not listed on the farmers' market list. Senator Carty and I can discuss the issue with Bord Bia to ensure an up-to-date list of available markets.

I know Senator Prendergast from my dealings with farmers' markets in Clonmel. She referred to free range and organic, but it is important to bear in mind that they are not the same. There are different regulations. Antibiotics can be used in free range produce, for example, but not in organic produce.

Tá áthas orm go raibh an Seanadóir Ó Dochartaigh ag labhairt ar an ábhar seo. Bhí mé i dTír Conaill an tseachtain seo caite. Cé go bhfuil gá le fógraíocht, caithfear an fhógraíocht atá ann faoi láthair a aithint freisin. Tá liosta de margaí feirme ar an suíomh idirlíon atá ag Bord Bia. Is fiú go mór an liosta sin. Aontaím go gcaithfimid cur le sin.

The support I want to give to farmers' markets is intended to help local authorities in whatever way we can. The Department is considering putting up finger signposts, ensuring canopies are available and providing for the infrastructure to make markets viable, as is the case in other countries. Ag an am céanna, beidh mé ag labhairt leis an Aire talmhaíochta ó Thuaidh, Michelle Gildernew, mar a bhí mé cheana, mar gheall ar na forbairtí ar an dá thaobh den Teorainn. Beimid ag dul ar aghaidh le sin ó Thuaidh agus ó Theas, le cúnamh Dé.

I will conclude because the debate is drawing to a close. In the wider context and from speaking with business owners and communities, there is no doubt that farmers' markets have a notable positive effect on local businesses and communities. Recent research has shown that every €10 spent at a farmers' market results in a net income of €24 for the local community. There is a spin-off for the local communities and retailers as a result of money being spent at farmers' markets. It has been estimated that the trade for other businesses increases by up to 30% when a farmers' market is run in a town.

The artisan food market has become busy. The specialties sector, including organics, is growing at 10% per annum fuelled by consumers seeking variety, well-being, provenance and taste. Consumer protection and confidence are essential elements in the development of farmers' markets and other direct selling routes.

The time for taking stock of the sector has come. It has developed to a point but has not had the benefit of official endorsement. It has developed in an inconsistent fashion. As Darina Allen said at a recent conference, in some local authority areas farmers' markets are funded; in others, they are fined. These inconsistencies must be addressed. I will be mindful of this debate when discussing the matter with local authorities. I will make the Official Report of this debate available for county and city managers, mayors and cathaoirligh of local authorities to show them there is a democratic mandate and the Oireachtas has an interest in the development of farmers' markets at local level.