Seanad debates

Thursday, 24 October 2002

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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I welcome this opportunity to address the House on the issue of crime. It is a broadranging issue and obviously, from what has transpired just before my arrival, many Senators have a great deal to say on different aspects of today's debate. I will watch my back on the monitors but I think I am all right.

It would be somewhat artificial in current circumstances not to say that crime, as a concept, is an issue of huge latitude, but sexual abuse of young people is a very serious crime and must be treated as such. The Government is considering carefully what steps it proposes to take to address the issues that have been brought to public attention in recent days by the "Prime Time" programme and by other media programmes and publications.

This is of such importance that it is equally important to avoid knee-jerk reactions. It is important to make sure that everything we do is measured and effective. Without rehearsing matters which have been dealt with elsewhere, and doubtless will be dealt with in this House on another occasion, I state clearly that, as far as our system of law is concerned, no one is beneath its protection and no one is above its reach. It applies across the board and to everyone. As we are citizens of a Republic, the law is the law of the Republic and is not inferior to, or even on a co-equal status with, any private law.

Having made those points, it is important to emphasise to the House that the Garda Síochána is taking steps to strengthen and sharpen its capacity to deal with crimes of sexual abuse against children. The criminal law, such as it is, is a matter, not for direction by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as to how individual investigations should be carried out, but for enforcement by the Garda Síochána in partnership with the Director of Public Prosecutions. Any resources needed to counter and detect cases of child abuse will be made available by my Department to the Garda Síochána.

Senators will be aware that the statistics furnished by the Garda Commissioner in relation to headline or serious offences for 2001 are disappointing and very worrying. Although in the period 1996 to 2000 the figures for recorded indictable crime showed a decrease of approximately 27%, the trend, regrettably, altered in 2001 when Garda statistics indicated an overall increase of 18% over the previous year. Although these figures are obviously a cause for major concern, they also reflect the targeting of resources and the resultant increased activity on the part of the Garda Síochána in addressing this problem. This is confirmed by the detection rate of 75% in the assault category and 87% in the homicide category.

The increase in the number of public order incidents has led to serious and, in some cases, fatal injuries. This is a major cause of concern to the Government. I know that all Senators will share my concern at the death of a young man who so tragically lost his life in Dublin last week and that they join me in extending sympathy to his family and the families of other recent victims of similar heinous crimes. I am convinced that the serious nature of these crimes underlines the continued need for robust responses to offending behaviour and the need to be able to respond quickly and effectively to changing levels and patterns of crime.

In order to address the problems associated with public order, I have reintroduced the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, 2002, which, when enacted, will give the Garda Síochána significant additional powers to assist it in dealing with drunkenness and disorderly conduct. The purpose of the Bill is to augment the law so as to tackle the problem of drink-related late night disturbances and the growing problem of late night street violence, which have their origins in or outside licensed premises, fast food outlets, night clubs and the like in urban areas. It applies to pubs, off-licences, discos, night clubs, dance venues of all types, amusement arcades, chip shops, take-aways and mobile food vehicles. Existing Garda powers in this area will be strengthened. The Bill will extend the sanctions that may be imposed on offenders under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994.

Many, including several Members of this House, have expressed concern about the contribution of under age drinking to the problem of public disorder. Establishing the incidence of under age drinking and associated public disorder in an empirically sound fashion is a very difficult task as statistics in relation to non-headline crime are not usually disaggregated according to the age of the offender. Nevertheless, it must be acknowledged that under age drinking undoubtedly contributes to the problem, although I do not wish to overstate this contribution in the context of the behaviour of young adults.

The Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1988 was designed to make it as difficult as possible for persons under the age of 18 years to be sold alcohol, to be in possession of it or consume it other than in a private residence. The Intoxicating Liquor Act, 2000 strengthened the law in this regard by providing for the removal of the reasonable belief defence of licence holders in selling alcohol to under age persons and by providing that where a conviction for the sale of alcohol to an under age person is upheld, the licensed premises may be closed for a specified period. From the date of commencement of the Act in the year 2000 to 23 September 2002, some 118 closure orders were made by the courts.

Moreover, statutory regulations have been introduced providing for the issuance of age cards to persons of or over 18 years of age, certifying that they have attained the legal age for the purchase of intoxicating liquor. This so-called national age card scheme has proven to be considerably successful in making it that bit more difficult for under age persons to purchase alcohol, with approximately 70,000 cards having now been issued. To further promote the scheme, I also plan to initiate a €150,000 awareness campaign to highlight the desirability of the use of these age cards among both young adults and on and off-licensees.

Senators will be aware of the Garda operation named Operation Encounter, which was introduced in February this year and continues to focus on all issues of public order in the community. Particular attention is paid to night clubs, fast food outlets and other venues at which large numbers congregate and where there is potential for disorder. The target hours of the operation are determined locally, based on the specific circumstances prevailing at each location. The Garda strives to ensure the owners and managers of such premises are fully aware of their responsibilities and the duty of care they owe to their patrons and other members of the public. This will be given statutory force when the latest public order Bill becomes law. The operation has also increased the number of gardaí available to target locations where public order and assault offences are likely to be committed

The Government regards the situation as one which requires in-depth analysis of the underlying causes of crime as well as priority action to deal with particular issues. Our response is multifaceted. The programme for Government includes proposals in relation to many of the issues I have already touched upon, such as innovative public order legislation, targeted Garda operations, a strict enforcement of the liquor licensing laws and an extension in the use of closed-circuit television systems. Of particular note in this list is the major expansion of Garda CCTV systems currently under way. Systems are due to be installed in the following 17 areas: Athlone, Ballyfermot, Bray, Carlow, Castlebar, Clondalkin, Clonmel, Dundalk, Dún Laoghaire, Ennis, Finglas, Galway, Kilkenny, Limerick, Waterford, Sligo and Tallaght.

Of particular relevance to the issue of crime are the provisions of the Children Act, 2001, which is acknowledged as one of the most comprehensive youth justice statutes for generations. The Act sets out the manner in which Ireland will be dealing with offenders under the age of 18 years for the foreseeable future. For the benefit of new Members of the House, I will outline some of the provisions.

The Act provides that for children at risk of becoming involved in offending or out-of-control non-offending children, family welfare conferences may be convened. This entirely preventative, inter-agency mechanism brings together the key participants, including the child and parents, to determine whether special care or protection is required or warranted. In addition, the existing Garda juvenile diversion programme will be established on a statutory basis as a means of dealing with the offending child who accepts responsibility for his or her behaviour.

In cases where Garda discretion in the use of cautioning is inappropriate or has failed and the matter proceeds to the Children Court, provision is made for an adjournment of proceedings and the convening of a family conference in cases where the child accepts responsibility for his or her criminal behaviour. The family conference, organised by the probation and welfare service, aims to formulate an action plan for the child, which may include an apology or reparation to the victim, participation by the child in appropriate sports or recreational activities, attendance at school or work, or participation in other recreational, training or educational courses that would not interfere with school or work. The court remains in ultimate control of this process, and if the terms of the action plan are not adhered to, charges against the child may be reinstated.

In those cases where prosecution and conviction become unavoidable, in keeping with best international practice, the guiding principle is that detention should be an option of last resort. To effect this, provision is made for a number of forms of community sanction, many of which are entirely new within Irish law. Although imprisonment will not be an option for persons under the age of 18 years, it is recognised, nevertheless, that detention will always be required for a small number of young offenders for whom nothing else will work. Children of 12 years of age up to 16 years of age will be detained in child detention schools, which will have an educational rather than punitive ethos. Children of 16 and 17 years of age will be detained in dedicated, sex-segregated secure detention centres provided within our justice system.

I also wish to mention the National Crime Council, which was established to facilitate broadly based and well informed discussion on crime on an ongoing basis and to serve as an important aid to policy formulation. I recently had the honour of attending briefly at a meeting of the council and one of the Members of this House is closely related to its chair. It was a pleasure to see an independent group of people setting about feeding well researched, objective and valuable information into our democratic debate.

In November 2001, the council launched its first report, entitled Crime in Ireland, which provides an analysis of the official crime statistics from 1950 to 1998. This study was carried out by the Institute of Criminology in the Faculty of Law at University College Dublin and contains a set of recommendations from the council. On 26 July 2002, I obtained Government approval to implement two of the key recommendations, namely, the establishment of an expert group to review the collation and presentation of information relating to crime and the development of a biennial national crime victimisation survey. I understand that, later today, the National Crime Council will be launching a consultation document dealing with crime prevention partnerships, entitled Tackling the Underlying Causes of Crime – A Partnership Approach. I understand that the council will be making definitive recommendations to me on this matter in spring 2003.

The council has also commissioned a research report to establish the levels of public order offences in Ireland, the likely contributory factors, including but not exclusively alcohol consumption, and a comparative analysis of the problem with countries of similar size to Ireland. The research is being undertaken by the Institute of Criminology and the results are due later this year, together with recommendations from the council. An advisory group has been appointed by the council to oversee the development of a national study of domestic violence. This study will be non-gender specific and will aim to provide a more accurate picture of the prevalence and nature of domestic violence in Ireland than is possible from official crime statistics.

I pay tribute to the loyalty and service which the Garda Síochána has given and continues to give this State and its people. I was gratified by the findings of the recent public attitude survey commissioned by the Garda research unit which showed an 87% general public satisfaction rating with how the community is policed. However, we live in a world of change and the Garda Síochána must change along with the society it serves. I regard it as one of the highest priorities of my period in office to foster and support that trust between the Garda Síochána and the community and to do all I can to ensure that the values of the service endure in a modern setting. We all want a situation to prevail where police action is characterised by the highest standards of professionalism, probity and respect for the law and the Constitution. The maintenance of these standards in an era of change will require new structures and procedures to be put in place and principal among these is the proposed Garda inspectorate which the Government has committed itself to introduce.

The current Government programme lays down a firm commitment to deliver on this new inspectorate, which can independently instigate complaints or investigations against members of the service and which will, in that regard, have the powers of an ombudsman. The inspectorate will also exercise an independent day-to-day oversight of police operating standards. In addition to the proposed Garda inspectorate, there is already under way a substantial programme of change and reform within the Garda Síochána under the Strategic Management Initiative. I have already announced measures to provide for a new performance and accountability framework for the Garda Síochána to enable the service to meet the challenges ahead. The legislation to provide for all these measures is well advanced within my Department and I hope to publish it next year.

Senators will appreciate that it was only possible in this contribution to touch on some aspects of crime, criminology and the State's response to crime and policing. We face many other challenges, not least the issues of terrorism and organised crime. I hope that the Members of this House will not consider that, in visiting just a few flowers on the plant of the crime issue, I am in any way dismissive of the others. I assume that Members will not consider themselves confined in this series of statements to dealing with the issues I have raised, but will range far, wide and constructively on all issues in this category. I thank the Cathaoirleach and Members for their attention and assure them that I will listen attentively to any and all suggestions they may wish to make.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I wish to share my time with Senator McHugh.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. His presence provides us with a great opportunity to hear his views on how he intends to tackle the very serious issue of crime on our streets. It also provides Members with an opportunity to relate to the Minister our serious concerns about how the level of crime, which is rising each year, is affecting people. The Minister said that he is extremely worried about this rise in crime as are Members on this side of the House.

The rise in crime in recent years is unacceptable to Members and to people on the streets. Parents fear for their children's lives each time they leave their houses. Elderly people are afraid to leave their homes at night and even fear for their lives within their homes. All can relate stories on this matter. One of my sons went to Temple Bar one night and suffered an unprovoked attack in which his nose and some teeth were broken. A garda was called to the incident but he simply told my son to go home. He did not even ask my son's name or for a description of the young boys who perpetrated this attack.

I raise that story because I believe that a large number of crimes go unreported. Young children are at risk of being attacked on their way home from school for something as simple as a mobile phone. I share the sympathy the Minister extended to the family of the young boy who lost his life in a mobile phone robbery recently. The situation on the streets is almost a lawless one. Nobody knows the terror and hurt that people must put up with until they are affected themselves. Each of us, when affected by crime, wants something done but we need to do something on a general basis. The level of drunkenness, public disorder and crime on our streets has to be tackled urgently.

I would like the Minister to take on board some suggestions. He said that he will increase the number of gardaí from 12,000 to 14,000 over the next couple of years. That will be extremely difficult for the Minister to achieve because of the number of gardaí retiring naturally at their retirement age. There is also an increasing number retiring before retirement age. With that drop-out rate, the Minister will not be able to secure the numbers he wants to reach the 14,000 target. I suggest that he considers providing an option for gardaí to stay on later than the limit of 57 years of age which is currently in force. Many gardaí enjoy their work and would happily stay on given the option, and if the circumstances were right for them.

While people said that they are happy with the gardaí in their communities, they want more gardaí. If there were more, there would be a decline in the number of incidents of crimes. The Blanchardstown area, which I represent, has a population of 75,000. There are not enough community gardaí in the area and those that are there cannot perform their community policing duties as a consequence of pressures from other areas of the Garda Síochána's work. I ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to address this problem by providing an increased number of community gardaí in areas of high population. The presence of community gardaí would alleviate the problems I mentioned.

I agree with the Minister's opinion that CCTV is necessary and helps the Garda to identify the perpetrators of street crime. People would feel safer if more gardaí were present on the streets and if CCTV systems were in operation. The Minister should deliver CCTV to the places he mentioned in his speech, along with other areas, as a matter of urgency.

A community initiative in Blanchardstown, organised in association with the probation and welfare service, caters for the immediate and long-term needs of ex-prisoners between the ages of 16 and 21. It concentrates on helping them to return to the community. Some 87% of such people in the Blanchardstown area are addicted to drugs and, worryingly, 27% of them are homeless. Some local initiatives under the probation and welfare service provide homes for the people to whom I refer and I believe further suggestions for such programmes are on the Minister's desk. Such services set young people goals to meet if they are to change their lives, for example, by placing them on training programmes. Many of the programmes are undertaken by ex-prisoners over a one year period while they are living in a residential community.

Many people doubt that the money needed to retain these services will be forthcoming from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is important that we continue to provide hope for 87 ex-prisoners in the Blanchardstown area, especially if we are to ensure that they do not re-offend. If the Department assists these programmes, it will benefit these people and, hopefully, prevent them from returning to a life of crime. They should be allowed to live in their communities rather than being taken away to places with which they have no association.

The Minister's speech referred to the sexual abuse of children by members of the clergy. I support his endeavours in this regard and I agree that he needs to take time to deal with the matter. He is correct that nobody is above the law as, for too long, people have hidden behind canon law. I appreciate the Minister's line that we will not allow that to happen again and he can be sure that he is supported by Senators on this side of the House in that regard. All of us must hang our heads in shame that we allowed such abuse to take place over such a long period. I am glad that people are coming forward to tell their stories and I hope they receive the help they require. Equally, I am pleased that the perpetrators of such terrible crimes will be dealt with properly and that they will no longer be allowed to hide behind closed doors.

In my opinion, late night drinking, introduced about two years ago, has added to the level of street crime. This matter was not mentioned in the Minister's submission and I ask him to re-examine it. The level of crime has increased since the changes in the licensing laws were introduced. We should consider reinstating the former opening hours as excessive alcohol consumption causes so much crime and violence on our streets. I ask the Minister to reconsider this matter.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister, Deputy McDowell, to the House and I am delighted to speak about the issue of crime. I appreciate the Minister's acknowledgement that the measures he proposes represent the tip of the iceberg in relation to targeted responses to crime. I welcome these reactive measures, however, as they are necessary. A long-term crime strategy should include an examination of the perpetrators of crime. Many criminals do not have a sense of belonging; they do not feel that they belong to a particular group. They do not share an ethos of responsibility and they have become disenfranchised from society through no fault of their own. The fact that they feel they do not belong to a structured group is related to changes in society over recent years.

I worked on a youth project in Letterkenny for two years. I met the Minister in Ballybofey recently and I urge him to contact the Garda Síochána in Letterkenny the next time he is in County Donegal to ask for statistics about the Glenwood Park estate. A youth group, funded by a grant from the peace and reconciliation fund, was established to work with young people in the estate when it was known by a different name. I was employed as a youth worker there for two years from 1997. The people of the estate were labelled trouble makers and were seen as being constantly involved in crime. Young people on the estate were viewed as beyond the law and the rigours of society. My task was to establish homework clubs, to involve children in football and other sports, to get parents involved and, generally speaking, to engage the people of the estate in tasks to build up a team spirit. I was there for two years and another youth worker is employed there at present.

Having worked with people between the ages of 12 and 15, I am of the opinion that children can become disenfranchised from society if we do not work with them in their early teens. When I was in Letterkenny two nights ago, I saw the group I worked with two years ago, when they were 14 years of age, playing football. I was pleasantly surprised to see that they were still playing together. A garda told me at the referendum count last Sunday that crime levels in the estate have decreased. A girl from the estate now attends NUI Maynooth, although I do not claim that her success is as a result of the youth project. We have to look at long-term crime prevention measures. I appreciate that the Minister said that all his initiatives were not mentioned in his speech.

The Youth Work Act, 2001, passed by the Oireachtas last year, gives more power to vocational education committees. Questions have to be asked, however, as many of the Act's provisions have yet to be implemented. I beseech the Minister, Deputy McDowell, to use his position of responsibility to ensure that the provisions are implemented without delay. Paid youth workers are needed on the ground as the day of voluntary input has passed, more or less. People will continue to offer their services voluntarily, but structures need to be established in non-formal environments, such as homework clubs and youth organisations. We need paid employees to work with young people on the ground in estates and other urban centres if we are to prevent crime.

Photo of Jim WalshJim Walsh (Fianna Fail)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire chun an Teach seo leis an díospóireacht tábhachtach seo. Undoubtedly, crime will be a priority for the Minister and the Government. Recent statistics were disappointing in that between 1996 and 2000 we saw a reduction of 27% in the level of indictable crime while now there has been an increase of 18% in one year. The Minister has initiated urgent analysis of the areas involved, but larceny and burglary account for over half of the increase, with more than 8,000 cases, while the number of drug offences has gone up by 33%, sexual offences by 83%, assaults by 93% and murders by 33%. As the Minister stated, however, detection rates for crimes such as murder are very high.

The adage that crime does not pay could be debated in the current climate. It has been debunked and is attributable to social change as much as anything else. When I was growing up, a teenager robbed some pennies from the church. The shame visited on his family and the stigma attached were a significant deterrent to those participating in crime. As we become more affluent, however, money rather than respect for values is a criterion for social measurement and, as a result, there is not the same respect for the law, personal property and individual rights.

Parental responsibility must be addressed. There is legislation in place, but it would be good to have it rigorously enforced. The values instilled in the home stay with people throughout their lives. Everyone here can identify individuals who have become involved in crime and will know that previous generations of the family have the same record. That cycle must be broken. The Minister, rightly, subscribes to the dictum that prevention is better than cure. He has stated he will tackle the causes of crime. Marginalisation, housing and educational and employment opportunities have been identified as causes. Figures are often quoted that the African American population of the USA represents a much greater proportion of the prison population than its numbers within the overall population.

Education must play a key role. The study of civics and the involvement of juvenile liaison officers would be helpful. Greater interaction between the Garda and schools, with effective programmes that could be conducted during transition year so as not to interfere with the curriculum, could be effective in that regard.

Some of the more liberal Members will disagree with me, but I wonder what role the removal of corporal punishment has played in the lack of discipline. Discipline is not held in the same regard as it was previously. It might be politically incorrect to say so – I do not condone past abuses of corporal punishment – but when I grew up. the odd slap on the hand did no harm. It kept us in our place. Are we becoming too politically correct?

Sports organisations play a vital role. The GAA was mentioned on the Order of Business. Its contribution to society is enormous, as are those made by soccer, rugby and boxing clubs. In my town a young man was in difficulties with the law, but he went to England and became a British boxing champion at welterweight. When he returned, we hosted a civic reception and many of those involved in the boxing club acknowledged what the sport had achieved for him. They commented that but for his involvement in the sport, he might have followed a course that would have had a hugely detrimental effect on his whole life.

I spoke to the manager of the local soccer club recently when we were making an application to the national lottery for funding. I told him to include in the application that in 30 years of involvement with the club, only one young man ever got into trouble with the law. This club would train children from under 10 level right up, hundreds have passed through it.

The role and participation of gardaí and priests must be acknowledged. The positive contribution they make to clubs often goes unrecognised. I have seen gardaí involved in basketball and other clubs and this interaction gives people a respect for them and, as a consequence, the role they play in society. More of this should be encouraged.

It is impossible to discuss this topic without looking at the Garda's enforcement role. The Garda works in a difficult environment in which few of us would choose to work. Often it interacts with the worst elements in society and its members put their own safety at risk in the interests of others. The system, however, should be examined. When there is good management locally, the performance of the Garda has been noticeably better. Where management is not up to that level, members of the force feel vulnerable because they feel that if they step over the line, as they may sometimes do, they take the brunt of the blame without any support from their superiors.

Diversity of duty should be examined. There is no reason traffic enforcement should be undertaken by the Garda. It could be policed effectively by a dedicated force such as the community warden system that operates at local authority level. Such arrangements apply successfully in other countries. The prime focus of the Garda should be on tackling crime and reducing crime rates.

I welcome the increase of 2,000 in the number of gardaí. Resources are vital in this area because it is imperative that there are more gardaí on the beat. I have often discussed this with the local superintendent and when he explains where he has deployed personnel, 30 gardaí in a small town can find themselves spread across 24 hours in a way that is ineffective when it comes to being seen on the ground. There is no substitute for visibility and any initiative should ensure this happens.

This may be the era of equality, but I have seen instances of a young ban gharda being sent into the middle of a fracas on her own. That does not strike me as the best mechanism for resolving local difficulties. It has been commented on adversely by people who are good enough to fulfil their civic duty by telephoning the Garda and making them aware of the situation. I welcome the introduction of CCTV in 17 locations around the country, but I would like to see it extended to a greater number of towns.

The hands of gardaí are often tied because there is no tolerance of physical force. There was a sergeant in New Ross some years ago who was extremely effective, although it was to the detriment of his health. He often became involved in fracas and, because he was a champion boxer, he sorted them out effectively. I am not advocating a return to that, but our attitude must be balanced.

I have heard of instances where gardaí are verbally abused by young men who know that effective action cannot be taken against them. I have known gardaí who have gone to great trouble to get a successful prosecution only to see the young person who was taken away to prison on Friday jeering them on Monday morning because of the revolving door system in our prisons. That is demoralising for dedicated gardaí. We must ensure they know they have our support to police effectively. That is different from saying they should step over the line. However, a certain line must be set.

The Minister referred to accountability. When the Local Government Act was introduced a couple of years ago some of us advocated the establishment of local committees which would operate on a similar basis to the joint Oireachtas committees and to which the Garda and other public services would be accountable. The direct line would still be to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Public representatives with an electoral mandate who have local knowledge – we often get complaints from people – could make a valuable input at local level. That could be done in committees rather than in public as people might be afraid of the consequences of adverse publicity arising from loose comments which might be made. That type of approach could be invaluable in trying to achieve accountability.

I was glad the Minister referred to the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill, 2002. We look forward to its passage through the House in the near future and to its enactment. We hope it will address the issue of Garda powers. We must tackle the late night disturbances which are a cause of concern to the public. The Minister spoke about disabling and fatal injuries. That is unacceptable in a civilised society. I agree with Senator Terry about our drink culture. We should examine closing times not only of public houses but of takeaways. People often congregate outside such establishments and that leads to the problems we have all experienced.

Consideration is being given to drug abuse prevention programmes, reducing the number of suppliers, the treatment of addicts and research. However, we could do more in that area. The Garda know the drug peddlers in our town, as I do. I am sure everyone here knows those involved in their areas. However, they still seem to be able to operate with impunity.

It is important to have a judicial system which relies on evidence. It is also important that innocent people are not given custodial sentences. No one wants to see that happening. However, it is equally wrong that people who devastate other people's lives through criminal activities – drug peddlers are in that category – can walk the streets of our towns, go into our pubs and sell drugs without being arrested. If we can put terrorists in jail on the word of a superintendent, surely we can see what could be done to address the problem. Unfortunately, it took the murder of a journalist before the establishment of the Criminal Assets Bureau. It is an international example of how to tackle crime in certain areas.

I understand there is a backlog of cases to be heard in the courts. It has been said that we need more judges and I am sure the Minister is examining that. A suggestion was made to me recently – I am sure the Minister knows better than I do the value of such suggestions – that consideration should be given to bringing rape cases back to the Circuit Court.

The consistency of decisions by judges at all levels should be examined. The separation of power is important, but that does not mean people are not accountable for the decisions they make which often impact on the public. Some judges will adhere to technicalities, while others will not.

Community service should be more widely used. I mentioned the revolving door system in prisons. We should also examine drug use in prisons. I understand that it probably brings a certain degree of order in prisons, but many people who went into prison clean have come out addicted to drugs. That is unacceptable. They tend to become educational institutes for crime. I have seen many hard people go to prison and come out as drug peddlers because they came into contact with people whose criminal operations were more sophisticated.

We need a multi-faceted approach to this problem. It is not only the Legislature, the Judiciary and the enforcement agencies which must tackle this problem. Society in general has a responsibility to ensure a reduction in crime as befits a proper civilised society.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I wish to share my time with Senators Henry and Quinn.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach:

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister to the House. We are fortunate in the State to have a man of his eminence and qualifications because it is unusual to have someone who is expertly qualified in law and also has a distinguished career in politics. It is good that we have someone of that background as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The Minister rather unwisely invited us to trawl a little bit widely among the fleur du mal of the criminal system. I will take up that invitation because I was also invited on the Order of Business by the Leader of the House, Senator O'Rourke, to raise something I and Senator O'Toole raised yesterday. It is in the context of clerical child abuse. I invite the Minister urgently to consider a review of the equality legislation. When it went through the House certain exemptions were granted specific to the Roman Catholic Church to allow it to dismiss teachers on the basis of their lifestyle. People can be punished without any criminal activity.

I, as a reasonably upstanding member of society and Member of the Oireachtas who was elected by the people to this Chamber and who does not have any criminal convictions, was a teacher. Had I been a teacher in a national school paid for by taxpayers' money but under the control of a clerical managerial system, I could have been thrown out for advocating homosexual law reform. That would have been legal, while at the same time these people were concealing and moving around people who were molesting children by the tens, if not the hundreds. That is an intolerable situation. We fought this issue with the former Minister, Mervyn Taylor, a member of the Labour Party, and with other people. Now is the moment that this issue of gross injustice and unjustifiable discrimination should be addressed. I appeal to the Minister to do that. He will find the churches very reluctant to resort to the kind of stiff lobbying they used before. This is a very important point.

Senator Jim Walsh raised the question of corporal punishment. In a way, I understand his point because in the area in which I live children of seven years of age give one cheek. They know exactly what their rights are. They break into garages and, when challenged, threaten to get the Garda or have one up in court. The problem is one of balance. Nevertheless, I would hesitate to reintroduce corporal punishment. We have heard all about the clerical sexual abuse of children. I went to an upmarket Protestant boarding school where the most vicious and deviant physical attacks on children took place which ruined lives and drove a number of people I know into areas bordering on criminality. That issue has never been addressed. We need to be extremely careful when considering the introduction of such a measure.

I hope the Minister is successful in increasing the number of gardaí, a measure which would still not be sufficient. The new gardaí must be specialised. Community policing was the best thing that ever happened in the inner city of Dublin. We have had some excellent community gardaí. Let us have people who know the area, the people, the families and the streets. I am fortunate enough to have a little house in Cyprus, a country with practically no crime. The reason for this is that if anyone even steals something from a shop, the entire family becomes criminalised and community action comes into play.

I ask the Minister for information on the question of mobile telephone use in cars. This is an extraordinarily dangerous practice. I see many drivers, including drivers of heavy good vehicles, with one hand on the wheel and the other holding a telephone. Apparently, there is some kind of legal difficulty in prosecuting this behaviour. I ask that something be done about it.

I understand from newspaper reports that the penalty points system will come into operation, but only in terms of speeding. This is laughable. The area in which it is really needed is drink driving, which, it seems, will be exempt, although the newspapers may be wrong. I ask the Minister for reassurance in this respect. The fact that it will apply to speeding is a nonsense because the whole policy is incoherent. In various parts of Dublin, one passes from what appears to be a motorway into another type of road, also apparently a motorway, on which the speed limit suddenly changes arbitrarily and one can be fined and receive penalty points for breaking it. My feeling is that this has been done to make money and apply points. It is unreasonable that one should not be given penalty points for being drunk out of one's skull and a danger to people when one receives them for breaking arbitrary speed limits. It is a stupid approach which needs to be reviewed.

I could not agree more with the Minister's comments on drink related violence. For years I have been warning this House about the development of these enormous hangars in the centre of Dublin. In the old days a Dublin pub had something special about it. One went out, had one's pint or short in a pub and held a conversation. Now one cannot hear a damn word. The whole idea is to push as much drink as possible. The drink companies have no conscience. They are drug peddlers and we should investigate them. They are not even Irish any more. We used to have Uncle Arthur who had a social conscience. Our companies have been gobbled up by multinationals whose target is to increase sales year after year. In the past couple of years, consumption has increased by 50%.

What are the judges doing with regard to the planning laws? Why are they giving licences to pubs in my area, for example, where, despite machine gun attacks and murders, new lapdancing clubs are opening all the time? Who licenses these places? We all know perfectly well that many of them are run by the mafia.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach:

I remind the Senator that the Judiciary is independent.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I do not care. The matter should still be investigated and I still want to know what the judges are doing. I will agree, however, not to mention judges by name. Let us look into who is granting licences these days. I have been in court when applications are rubber-stamped without a single question being asked about the suitability of the people running these places.

While CCTV cameras are a wonderful idea, half the time they are not monitored, the film is scrubbed or they are pointed in the wrong direction. The idea is good, but the policy must be implemented properly.

On the question of children's recreation, we must provide recreational services for them in the inner city. Where I live we have the wonderful Breaking the Cycle programme. It is heartbreaking, however, that when they reach a certain age, the children are kicked back onto the streets where they exposed to drugs. We must do something radical and this is the Minister who could do it.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I welcome the Minister. I, too, have many things for him to do. The previous Minister, a great enthusiast for prisons, initiated a very extensive prison building programme. We have now reached the top of the league in Europe in terms of many aspects of our penal system. For example, we have the highest throughput of prisoners in Europe, the highest recidivism rate – 89% – which is utterly astonishing, and the most expensive prison system. It costs more than €1,000 per week to keep a prisoner incarcerated here. We also have the highest proportion of under 21 year olds in custody. I am not enthusiastic about our position at the top of the league in all these areas.

I was extremely concerned by the findings of a report commissioned in 1999 by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Published in August 1999 under the title, A Survey of the Level of Learning Disability (Mental Handicap) among the Prison Population in Ireland, the study was carried out by Mr. Michael Murphy, Dr. Mark Harrold, Dr. Seán Carey and Mr. Mark Mulrooney. I strongly recommend the Minister read the report if has not yet had the opportunity to do so.

The survey covered 10% of the prison population. Psychologists visited all 14 prisons in the State. Alphabetical lists of the inmates were drawn up and each tenth prisoner on the lists was interviewed, unless he or she was considered by the governor or his representative to be unsuitable for the purpose. The vast majority of prisoners asked to co-operate with the study did so. During the one hour interview a number of assessments were made, including the Kaufman Brief Intelligence Test which examines reading, writing and mathematical ability. To their horror, the researchers discovered that 28.8% of the prison population scored below 70% in the test, which denotes severe disability or mental handicap. The equivalent level in the general population is 2% to 3%. What was also extraordinarily worrying was that a comparison of the scores here with those of prison populations in other countries, for example, Australia and the United Kingdom, found that the scores of prisoners elsewhere were very similar to those in the respective general population. Ours, on the other hand, were ten times higher.

The study found significant differences between the group with this very low intelligence quotient indicating serious learning disabilities and other groups. The former had spent far fewer years at school and one of the most interesting facts to emerge – I ask Senator Walsh to take note – was its very high dropout rate in the first two years at secondary school. The average age at which the prisoners in question left school was 13.7 years, whereas among other prisoners it was 15.1 years. The researchers pointed out that this was the stage at which the number of remedial teachers in schools drops off severely. In their recommendations they argued that the most important way to keep people out of prison would be to increase the number of remedial teachers catering to pupils of that age, not reintroduce corporal punishment.

They also pointed out that the vast majority of the prisoners in question had been unemployed – query unemployable – before they became involved in crime. Many of them did not have any skills and none had a profession. The prisoners examined ranged in age from 16 to 64 years, but it was a much younger group who had learning disabilities, the average age of whom was 26 years. The average age of other prisoners was 29 years. Among prisoners in the Curragh and Arbour Hill there was no significantly younger group with learning disabilities or a mental handicap because such prisoners are mainly imprisoned for sex offences and were found to be very much on a par with the general population.

Another extremely worrying finding was that only 28% of those with learning disabilities were involved in preparing for examinations, compared to 48% of the general prison population, although it is good to see that 45% of them were receiving some form of remedial education. I wish to share some of my time with Senator Quinn.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach:

The Senator has two minutes left in total.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I suggest that the Minister looks at these recommendations which strongly advise an increase in the number of remedial teachers and training of gardaí, prison officers and judges. One has to ask the value there is in putting the people under discussion in prison because doing so leads merely to their involvement with hardened criminals. Sadly, they are then led into further episodes of crime on release. They are simply being contained for a short time.

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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I thank Senators Norris and Henry for allowing me to contribute on this subject, even if only to make one point. The Minister has spoken very well today and covered the area he set out to cover. He spoke of a multi-faceted approach, but I want to focus on educational disadvantage, an aspect about which Senator Henry has just talked. If we allow to continue what has happened here in recent years, one section of society will be left out because of educational disadvantage. Disadvantaged persons have not shared in the growing prosperity we have seen and find that they have been left behind from the very beginning. I have had the opportunity to be involved in an aspect of education in recent years and learned that some people are at the back of the class from the very first years of schooling. They lose contact with the class, which is the root cause of the problem.

The Minister has been very good today in speaking about the various ways in which he will tackle crime, but I am talking about getting to its root. We have to do something about educational disadvantage by investing money. For 20 years or more we have been tinkering with the edges of the problem, investing amounts of money which are tiny when compared to the task in hand. Our failure is exemplified by this debate.

Even if we continue to pass many laws, build as many prisons and employ and empower as many gardaí as we like, we will not get to the root of the problem. We are approaching it like someone who copes with a flooded house by buying more buckets when what he or she should be doing is making repairs. While this is not the immediate responsibility of the Minister, it is for Cabinet to ensure that, among the challenges and financial difficulties we face, one of the issues it tackles is educational disadvantage. I say this, not just from the perspective of fairness and equity, though every citizen should receive an equal education, but also from the point of view of self-interest. It is in our interest to do this because if we manage to tackle the issue, we will have a much better chance of eradicating crime.

Photo of Tony KettTony Kett (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and I am glad of the opportunity to speak on this very important issue. I am delighted that the debate thus far has been so constructive and positive. Given the seriousness of the issue, we need to put all our heads together to tackle crime.

It is a statistical fact that we have made significant progress since 1997 with a major decrease in the level of serious crime, though it is disappointing to hear the Minister say 2001 saw crime figures rise by 18%. That might be the result of an increase in funding with the amount included in the Garda Vote going from €472 million to €999 million in the current year.

A very important issue is the strength of the Garda which now stands at 11,700 and will, I hope, increase to 12,000 by the end of the year, as suggested. We have increased the number of gardaí by 900 since 1997 which has to be good because there is no better deterrent than the old one of the garda tramping the beat. When I last checked, the number of prison places had increased by 1,300 with a possible 700 more on the way. I hope this has put paid to the revolving door syndrome. During Deputy O'Donoghue's tenure as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform over the last five years, in excess of 45 Bills were enacted to serve in the war against crime.

I welcome the funding of €110 million allocated under the National Development Plan 2000 to 2006 for crime prevention and which is directed specifically at young offenders. The Minister's comments regarding the tragic murder in Coolock of young Alan Higgins, allegedly by a 15 year old, serve to remind us of the wisdom of that funding and the direction in which it is being spent. It is the belief of most Members of this House that public disorder and street violence by young male offenders is the most serious issue facing us. The problem is not unique to this country and the Minister alluded to the fact that the multi-faceted approach is the appropriate one, as all common sense analysis has proven during the years. We must involve our educationists and health and housing officials and consider, in particular, the design of housing estates. The housing estates that have cropped up in this city over the last 30 years have, in their own way, served to bring about a significant level of crime and caused the ghettoisation of certain communities, which has not helped. One does not want to pick out areas, but they are known and the statistics show that is the case.

The probation and welfare service is wonderful and at any given time may deal with as many as 5,000 offenders fulfilling community-based sanctions under its supervision. The service is also involved in the management of offenders and the development of programmes as an alternative to custodial sentences. This can be good, particularly when dealing with youngsters. The increase in funding for the service has been in the region of 116% since 1997 and staff numbers have risen from 46 to 268, which represents money well spent. We should continue to highlight this area. The number of Garda youth diversion projects which have also played their has gone from 12 to 65. This type of funding and focus which diverts money towards securing the well-being of young people and possible young offenders represents the way forward.

There is a clear perception in the community that youngsters under 16 years of age are not treated in the same way as adults and that a form of softly, softly approach is taken to them. There is truth in this which manifests itself in the syndrome of joyriding with offenders knowing damn well that they can joyride until the cows come home and that, if they get caught, they will be out the following morning thumbing their noses at the law. That is not good. We need an overall crime policy directed at young people, against which no one would argue. There comes a time when the concerns of law abiding citizens equal, if not outweigh, those of the young offender of 14 or 15 years of age.

If a judge remands a young offender and then finds there is no space for him or her to be detained in Oberstown or Trinity House, that can cloud the judge's focus in such a way that the young offender can walk away from a situation from which he or she otherwise would not. In that sense, there is little deterrent for young offenders because they know this is the situation and they probably know it better than some people working in the Four Courts. To his credit, the previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform set aside a portion of a prison to cater for young people convicted of serious crimes. I am not sure about the status of that provision, if it is still in existence or how it is working.

Since 1995 we have made progress on tackling crime, if one considers there were some 105,000 indictable crimes at that time. The position has improved. At that time the drug barons in this city were thumbing their noses at the law. They are now truly convinced of the commitment of this and the previous Government to rid this city of their activities, but that war continues.

Senator Terry mentioned the CCTV system, a welcome development, although it should not be considered a replacement for gardaí on patrol. It is an aid to them. I hope it alone will not be the only deterrent in place, although its existence is welcome.

The misuse of drugs and drink is probably the greatest threat to our society. We can all play a part, even young people presenting themselves in Garda cells, in tackling these problems. Early diagnosis can bring about early intervention. Such matters should occupy our thinking. We must provide whatever resources are necessary to strengthen the law on underage drinking, a point alluded to earlier.

The Intoxicating Liquor Act, 2000, was a good one, a provision of which is the age card system to detect young people under the age of 18 buying alcohol. It was encouraging to hear the Minister say that there are more than 70,000 age cards in existence. That shows that young people who wish to drink are observing the law. I know of a publican in this city against whom there are four claims for being overenthusiastic about this provision. He has been told he is discriminating against young people who do not have an age card, but he insists on the presentation of that card and good luck to him.

Parents, teachers, community leaders and all of us need to participate in the fight against crime. We cannot leave it to the gardaí to fight the cause of it. It is most important for people, particularly the elderly, to feel safe in their communities. Attacks on the elderly in isolated areas are the most despicable and cowardly acts any person can perpetrate. The fear and apprehension of the elderly and their families concerning such attacks are dreadful. The community alert scheme launched last year, or earlier this year, has been a good source of comfort to the elderly. I am not sure how effective it is or what has been the feedback on it, but I can only imagine that the putting in place of any regulation or system such as that must be positive. We must all play our part in this; it is not good enough to leave this fight to the gardaí. The concept of good neighbourliness must be put into practice. If we all go down the right road in this regard, we can hopefully rid ourselves of the level of crime in our society.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Labour)
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I welcome the Minister to the Chamber. I am hopeful about the work he will do in this area, even though I am a member of the Opposition. I agree with him that there is a need for a multifaceted approach to tackling crime.

One aspect of tackling crime which was also raised by Senator Walsh is the role local authorities can play in preventing it. It is important that local authorities are resourced to do their work. Cutbacks in local authority funding were announced recently, which is not a good direction to go if we are serious about tackling crime.

Anti-social behaviour, which can range from minor to major offences, is a serious problem in my area. If young people get involved in anti-social behaviour, the chances are they will become involved in more serious crime later on. I saw children as young as eight years of age set fire to public lighting in my area and one wonders what they might do when they get older. The extension of a community warden service throughout local authorities would be a good measure. Park rangers should also be in place in all our parks, which currently is not case as local authorities do not have the necessary funding to provide for them.

More resources are required for estate management. I agree with Senator Kett's point on estate design. The gardaí set up an arrangement last year to provide for liaising with county councils on estate design, but the county council in my area does not appear to have taken that on board. It is important to provide resources for the putting in place of more CCTV cameras. If we adopt the approach of zero tolerance, we need to address the problem of minor crimes such as causing litter and vandalism.

It is important that local authorities are given the proper resources to provide facilities for young people and to tackle problems such as drug abuse, abandoned cars and so on. The education aspect is important in preventing crime. Anti-crime programmes dealing with joy-riding and other crimes should be in place in schools. We need to instil civic mindedness and a respect for the environment in young people. I recognise that type of work is carried out in schools, but the necessary back-up must be provided.

There is also the issue of equality in society. I agree with the comments about the importance of having a Garda presence. It is important to have gardaí on the streets, partly to make people feel secure about their local areas, but also to help the gardaí develop a relationship with members of their communities. It is bad for that relationship if gardaí only appear in a patrol car in the community when something has gone wrong. It is helpful if they are on the beat in the day time so that members of the public can talk to them. The community garda service is important. From talking to gardaí, I am aware they have many new responsibilities which are valid, but we should not let community policing take a back seat because it is important in terms of crime prevention.

Gardaí need to be assisted in their work in terms of the types of cars provided, an issue to which many recent incidents draw attention. The equipment they have is not up to scratch. They need good modern equipment to protect them and others and to help them do their job to the best of their ability.

Providing support for people released from prison is another issue that needs to be addressed. This is related to the provision of housing and local authority funding. A constituent whose son is due to be released from prison told me recently that she is afraid to let him back into her house because he might endanger her tenancy with the county council. She is also worried that if she does not take him in, he will end up on the streets and become involved in crime again. While we need to provide more resourcing for the gardaí, garda accountability and efficiency are also important. I support Labour's proposal for an independent Garda authority and Garda ombudsman.

I wish to raise a matter that is a little removed but relevant to this debate. The image on one of the No to Nice campaign's posters of a young man with a gun to his head is terrible. That image is on display in my area and it is a very bad one. I do not think that type of image would be allowed in advertising products and I do not see why it should be allowed in political campaigns. That needs to be looked at. I am fully supportive of freedom of speech but, if this continues, it will be a bad aspect of political campaigning.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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I congratulate the Minister, Deputy McDowell, on his appointment and I am sure he will be an excellent reforming Minister. He has some exceptional public servants at his side who have contributed a great deal. Whatever may have been the case in the past, there is much progress and enlightenment to be found in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform today. Very good progress was made by his predecessor, but the benchmark of success will be the ability to describe cities and towns as safe. There are cities in Europe that are described as safe, but I am not sure we can say that about too many of our cities; there is clearly a distance to go.

Everyone is subject to the law. Without getting into the Minister's opening remarks on clerical sexual abuse I note, in an historical sense, that the State has now become distinctly Gallican as opposed to ultramontane. I have some reservations about some of the very strong points made by Senator Norris regarding equality legislation. The ethos of institutions is very important to minorities as well as majorities. I was present at meetings between the Taoiseach and representatives of four of the main churches. One does not want to see circumstances where a teacher is dismissed because of something in their private life, but neither does one want people in a school or an institution who are openly, consciously and deliberately undermining its ethos. I have some sympathy with Senator Walsh and Senator Norris regarding corporal punishment. I have no doubt that there are some downsides to it but the risk of physical abuse is so great that I would not be prepared to accept it.

I congratulate the Garda on the exceptional vigour and success with which it has managed to get on top of dissident paramilitary activity in recent years. That has been apparent since the Omagh bombing, but even before that I recall that it alerted the Government very early on about the formation of the Real IRA. I would not necessarily take the statement released at the weekend by Real IRA prisoners in Portlaoise prison at face value – one might want to examine some of their motives. In a way it is a declaration of political and ideological bankruptcy and that has more than a little to do with the successful pressure applied by the Garda. While it is very understandable that relatives are very upset about the terrible tragedy that befell them, it is not fair to be critical of the gardaí. They have prosecuted the issue with exceptional vigour and have been in no way soft. The first priority was to make sure that further attacks of that type did not happen. As far as I know there has only been one further victim of the Real IRA since the Omagh bombing.

Protection of the person is the most important thing. Like Senator Terry, a son of mine was attacked in an entirely unprovoked manner in Temple Bar – excessive drinking obviously had something to do with it. I would wish to see people highlighting and stressing the long-term health effects that excessive drinking will have on young people, many of whom will have terrible health problems in 20 years time. There is a case for variable rules at local level, subject to overall national limits.

Picking up on a point made by Senator Jim Walsh, we should look closely at the Patten report to see what might be applicable here. The idea of district policing partnerships, involving people from local authorities rather than having an over-centralised system, might have a great deal to recommend it. Law and order is not just about protecting the property and persons of the middle classes. In many ways law and order problems are worse in particular estates. There was a very strong demand in Clonmel for a form of community policing and for things like lighting to be fixed. There has been an ongoing problem there for ten or 20 years. Law abiding people who live on estates feel intimidated and their property can be vandalised. There is a major social justice task to be undertaken.

I am somewhat distressed by the pervasive drug culture that seems to exist in certain prisons. I feel that it should not be so and that it may be liberalism carried to excess. I strongly support everything Senator Henry said about promoting education and rehabilitation in prison and encouraging people to do that.

The issue of rural Garda stations is one that will often come before the Minister. I can understand, as with rural post offices, that there may be a case for concentrating resources as some kind of rational efficiency. On the other hand, one must not underestimate the confidence factor in a village of having a resident member of the Garda who can liaise with the wider force as necessary.

Some gardaí got into trouble during a recent anti-globalisation protest and were seen as being too heavy-handed, but I do not want to discuss the merits of the particular case. I was in Gothenberg when its main street – perhaps due to the too softly-softly approach of the police – was absolutely wrecked. The Minister for Finance was holed up for several hours in his hotel as the mob rampaged. Unfortunately, there are people who want to provoke violence in such circumstances and, better still, provoke an over-reaction from the police. I have some sympathy for the Garda in respect of this matter and do not want Dublin to be wrecked in the future because of some kind of anti-globalisation demonstration. While I accept that people have the right to protest and march peacefully, they must realise that a certain balance has to be achieved.

I wish the Minister well during his period in office.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister, whose contribution was most enlightening. He has been described by Members on the other side of the House as a reforming Minister, but we on this side will take our time and judge him on his actions. We wish him well in his work during the coming years.

There is no doubt that the drink culture which has enveloped the country has contributed significantly to the rise in the number of public order offences. I am delighted that the Minister referred to the issue of public order and that the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill will be introduced to deal with many of these offences.

The changes to late night opening hours introduced by the previous Government should be re-examined. It is when pubs and clubs close in the early hours that difficulties arise. Gardaí are in the dreadful position of trying to deal with the hooligans who, drunk out of their minds, leave pubs and clubs and go into chip shops and take aways. Any garda who has been on night duty will tell one that most of the trouble starts outside establishments of this nature. An argument erupts and is usually followed by the type of violent crime about which we too often read in the newspapers.

Mobile phone theft, to which a previous speaker referred, is extremely prevalent, particularly as it relates to schoolchildren who are being assaulted and having their mobile phones stolen, which is absolutely disgraceful. I understand that in Amsterdam and other places stolen mobile phones can be rendered inoperable. The Minister and the Garda should investigate the possibility of putting in place mechanisms here which would facilitate this. I believe the number of mobile phone thefts in Amsterdam has been significantly reduced as a result of the action taken there.

A number of Members referred to violence in communities and that fact that such communities are being held to ransom by young thugs. Whether we like to hear it, this is a common occurrence throughout the country. Decent, law-abiding citizens are afraid to come out of their houses after 8 p.m. In the past one would not let a woman go out on her own late night, but able-bodied men are now afraid to walk the streets in many cities and towns. This is not the type of country in which we want to live. We must give the Garda proper resources to deal with these thugs and make the punishment fit the crime. I am not in favour of all these liberal ideas, I believe in making the punishment fit the crime at all times. I am delighted that the Minister stated detention will always be required for some of these thugs who have no respect for law and order, property or anything else.

The additional gardaí we have been promised must be appointed. The Minister must take action in this regard. I take on face value his claim that he will deliver on the promises made.

The number of gardaí on duty in urban areas at night is another matter to which consideration must be given. It would be frightening if members of the public learned how many gardaí are on duty at night in cities such as Waterford because I was certainly shocked when I discovered the true position. One will not obtain information about this issue directly because one is informed that it is an operational matter. However, there are ways to find out and it is frightening that there are so few gardaí on duty when needed. I refer here to the time of the night when pubs, discos and clubs close their doors. It is then that we must have gardaí on duty.

Freeing up gardaí to do their duty is another matter which must be addressed. The Minister is aware that our courts are flooded with gardaí who people believe should be out on the streets. I accept that these gardaí may be obliged to give evidence in cases or whatever, but we must give consideration to how they might otherwise be deployed.

I will now hand over to Senator Ulick Burke.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Are the Senators sharing time?

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Wait one moment.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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It was agreed.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I did not hear it being agreed.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I apologise, Cathaoirleach.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is it agreed that the Senators may share time? Agreed.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and congratulate him on the openness he displayed with regard to the current problem of crime. He has stated one of his priorities is the creation of trust among the various people who deal with crime and that he perceives the necessity for change within the Garda and the manner in which the force is structured. His comments in that regard are welcome.

I wish to highlight the inactivity of the Minister's predecessor, who promised a review of the Garda's rural policing programme. As Senator Mansergh stated, the majority of rural Garda stations are, other than for a period of one hour, closed each day. In the past communities at large welcomed, co-operated with and supported members of the Garda who lived within their communities and worked effectively to prevent crime. The trust they built up, however, has disappeared. I hope the Minister's undertaking to re-establish that trust will lead to the reopening, in a meaningful way, of all Garda stations in small towns and villages in rural areas because it is important for people to see the visible presence of a garda within their community.

As previous speakers stated, it is not acceptable that Garda cars merely speed into areas and drive through them and that this is seen as good policing or effective crime prevention. Such patrols are almost always disrupted by virtue of the fact that a traffic accident may have occurred in another area and the Garda car is obliged to speed off to the scene.

The Minister referred to increasing the number of gardaí, but his comments do not reflect reality. When one takes retirements, replacements and all other factors into consideration, the number of gardaí is actually decreasing. As a result, the Garda presence is scattered and totally ineffectual. It is easy for people to refer to the ineffectiveness of the Garda in terms of crime prevention, but unfair and wrong to make such comments because gardaí do the best they can in the prevailing circumstances. Statistics prove, however, that they are ineffective. It is a shameful indictment that many members of the public are unwilling to report crime to the Garda because they know their complaints will not be dealt with as they are viewed as being insignificant. That is the reality.

The Minister referred to the flowers in the pot and offered a number of rosy pictures in his presentation, but what will be done about the long promised CCTV systems for the towns and cities? That is not happening. We are depending on the Garda for protection and any technology that may be used to provide protection for the community.

It is an indictment of all public representatives that over the last five years we have succumbed to pressure from publicans to extend the licensing hours. It was done in order that we could modernise our arrangements in consultation with other European countries, but the reality is a history of intoxication, hardship for families and all that goes with it. If the Minister is to be reforming, I urge him to tackle immediately the issue of opening hours and the ready availability of drink for the young. He referred to identity cards. One could have a bag of cards, but they are useless if the doors are opened and there is free availability of drink. If the Minister can prevent this and other related problems, such as drink driving and drugs, he will be remembered for a long time.

Derek McDowell (Labour)
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It is customary for a Minister to attempt to reply to most of the points raised. Although I kept careful note of the points to which I would like to reply, I would need an hour to do so.

Senator Jim Walsh made a number of interesting points, one of which, which was echoed by other Senators, including Senators Mansergh and Terry, related to the interaction of the police force with local communities. One of the things I hope to do in the new legislation on the Garda Síochána is examine a formal statutory basis for local police partnerships of one kind or another. I want to consult deeply and widely on the issue, but I am aware from my colleagues in the Lower House that there has sometimes been considerable disquiet on the part of members of local authorities that their relationship with the police, which is sometimes good and sometimes not so good, is based on a relationship of inequality. It is not the function of the police to interact with local authority members. What I am tempted to do – it is subject to getting the sanction of the Government – is put in place something that would reflect the Patten report emphasis on local policing, local political involvement in policing and interaction between local government representatives and the police force. It is necessary to have the valuable, direct responsibility of the Garda Síochána to the Minister and the Houses of the Oireachtas, but something more in terms of accountability and interaction with elected public representatives is required. I am interested in examining this issue.

A number of Senators and Deputies have asked whether we should revisit the issue of the licensing hours. The growth in alcohol consumption in Ireland was significant for a long time at the end of which the change in the licensing hours only occurred. One cannot, therefore, attribute the growth in consumption of drink to the licensing hours. Nonetheless, I am sympathetic to the notion that there should be some role for local authorities in determining licensing hours in their areas. It may well be that there are areas of our larger cities which should have later hours than others and that in quieter parts of the country the community might prefer the active nightlife in their areas to come to a close at an earlier hour than in other places.

It would not be such a terrible thing – I voice this on an entirely speculative basis but would be interested to get the reaction of Senators – if local authorities were to be given a significant role in deciding what the opening times for various types of premises in their areas should be. It is easy to think of a small rural town which wants to close early and does not want its youth hanging around its chip shops at three and four in the morning. It is equally arguable that a one size suits all approach does not suit and that there should be all night cafes in large cities or in the centres of large cities. In the gaming and lotteries business, the amusement arcades were left to the discretion of local authorities which had to decide if they wanted to be like Bundoran, Ballybunion or wherever. In addressing the question that is increasingly being raised as to whether we were wise to extend licensing hours, there might be scope for simply saying it is a matter for people to choose and facilitating a varied approach across the country determined by local government.

Senator Norris invited me, in the course of a wide ranging and passionate speech, to revisit the issue of equality and the position of denominational education under our equality legislation. He linked it to the sexual abuse scandal. I cannot follow whether there was a logical sequitur in his argument. He felt outraged that somebody such as himself, on account of his sexual orientation, could have been the subject of unfair treatment in the past.

If we believe in denominational education and the rights of people to run private educational institutions, we must accept that those institutions must have a right to maintain their ethos. While observing due equality for all in the teaching profession, we can sometimes query whether the religious ethos of one institution requires more significant treatment of employees at the recruitment stage than other schools. I am of the view that a Jewish school should be entitled to give preference to Jewish teachers, a Catholic school to Catholic teachers, a Protestant school to Protestant teachers and a non-denominational school, if it so wished, to people who are liberal free thinkers and do not fit into any category.

I am against the one size suits all approach or the notion that there should be a uniform rule which would apply in every case because diversity in education is valuable. I echo Senator Mansergh's comments on the point made by Senator Norris. It was not the Roman Catholic church or the churches in the Republic which sought this provision. When I was Attorney General I was struck by the fact that Northern denominations came to Dublin to argue that, at European level, their rights to denominational education should be preserved. Therefore, it is not simply a matter concerning the legislation of this State. Ireland insisted that EU equality directives should not encroach upon the rights of private denominational education to maintain their own cultural ethos.

Some Senators spoke about the increasing noisiness in so-called super pubs. I would simply say to Senator Norris, however, that as one gets older, one's hearing disimproves. I have found that to be so.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Norris is forever young.

Photo of Michael McDowellMichael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)
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On a serious note, I have been encouraged by the positive and understanding nature of this debate.

We live in a society with a growing and increasingly urbanised population, yet policing resources are finite. For the time being also, our society has more people in the 15-25 age cohort where criminality is common, particularly among males. These are facts of life and, therefore, increasing demands are being made on our police force due to increasing levels of criminality. The contributory causes of crime have to be tackled, including unequal access to education and the design of housing estates. There is no simple solution.

In the context of criminality and the alienation of young people, I am still passionately attached to Part 5 of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act which is designed to prevent ghettoisation. It is aimed at ensuring that we no longer build vast suburbs with no proper social facilities because those destined to live in them are from the lowest end of the socio-economic scale. They are most in need of access to decent shopping, housing and recreational facilities, yet they have found themselves ghettoised in the most deprived areas. Whatever adjustments are made to that Act in future, it is a step in the right direction. If we live in a republic, everyone should be willing to live alongside people who are richer or poorer. Pressure from strong interest groups should not be allowed to cause such an enlightened social policy to unravel.

I thank Members for their courtesy and the careful thought they put into their contributions. Although I could not possibly revisit all the points that have been raised, I have listened carefully to the entire debate and I will take those matters into consideration. Moreover, I would welcome any suggestions that Members of the House may make in the context of the ongoing and never-ending debate on crime and its causes.