Seanad debates

Thursday, 18 October 2007

10:30 am

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on the role of the Government and the IDA in promoting Ireland as an attractive location for inward investment, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 2.30 p.m. if not previously concluded; and No. 2, motion re proposal for a Council regulation on the extension of EU social security regulations, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 3.30 p.m. if not previously concluded, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes. Senators may share time.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Fine Gael)
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I have a problem with today's Order of Business with regard to the motion on social security. It is another exercise of an option by the State and concerns agreeing to social security extension to third country nationals. It is not being discussed in any Dáil committee and we have had no information on the budgetary implications of this measure. Other countries have been discussing this since May. The UK stated it is concerned about the implications of extending its health service to the number of people involved, as did a number of other parliaments.

Yesterday, Senator Regan raised the reform treaty which we will ask people to support early next year. Today, we have a serious motion on social security at EU level. Fine Gael does not oppose the points made in the measure. However, we have had no information or discussion on the budgetary implications of this serious measure but the House is expected to support it. It is inappropriate to introduce it for one hour in the Dáil and the Seanad.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Will the Leader initiate a debate with the Minister for Education and Science on third level grants? We receive numerous queries on this matter and a new issue is that recently retired people are deprived of grants for their student children because they were prudent enough to have saved for an SSIA. The Government addition to the SSIA is taken into consideration and people are deprived of grants. To make a bad decision worse, the withholding tax is not taken into consideration and is included in the calculation which deprives their children of a grant. Other issues also arise and I considered tabling an Adjournment motion on the matter. Members should be aware of this matter and I would welcome a debate on it.

On many occasions, I raised the matter of the need for a debate on the west. I wish to bring to the attention of the House two developments there. In recent days we read in the newspapers of the development through NUI, Galway of a company which produces sustainable and practical wave energy which produces 1 kilowatt output. This is an extraordinary development which we should discuss.

In the University of Limerick waste derived fuel has been developed. In the context of incineration this is the way forward. It is a completely enclosed system of dealing with waste with no smells, heat, incineration or methane. The methane is captured and used as an alternative fuel. It deals powerfully and economically with waste. This is not green wellies and tweeds. It is real industry developed in the west of Ireland. We should recognise it and know more about it. Will the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources come before the House to discuss advances in these areas?

Photo of Dominic HanniganDominic Hannigan (Labour)
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I was concerned to see reports that PRSI contributions will not be enough in three years' time to pay for pension benefits and that the pensions system will move into deficit. The clock is running out in regard to what we do about our pensions. In 40 years' time, when many of us in this Chamber will hope to enjoy our retirement, there will be just two workers for every retiree. That compares to the current position of six workers for every retiree. This is particularly worrying because the IMF stated yesterday that growth rates for Ireland are not as good as it had hoped for and its forecasts for next year are also down. This will obviously compound the whole issue of how we pay for pensions. The latest green paper on pensions does not move the position on, it is more of the same. I note that the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Cullen, said there is no cause for panic. I believe it is time we addressed the issue of pensions as a matter of urgency. I ask the Leader to convey my views to the Minister.

An independent report yesterday by the Telecoms research company, Telecompare, suggests that broadband costs in Ireland have increased by 25% in the past 12 months. That compares to reductions throughout the rest of Europe. We need to consider this in conjunction with yesterday's announcement by Babcock & Brown, who own Eircom, that they expect to see a re-evaluation of Eircom which will mean it is worth double its current value; that means a doubling in the price of shares. If shareholders are to gain we need to ensure customers do not lose out. Broadband access is essential for economic growth for inward development. I note the comments of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, in today's newspapers that he wants to see a significant reduction in the cost of broadband to consumers. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister, Deputy Ryan, to come into the House and outline his proposals for a national broadband strategy.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Green Party)
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I support the call by Senator O'Toole for a debate on energy related matters. The company in Galway which is working on the wave energy initiative, Ocean Energy, is Cork-based but it is carrying out its tests in Galway.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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That must be the first time.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Green Party)
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We are far too passive in Cork. Apparently the waters do not bob up and down enough. The Senator's second issue in regard to refuse was one on which the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government went to great pains to point out as Government policy in the House last evening. I would appreciate if Senator O'Toole explained that concept to some Members on the other side of the House.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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His comments are ambiguous.

Photo of Dan BoyleDan Boyle (Green Party)
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They find it difficult to understand the concept. In regard to the call for a debate on the green paper on pensions, which I called for yesterday, and which was called for today by Senator Hannigan, the sooner the better such a debate takes place because there are wide-ranging issues included in the green paper that are worthy of further discussion.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I ask the Leader the reason for the lack of legislation in the House. It is extraordinary that in two days there has not been a single item of legislation on the Order Paper for discussion. It is not as if there are not items of legislation that could be discussed. There is a civil partnership Bill, a climate change Bill and another Bill from the Independents, all of which could be discussed.

What has happened to the auctioneering Bill? About five years ago Senator O'Toole and I raised that issue in the House and scored a considerable success in that the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform set up a commission to examine the malpractices of auctioneers. The result of that was the preparation of legislation which was due to come before the House in the last session but that did not happen. This is an obvious case of abuse taking place in the real world which we could resolve by taking measures which we have promised to take. The cowboys in the auctioneering world are still having a field day. The House should note that the delay has not been explained, although the legislation was promised. The House has no legislation to discuss. I gather the Bill has been drafted and is ready but there is, and there remains, a very strong auctioneering lobby group in this and the other House. I hope the delay is not related to the number of auctioneers in the Dáil and the Seanad. I would like a specific answer as to when this legislation will be introduced in order that we can discuss it. I also want an assurance that it will be a Seanad Bill.

Photo of Fiona O'MalleyFiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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I echo the points made by Senator Ross. I would like to think we were working hard with a good deal of legislation and plenty of time for it to be discussed, particularly the changes in the auctioneering field.

In regard to a call yesterday and last week for a debate on the family, if it is appropriate and deemed necessary to discuss the family, that is fine, but it is odd that the Legislature should discuss the matter. What I found disturbing were the preferences expressed yesterday. Surely, as long as individuals and family units, whether traditional or non-traditional, are functioning it is not the job of the State to interfere and decide a preference one way or the other.

I reiterate the calls in regard to the Crisis Pregnancy Agency and its difficulty in getting CURA to honour its service agreement. While I know the Minister has been quietly trying to get it to honour this agreement, it is an absolute disgrace that it has signed an agreement to give non-judgmental information and is now refusing to do so while continuing to receive public moneys. This is a scandal. The Crisis Pregnancy Agency was set up to minimise the number of crisis pregnancies. Included in that agency is a body that refuses to co-operate and yet is in receipt of State money. I would like the Minister to come into the House and explain why she has not had success in having this resolved. I echo the calls made last week for a debate on the matter. When public money is being used for a certain prejudice it is not appropriate and is a matter that should be debated.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Labour)
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I wish to raise two issues. I call on the Minister for Transport to come into the House — I know we had a discussion on Shannon last week — to discuss overall access and aviation policy. We are heading into the most important time of the year for tourism because it is the planning season. We need to discuss how people will get into this country. The industry is concerned in regard to access because promotion by the tourism agencies can be aligned only to how one gets into the county, and access to this country in particular areas is of concern. Obviously the mid west is one such area. In November 2005 the then Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, announced the open skies agreement and called for the development of a tourism and economic plan in order that he could offer support, based on that plan, which reported in June 2006. The support for the mid west, based on the open skies agreement——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Labour)
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Yes.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader may be in a position to give the Senator a reply.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Labour)
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Thank you. Just in case the Minister gets the idea to announce funding for this plan, as well as funding as a consequence of the loss of the Shannon-Heathrow route, one cannot spend the same money twice. He should lose any notions of doing so in the near future, especially since he has not been brought up to speed by his Department on decisions made about access. If there were ever an example of "Yes Minister" that is one. To be six weeks in a Department and not be told about one of the biggest decisions to face——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot have a debate on the matter now. We will wait for another day.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Labour)
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Another matter is of concern to the social fabric of the country. We need the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism to come to the House to inform Members what he will do to prevent a strike in the GAA by the Gaelic Players Association. I am not sure whether any other Member of the House is a member of the GPA, but I am an associate member. Unfortunately my days of gracing the hurling fields have long passed. I might need to make a comeback. Obviously the GAA has a great role in the social fabric of the country and the community. However, I have spoken to some of the members and we are very close to a strike. A number of months ago in the last Dáil the previous Minister——

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot drift into a debate on the matter. Is the Senator asking the Minister to come to the House?

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Labour)
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There must be some way to decide on the funds. I cannot see why the Irish Sports Council cannot do it. I accept there is an issue regarding professionalism, which nobody wants. There must be some way to deal with this. Surely it would just mean that on 1 May each year the names of 30 players would be handed into the Revenue and it would be dealt with in that way. It should be a simple task and I cannot understand why the Minister cannot facilitate it.

Photo of Brian Ó DomhnaillBrian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail)
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Ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh do cheist na Gaeilge sna Sé Contae, go háirithe maidir leis an fhadhb ann faoi láthair atá le réiteach, sé sin stádas oifigiúil a thabhairt don Ghaeilge sna Sé Contae. Bhí cruinniú inné idir an tAire Gnóthaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta, an Teachta Éamon Ó Cuív, agus an tAire Poots i gContae Fhear Manach. Tuigim go raibh plé ar an ábhar seo agus go mbeidh sé á phlé arís an tseachtain seo chugainn ag cruinniú Thuaidh-Theas a bhéas ar siúl.

I refer to the current dilemma in which the Irish language finds itself in the North of Ireland and the comments of the Minister there with responsibility for cultural affairs, Mr. Poots, regarding the development of the proposed Irish language Act in the Six Counties. It is vital that the people in the North of Ireland are given the opportunity to have the language officially recognised on a legal basis. It is important for us to assist the people of Northern Ireland in ensuring that the Irish language exists in an official capacity. I would welcome the call by our colleague the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, earlier today and yesterday evening for a compromise to be reached on the matter. I understand that Irish language and Ulster Scots will both be discussed at a North-South meeting in Newry next week. I call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, to give an update to the House on the outcome of that meeting and also to have a general debate in the House in the near future on the Irish language in the Thirty-two Counties — the Republic and the North. It is important to our cultural identity.

I pay tribute to the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, for his overwhelming commitment to the language since his first appointment as a Minister of State in 1997. No other Minister has given as much commitment energy and time to the development of the language and we in this House should provide him with the opportunity to outline what he has done and what the future holds.

Photo of Joe O'ReillyJoe O'Reilly (Fine Gael)
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I support the calls to the Leader for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to come to the House for a debate on energy. It would be timely and all the items already mentioned are meritorious. Perhaps the Leader would include the proposition that a comprehensive grant system be introduced to encourage a modern system of insulation of all houses. I understand the cost would be approximately €2,500 to €3,000 per house. An incentive to kick-start the process and get people to do it would be very beneficial. It would ultimately save considerable money by way of a possible fine for non-compliance with the Kyoto Protocol. Having such a system of insulation in all dwellings would eliminate approximately 12.5% of our carbon emissions per year. I urge the Leader to have this matter included in a debate.

11:00 am

Photo of Maria CorriganMaria Corrigan (Fianna Fail)
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I support my colleague, Senator O'Malley, regarding the comments about the family. We need to be clear that the State's primary responsibility is to ensure that every child can live in safety and can access all possible opportunities to realise their full potential regardless of background. That is the extent of the State's responsibility. We have enough to do in setting out to achieve that.

However, I disagree with the Senator on her points regarding CURA. Will the Leader clarify as a matter of urgency that CURA is in receipt of State funding from the Crisis Pregnancy Agency? It would be an outrage if this were not the case considering that the goal of the Crisis Pregnancy Agency is to provide positive options. The work CURA does is quite valuable and given that it has both an immediate and medium-term focus, it is imperative for it to receive increased funding from the State to allow it to carry out this much needed and valuable work. It provides a positive option. People are very clear before they approach it about what it has to offer. In a truly pluralist society we must have the capacity to reflect all options for people.

Will the Leader invite the Minister of State with responsibility for disability issues and mental health to come to the Chamber to speak on the implementation of A Vision of Change. In recent weeks Members have spoken in the House about the need for a debate and openness regarding people experiencing mental health difficulties. We have all welcomed the advertising campaign by the Health Service Executive in that regard. However, if we advocate and encourage people to speak openly and come forward to seek help, it is imperative we have treatment options in place. A Vision of Change offers us the opportunity to ensure that if it is implemented, those treatment options would exist and we would have a programme to ensure the maintenance of positive mental health well-being. It would be very beneficial to have the opportunity to discuss with the Minister of State the implementation of the policy and the progress to date.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Independent)
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I support Senator O'Malley in her comments about CURA. The concern is that CURA is not co-operating with the Crisis Pregnancy Agency policy and that it is not providing women in crisis pregnancy with all the information on all the options available to them. I would be concerned that an organisation should receive State funding if it is not co-operating with an agreed body such as the CPA.

I also echo the comments by Senators O'Malley and Corrigan regarding the family. The calls made yesterday for debates on parenting may have missed the point. I have already called and I again reiterate a call on the Leader to institute a debate about how the Legislature can support parents through the provision of paid paternity leave to enable fathers to take time off from the workplace. It is a scandal that fathers have no right to paid paternity leave at present. It is also a scandal that we have such a poor provision of pre-school child care. As a Legislature we should be concerned about the quality of provision for children and the best interests of the child. I was very concerned at views expressed yesterday that showed a certain prejudice towards a particular type of parent, which is not helpful in a debate. We should consider what is in the best interests of the child, which is the quality of the parenting, and not who the parents are or the nature of their relationship and whether it is based on a legal bond. We should call for a debate on what the Legislature can do to support parents, be they single, married, same sex or opposite sex parents.

Photo of John EllisJohn Ellis (Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Health and Children came to the House recently to discuss health issues but the HSE is totally out of control regarding its proposals, particularly its proposal to transfer the rheumatology unit in which Governments have invested considerable money down through the years from Manorhamilton to Sligo General Hospital, which does not even have the facilities to accommodate the patients who need rheumatology treatment. It is ridiculous that this situation should be allowed to continue. I call on the Leader to ask the Minister or a Minister of State to come to the House to discuss the actions being taken by the HSE in transferring services, which are operating to the full satisfaction of the public, to other locations that do not have the facilities to provide the necessary services.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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I support the calls regarding the Irish language Act in the Six Counties. It is disappointing that the minister has refused to enact this. However, it is part of the St. Andrews Agreement and, hopefully, this issue will be resolved at executive level. I was glad to be part of the team that negotiated the implementation of an Irish language Act at St. Andrews. It is important that ministers do not shy away from that commitment to which they signed up at St. Andrews. However, I observed a debate in Stormont during which the Ulster Unionist Party and the DUP came together to ensure the use of the Irish language would not be allowed within the chambers of Stormont, at the committees or in correspondence with Ministers. I thank God the motion was defeated. This happened because of the checks and balances negotiated in the Good Friday Agreement, which were acted on by the Sinn Féin and SDLP to ensure the motion was defeated.

However, in proposing the motion the MLAs referred to the amount of Irish spoken in the Houses of the Oireachtas, including when presenting legislation. According to this argument, they said there should not be an Irish language Act in the Six Counties or provision for Irish to be used in the Assembly should not be made. I reiterate the call of An Coimisinéir Teanga on us to use more Irish in the Chamber. Perhaps a presentation is needed as to how the translation system work for those who would like to speak in the first language so that we do not have to translate what we are saying into English. A further debate is needed on the presentation of legislation. It should be presented in Gaelic as well as Béarla and we should be allowed to make amendments to the legislation in Gaelic as well as Béarla. Great work has been done in the promotion of the Irish language but we need to go a number of steps further.

I call on the Minister for Transport to address the House on the progress of Transport 21. I would like him to focus on the west and, in particular, the Atlantic road corridor. Transport 21, which is included in the national development plan, promises an Atlantic road corridor between the south and Donegal to be built to a 2 plus 1 standard. It is reported that the NRA is no longer proceeding with the 2 plus 1 proposal because the pilot projects are not viable or do not comply with safety standards or do not provide efficiency or value for money. A debate is, therefore, needed on what will happen with the Atlantic road corridor. Will it be a dual carriageway or will the Government, for budgetary reasons, allow it to remain as is? I would also like the Minister to focus on the issue of public transport, particularly in the north west.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can raise that in the debate, if it is granted.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Sinn Fein)
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I would like the Minister to focus on the Atlantic road corridor and the need for a rail link to the north west. Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh and Tyrone are the only counties on the island that do not have a rail service. That must be amended and proposals adopted under Transport 21.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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I support my colleague, Senator Corrigan. There is no doubt that the more things change, the more they stay the same. I am conscious that there is a particular type of Irish liberal who is intolerant of everybody else's view. For many years, workers at Dunnes Stores refused to handle South African products. They suffered for their beliefs but we had great respect for them. If CURA workers refuse to hand out information on abortion, it is their absolute entitlement but those people like myself——

Photo of Fiona O'MalleyFiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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They are not entitled to use public money.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should not interrupt me. Those who supported Dunnes Stores workers cannot see their way to support people who have a conscientious objection to giving out information on abortion. It is wrong that the State is not supporting CURA, which supports both the mother and the child.

Photo of Fiona O'MalleyFiona O'Malley (Progressive Democrats)
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The State is supporting CURA.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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That is the second time the Senator has interrupted.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Hanafin, without interruption. I do not want Senators to refer to individual Members when they are contributing. They should address what they have to say through the Chair. A number of Senators have commented on this issue. Perhaps the Leader will arrange a debate where it can be discussed at length. I appreciate the points Senators have to make on this important issue.

Photo of John Gerard HanafinJohn Gerard Hanafin (Fianna Fail)
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This proves the point that people who call themselves liberal can be very intolerant of other people's views.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader arrange a debate on local government funding, which is an important matter? Estimates will soon be published by county and city councils. Councils are mandated to carry out a wide range of functions on a daily basis and they interface more often with the public than any other Government agency. Local government funding should be reviewed and debated because many people wonder whether local authorities are regulators or service providers. They increasingly regulate and this needs to be debated. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the House for such a debate.

Reference is often made to waste management policy going forward. However, I would like a debate on the issue of legacy landfills, which are the old landfills that were operated by local authorities for many years and which remain untreated. It will cost millions of euro out of the capital budgets of city and county councils to deal with them. I would like to hear the views of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on how he proposes to deal with them because EU obligations must be observed in regard to these landfills, which should be registered. Some private legal landfills may not even be registered yet. Local authorities will face a significant demand on their capital budgets to address this issue. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on this.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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I support the comments of Senators Corrigan and Hanafin regarding CURA. Senators Norris, O'Malley and Bacik should refer to a recent television programme I watched about aborted foetuses with hands and fingers and so on. It showed the heinous nature of abortion. If those good people watched that programme, they would change their views on this issue. CURA is doing excellent work and it would be repugnant to everything we stand for as a Christian nation if it was deprived of funding because of the attitude of the Crisis Pregnancy Agency.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Fine Gael)
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I echo Senator Kelly's call for an urgent debate on aviation policy in light of the revelations earlier regarding Shannon Airport and Aer Lingus. While I do not wish to engage in a debate now, clarity is needed on aviation policy and the Minister for Transport's role in the Shannon Airport issue. An Alice in Wonderland quality surrounds him. I would also like the debt free status of Cork Airport to be included in the debate.

In light of the decision of the GPA to ballot its members on an all out strike, I also support Senator Kelly's call on the Leader to invite the Minister for Finance or the Minster for Arts, Sport and Tourism to the House for an urgent debate on this issue. A fund of €5 million has been provided for GPA members, which has not been allocated to them.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I propose a change in the Order of Business, to defer the taking of No. 2. Senator Fitzgerald observed that the briefing notice we received yesterday in respect of this motion is scant in detail and explains nothing of the implications, financial and otherwise, of this EU regulation. The provision has not been examined by an Oireachtas committee, whereas the Parliaments of other member states have spent months discussing it. It is wrong to foist a motion such as this upon us with only one day's notice. We should defer our discussion of it until we have discussed its implications.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I call for a debate on the role of the Seanad. We are supposed to be a reflective, revising and reforming House, but we increasingly encounter inroads into our speaking time. It is important, for example, to review the format of the Order of Business. It is the most relevant and most widely covered aspect of our business, yet we wish to reduce the time allowed for it. I succeeded in having it extended by ten minutes during the term of the last Seanad. It should be extended even more. It is the means by which Members raise relevant issues and it represents the political cutting edge in this Chamber. We should play to our strengths.

The Cathaoirleach was decent in his undertaking that although he will apply the time regulations strictly, he will allow those Members who are excluded an opportunity to speak at the next opportunity. However, this will only lead to a waiting list. It will be like the situation in the hospitals, with people on trolleys in the anteroom waiting to come in. It is a nonsense.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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I could take a strict line as Cathaoirleach and be abrupt with Members, but that is not what I want.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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We know that.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps I might get more thanks if I did so. This is the second Chamber of the Houses of the Oireachtas, an important forum. I hope Members who make a contribution on the Order of Business will treat it as such.

There will be no problem in giving Members the opportunity to speak on the Order of Business over the two or three sitting days of the week. I will be fair in this regard. If push comes to shove, however, I will be obliged to cut Members short in their contribution and they may not be well disposed towards me for that reason.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I do not at all mean to impugn the Cathaoirleach, either his role or the manner in which he carries it out. However, it is nonsense to restrict the Order of Business in the way it is being restricted. I accept that the Cathaoirleach is simply obeying the rules of the House. However, it is something we should review.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Committee on Procedure and Privileges has agreed the time to be allocated for the Order of Business. My hands are tied.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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That is my point. However, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges is capable of opening its little mind on this issue.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should speak to the leader of his group.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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No. 4 on today's Order Paper is the Defamation Bill 2006, which is listed for Committee Stage. However, two thirds of Members are newly elected to this Seanad and thus have had no opportunity to contribute at the most important level of the debate on this Bill. That is not democracy. This contentious Bill should be reintroduced on Second Stage. We are all aware that the Privacy Bill 2006, which is No. 8 on the Order Paper, is either in suspended animation or dead on its feet. It is important that we address these matters in regard to legislation.

I support Senator O'Toole's comments on those prudent people who availed of the SSIA scheme to accumulate savings. It is grossly wrong that those savings should be taken into account in the means tests for various welfare benefits. Senator O'Toole and I, along with other Members, raised this issue when the savings scheme was introduced and received ministerial guarantees in this House that this would not happen.

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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I note the comments of colleagues on the Crisis Pregnancy Agency and CURA. In the light of last night's "Dispatches" report on Channel 4, a debate we should have in this House, perhaps in the presence of the Minister for Education and Science, is what we can do to promote a comprehensive respect for life in this State. Last night's documentary shows there is increasing disquiet in Britain at the experience of abortion in that jurisdiction. Even abortion providers contend that the culture is copping out morally and that they are required to undertake activities with which they are increasingly uncomfortable.

Given the money we rightly spend through advertising and so on to prevent road deaths, we should also see each abortion of an Irish child that takes place in Britain as a tragedy both for the child and its mother. We must take seriously the need to promote respect for life in our education system. I reassure colleagues who are fearful that this debate might be contentious and divisive that a comprehensive pro-life attitude encompasses equal concern for issues such as human trafficking, as highlighted by today's report that some 70 women have been forcibly trafficked into this country for participation in the sex industry. I hope the education of young people in respect for life will be comprehensive, so that future generations might look back at our abortion culture and the contradiction it represents in terms of our pro-life stance on other issues.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator seek a debate on this issue?

Photo of Rónán MullenRónán Mullen (Independent)
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Yes. I seek a debate in the presence of the Minister for Education and Science. This is fundamentally an issue of educating the next generation about respect for human life at all stages.

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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I called for a debate yesterday on parenting. This has widened to encompass far more than I anticipated, based on issues raised by other Members, and I urge the Leader to find time for that debate. I made the point yesterday that the State's taxation policy does not recognise the benefit of the parenting provided by married couples. This debate can be widened to include the other issues to which colleagues referred.

I support the calls for a debate on energy. I understand the Minister for the Environment. Heritage and Local Government will, in one fell swoop, increase our energy consumption when he introduces winter time, on Sunday of next week, and does away with daylight savings time. There is a strong case for this State to align itself with central European time on a permanent basis.

Senators:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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It is a beautiful day today. In ten days' time, however, we will lose an hour in the evening. We will gain an hour in the morning but that is not of much use to us for the rest of the year. I urge that we take this step in view of the benefits to business, reduction in energy consumption and increased leisure time.

Some may contend that this change cannot be made unless it is also undertaken by the United Kingdom. My view is that we could encourage Northern Ireland to join us in this undertaking, just as we support it in aligning its corporation tax rate with ours. We should not be afraid to leave the nursery without nanny. We should take this step on our own and could well convince the British Government of its merits. I urge the Leader to facilitate a debate on energy that would encompass issues such as this.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I second Senator Cummins's proposal for an amendment to the Order of Business. It is a serious matter that the Minister for Transport and the Marine, Deputy Dempsey, was not informed of the major decision regarding Aer Lingus's route from Shannon to Heathrow, even though his officials were aware of it and a note was placed in a file to be bought to his attention. We all remember the statement made by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, formerly Minister for Health and Children, on the issue of nursing home charges. In that instance, a senior official was moved sideways because of his failure to inform the Minister on this matter.

I recently came across a case where an official refused — although this was later circumvented — to bring a report that was commissioned in the Minister's name and produced in conjunction with an external autonomous body to that Minister's attention. Is this a sign of a growing "Yes, Minister" syndrome or is it simply an increase in the number of Sir Humphreys in the Civil Service?

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator seek a debate on this matter?

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I do. It is a serious matter and I look forward to the Leader's response.

I join Senator Ross in calling for a debate on auctioneering. It is long overdue. Both the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers and the Irish Auctioneers and Valuers Institute would welcome such a debate. I do not accept that the profession is riddled with cowboys.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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My foot.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader, without interruption.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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Senators Fitzgerald, Cummins and Coghlan commented on the motion, which is in the Dáil this morning. It is made under a particular provision of the treaty and if Ireland wishes to partake at the outset of negotiations, it must notify the President of the Council within three months of the proposal being published by the Commission. As we know, the proposal was published on 25 July and the deadline is 24 October. This was laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas in August and approved by Cabinet on Tuesday, 16 October. That is the history of the motion, and the Government must pursue taking it in the House today from 2.30 p.m. to 3.30 p.m. so I cannot accede to the proposed amendment.

Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Boyle, Reilly, Norris and Quinn raised the matter of SSIA moneys. Those who made a sacrifice and rallied to the call of the Minister for Finance of the day should not be penalised for that. Senator Norris stated an undertaking was given here by the Minister and if the veracity of that statement can be ascertained this afternoon in the Library, I will bring it to the Minister's attention immediately. It would be serious if an undertaking had been given in the Upper House of the Oireachtas and was not followed through by the Revenue Commissioners.

With regard to budgetary implications and all other matters, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, will come to the House over the next two weeks. He will be here next week and for two days the following week. Those matters can be raised with him.

On the development of the west, this House should agree with me when I propose we make energy a priority in this 23rd Seanad. We should see what part we can play in the cost of electricity and gas to the consumer and discuss alternative energy supports in the future. I intend to have an all-afternoon debate on the matter when we begin three-day sittings in November. Senators can be prepared with completed research by the second week in November and we can have the energy debate, taking in current and future challenges of energy.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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I am giving that commitment to the House.

Senators Hannigan and Boyle expressed serious concerns about pensions and yesterday I committed to a debate on the matter. In both Houses of Parliament we have given the great example as there is no retirement age for a Member of either House. The new committee to be charged with this responsibility can point to this leading by example.

There was a call for a debate on broadband, an important technology very much needed in the rural parts of Ireland where it is currently unavailable. I have no difficulty in having a debate on the matter within the next four weeks. Senators Ross, Coghlan and O'Malley called for an urgent debate on auctioneers' bills. I understand the relevant Bill will be in the House in 2008 and I will endeavour to have it initiated, as Senator Ross has correctly requested of me.

Senators O'Malley, Corrigan, Mullen, Bacik, Walsh and Hanafin called for a debate on the family, respect for family life and CURA. This was in support of Senator Quinn's call yesterday. I understand CURA received in excess of €600,000 from the Government last year. I have no difficulty in allowing time for such a debate. Next week's Private Members' motion is a Fianna Fáil motion but the Independents have this time for a motion in the following week. Perhaps they might show their generosity in this matter and we could take this issue under Private Members' time. If not, I will try to allow time when we begin the three-day sittings in November.

Senators Kelly and Buttimer called for a debate on transport and arts, sports and tourism, which I have no difficulty allowing time for. We all owe so much to the Gaelic Athletic Association, with the Cathaoirleach being a shining example in a successful career as a player and manager. If an impasse should prevail, the Minister may be available to mediate. I take the views of Senator Kelly on the matter, and anyone who has supported and played the native games will know it to be a serious issue and that support should be given.

Senators Ó Domhnaill, Doherty and others called for a debate in the House on the Irish language. We have a debate on the Irish language in every session. Senator Ó Domhnaill complimented the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, on all he has done for the language since becoming a Minister of State and Minister. I will allow time for this. Senators Corrigan and Hanafin called for a debate on mental health, which I have no difficulty in allowing time for also.

Senator Ellis made a very important point this morning, particularly relevant to Senators from rural Ireland. There are proposals by the HSE to close down services which are satisfactory in a rural area like Manorhamilton and move them to Sligo where there is no service currently available.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It is Government policy.

Photo of Donie CassidyDonie Cassidy (Fianna Fail)
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The phrase "common sense" must prevail and I ask Senator Ellis, if he wishes, to pursue this on the next possible Adjournment. It is an urgent matter as a service has been given satisfactorily in a particular area. Removing the service defies commonsense as there is no service in the area to which they are moving it.

Senator Doherty also called for a debate on the Atlantic corridor and Transport 21, which I have no difficulty in allowing. The Senator spoke about two-plus-one lanes and the NRA. As we all know, the number of vehicles owned in Ireland has increased from 1.4 million in 2000 to 2.1 million in 2006, an increase of 700,000 vehicles. The road system from Mullingar to Longford where a two-plus-one lane system was proposed is already out of date despite only being first mentioned three years ago, because the population and number of vehicles on the road have substantially increased. That could be a positive sign. I have no difficulty in allowing a debate.

Senator Coffey called for a debate on local government funding. This is an appropriate time as the estimates are now being discussed by local authority members. There was also a call for a debate on landfills, for which I have no difficulty in allowing time. Senator Norris again called for a debate on the role of the Seanad. I understand the CPP will consider the matter very soon and I have no difficulty in allowing time to be allocated for that. It would be sensible to reintroduce the Defamation Bill on Second Stage, as 35 of the 60 Members of the Seanad are new since the Bill was previously on Second Stage.

Photo of Pat MoylanPat Moylan (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Cummins has moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 2 be deleted." Is the amendment being pressed?

Amendment put.

The Dail Divided:

For the motion: 21 (Ivana Bacik, Paul Bradford, Paddy Burke, Jerry Buttimer, Paudie Coffey, Paul Coghlan, Maurice Cummins, Pearse Doherty, Paschal Donohoe, Frances Fitzgerald, Dominic Hannigan, Alan Kelly, Rónán Mullen, David Norris, Joe O'Reilly, Joe O'Toole, Phil Prendergast, Feargal Quinn, Eugene Regan, Shane Ross, Liam Twomey)

Against the motion: 26 (Dan Boyle, Larry Butler, Peter Callanan, Ivor Callely, Ciarán Cannon, John Carty, Donie Cassidy, Maria Corrigan, Mark Daly, John Ellis, Geraldine Feeney, Camillus Glynn, John Gerard Hanafin, Tony Kett, Terry Leyden, Marc MacSharry, Lisa McDonald, Brian Ó Domhnaill, Denis O'Donovan, Fiona O'Malley, Ned O'Sullivan, Ann Ormonde, Kieran Phelan, Jim Walsh, Mary White, Diarmuid Wilson)

Tellers: Tá, Senators Maurice Cummins and Eugene Regan; Níl, Senators Dan Boyle and Diarmuid Wilson.

Amendment declared lost.

Order of Business agreed to.