Seanad debates

Thursday, 24 October 2002

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business today is Nos. 1, statements on crime, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and all other Senators five minutes, to conclude not later than 1 p.m. and on which Members may share time; and No. 2, motion on Seanad reform (resumed). The Whips are to meet to discuss arrangements for No. 2 as they did not have time to do so this morning. The debate may or may not conclude today, but we should be able to work out a likely timetable when the Whips meet. Senator Higgins is currently in possession on this matter and has eight minutes left for his contribution. On this item, Members have 20 minutes each and may share time.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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Is the Leader proposing that on the statements on crime spokesmen should have 15 minutes each and that every subsequent speaker ten minutes?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The contributions of spokespersons are not to exceed 15 minutes and all other Senators five minutes. However, Members may share time.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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There is a view on this side that ten minute contributions might be more sensible because Members will be better able to share time.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I have no difficulty with that.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I thank the Leader. Will she inquire from the Government about the latest state of play with regard to the funding of the GAA's project to fully complete the development of Croke Park? I understand that the total sum of money involved for this development will be in the region of €240 million. When one considers that the Government has already given €70 million to the project and that the GAA is seeking a further €40 million, the total taxpayer's allocation will come to 40% of the estimated overall cost. Would it be possible for the Minister to obtain a commitment from the Government that, before additional funding is forwarded to the GAA for the purpose of completing Croke Park, two guarantees will be sought from the association, namely, that it will agree to provide the Croke Park facilities for the 2008 European Championships and, more importantly, that it will agree to open up what is a magnificent stadium to soccer, rugby and other sports?

It is ridiculous that we have a wonderful national stadium in Croke Park which cannot be used for any other purposes, particularly as taxpayers have contributed 40% of the total cost of the redevelopment project. In light of the downturn in the public finances and the need to extend sporting opportunities, we must obtain the guarantees to which I refer from the GAA before additional public money is committed to the organisation. I ask the Leader to take up this matter with the Government.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator should really be addressing his remarks to the Cathaoirleach.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach cannot say anything on this matter.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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If the Cathaoirleach wishes me to say anything on that matter I will be happy to facilitate him. Support for all sporting organisations is of major importance. In past debates on crime and alcohol, Members have always noted that the nub of the issue revolves around how people use their time. Whatever our views on the principal issue of funding the GAA, it should be recognised that this organisation has a major input to Irish society in terms of guiding young people in a positive way. While I understand the points raised by Senator Hayes – I do not disagree with his fundamental argument – I do not believe that significant conditions should be attached to the operations of a great national organisation which makes a huge contribution to Irish life. I did not intend to make a contribution on this matter. However, the Cathaoirleach nodded to me and I believe he felt that Senator Hayes's remarks were being made in a vacuum.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I do not remember doing that.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I was about to be cut off at the ankles.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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When the issue of clerical child abuse was raised yesterday, we asked the Leader to consider engaging with the Government or the appropriate Minister in order to arrange a debate. Our requests for a such a debate were not rhetorical because this matter must be discussed. As stated yesterday, we are not shooting from the hip on this, we are merely raising the issues as they arise. I would like a transparent investigation of the sort of agenda pursued by those people who tried to object to young children obtaining the information and confidence they need to protect themselves against abuse.

Senator Norris made the point yesterday that in a previous debate Members heatedly argued that it was completely wrong that the church could be exempt from certain parts of the equality legislation. Under the law of the land teachers can be sacked for holding an inappropriate set of beliefs, whereas people in the church found guilty of child abuse do not have to take responsibility for their actions. They continue blithely on their way as priests, which is wrong. To reaffirm my comments yesterday, I ask the Leader to bring forward an outline plan of how we might rectify this and make a valid contribution to the debate. We will not go away.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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It is worth pointing out that teachers have been sacked because church authorities have deemed their behaviour incompatible with the school ethos. It has happened in universities too – it happened in Maynooth. It is not, therefore, just a theoretical abstraction.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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It was upheld by a constitutional court.

Photo of Brendan RyanBrendan Ryan (Labour)
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Yes, it was upheld by the Supreme Court. I agree with Senator O'Toole. Our debate should not impinge on the criminal investigations, which I hope are now ongoing, but we need to reflect on the institutional arrangements in the State, the degree to which they can be used to cover up the crimes of individuals and, to the degree that it exists, how the well-being of an institution is assumed to be more important than the well-being of children. We need to look at issues such as the claims now emerging and the advice given in guides on Canon Law. It is not particularly about one institution but institutional arrangements.

There should be a debate on the funding of sports organisations. I have always believed the GAA is the softest target in the country. If one is going to do sums about taxpayer support for organisations, one should look at the contribution to the overall funding of the organisation. There is a pitch in virtually every parish and a clubhouse in every second parish into which went very little taxpayer's money. If one looks at the total capital investment of the GAA in the last 20 years, the proportion of funding that came from the taxpayer is shamefully small given the contribution it makes to society. We should not talk about issues such as Croke Park in isolation. I am seeking a debate on the funding of sports organisations generally because the record of successive Governments on this issue is nothing less than shameful.

Photo of Feargal QuinnFeargal Quinn (Independent)
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Now that we are part of Europe I wish to raise an issue that has become a hobbyhorse of mine. Next weekend we will, once again, lose an hour of daylight. I proposed some years ago that we should join central European time, even if the British do not come with us. As I said on a previous occasion, we should be willing to leave the nursery, even if nanny does not come with us. I have no wish to bring the matter up, but this is the appropriate week to do so. We should become part of Europe in this regard. There are benefits in social terms and for business and sport. More importantly, the evidence from the United Kingdom indicates that the number of road accidents would be reduced if daylight saving time was introduced. It makes sense. I will not make the case now, but urge the Leader to remind the relevant Minister of the need to look again at this matter.

Michael Brennan (Fianna Fail)
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I, too, seek a debate on the funding of sports organisations. I congratulate the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, on his statement last night regarding funding for Croke Park. The funding given to the Gaelic Athletic Association is in recognition of the tremendous work it does throughout the country at parish and all levels. The Minister said all applications will be examined on their merits. I would like him to address the House on the future funding of sports organisations.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food to intervene in the worsening dispute between the farming groups and meat processing plants? This dispute will have dire consequences for the farming community, meat exporters and workers employed in the plants. It is vital that somebody intervenes in the dispute as a matter of urgency. If the Leader finds the Minister is unwilling to intervene, perhaps she would use her considerable experience and her office in this House to intervene and bring both parties together in order that the dispute can be satisfactorily resolved. It is criminal that it has been allowed to continue during this critical time for the farming community.

Photo of Martin ManserghMartin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)
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In consultation with our spokesperson on transport, Senator Dooley, I wish to point out again that the House should have an early discussion about the proposed closure of rail freight. If necessary, we should raise the matter on the Adjournment at the next opportunity.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I wish to make a brief comment about the television sets in the Chamber. While they are a wonderful innovation, I am not sure why we need to see ourselves performing when we can already see each other perfectly. They do a great deal of good for Senator Mansergh who looks about 15 years younger on them.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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It is his hairdo.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I am curious about the reason they are in the House.

An issue I raised a couple of weeks ago seemed to provoke a certain amount of sensitivity, but I cannot remember the Leader's reply. I sought a debate on benchmarking and believe she said it would be held at some stage.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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It is particularly important now because at least two of the beloved social partners of the Government have said benchmarking cannot and should not be paid. This might be a matter of some embarrassment to Members of this House who will benefit from it and will be extremely conflicted if it is paid.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Shameful, shameful.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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The ATM machine.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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The only people left are the trade unions. Senator O'Toole finds himself once again in isolation against his partners—

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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Personal courage is a majority all on its own.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate on benchmarking?

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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I am.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can make those points during the debate.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. If I could seek that debate without interruptions from the president of the ICTU, who has a vested interest which he has not yet declared, I would be grateful.

The final point I wish to make is an important procedural one. Members of the House seem to be developing a habit of reading speeches in the House. That is a great shame.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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It is.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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It has long been the tradition in the House that only the Minister reads a scripted speech. It is difficult when one first becomes a Member of the House not to read a speech, but doing so reduces the level of debate.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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I concur with the Senator. I know scripted speeches are not allowed, but Members can refer to notes which are helpful.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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With the much heralded introduction of the penalty points system on 1 November, is the Government embarking on a publicity campaign to alert motorists to the different offences and the penalty points that will apply? Although it is not of direct interest to me, will the Leader of the House clarify if ministerial cars will be exempt from the penalty points system? I believe they should lead by example.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I must disagree with my colleague, Senator Quinn, with regard to daylight saving. As a distant connection of the late Bram Stoker who created Dracula, I consider myself a creature of the night and would prefer to see night time extended as far as possible.

With regard to GAA funding, I have had the privilege of being to Croke Park and it is a superb facility of which any country could be proud. I am delighted a wonderful place. On the other hand, there is good reason for us to look impartially at the funding arrangements. I remember, some years ago, examining data on lottery funding and page after page referred to funding for the GAA. Perhaps it is justified and maybe, as its members have said, it provides a valuable infrastructure that keeps small rural communities together. There is no doubt, however, that disproportionately massive funding goes to the GAA. Perhaps it is deserved but that is a fact. If Senators want the facts I will bring them to the House for the record.

Following on from what a number of Senators said yesterday, I support strongly what Senator O'Toole said concerning the horrible and shameful subject of the sexual abuse of children. Will the Leader request the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to bring to the House at an early date a re-examination of all equality legislation for precisely the reasons that Senator O'Toole and I have raised?

I wish to put a point on the record in order to advance the case. I am a Member of this House, in good standing. Certain schools in this country are paid for by taxpayers' money. Although I am a person of good character, I could be fired legally because I advocated homosexual law reform and because I acknowledged publicly that this is my sexual orientation. According to the laws of the land, the church authorities could fire me from a job paid for by taxpayers' money, while simultaneously protecting people who abused hundreds of children. I am in favour of discrimination on the basis of behaviour so that children can be protected, but I am not in favour of discriminatory attitudes which harm people of otherwise good character. As legislators we now have an opportunity to address this issue again.

All Governments have found themselves in this situation. The first time Senator O'Toole, myself and others discussed this point, we were arguing against a very progressive Labour Minister, Mervyn Taylor. He was not a conservative but, due to pressure from the churches, he found it impossible to act. As a result of these scandals, that pressure has weakened and this House can do an important job of reform by removing those exemptions by way of amendment to the equality legislation. The Minister should bring the legislation before the House once more.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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Perhaps I am interfering with Seanad protocol, but will the Leader request the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to initiate a debate in the Chamber, which would include our international diaspora, by way of tele-conferencing? I am calling for such a debate in light of the fact that local authority members and Members of the Oireachtas regularly visit Irish communities in America, Australia and elsewhere. We should examine the possibility of economic opportunities, harnessing the Irish diaspora around the world by using electronic methods to link up the participants in such a debate. Tele-conferencing could bring together members of the diaspora from as far apart as Dubai, Australia, Thailand, America, London and other places where Irish communities exist. I am encouraged by the board mindedness of debates in the House and we should promote that as much as possible.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I support the call by Senator Mansergh for a debate on the need for increased rail freight facilities in order to relieve our hard-pressed road network from traffic volumes for which it was never built to cater. Unfortunately, a Chathaoirligh, you had to disallow a similar matter I raised on a previous occasion, due to lack of ministerial responsibility.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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We cannot discuss that now.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that and I always respect your rulings, a Chathaoirligh. Can the Leader say whether community employment schemes will be reassigned between Departments? Following a meeting of one party yesterday, there was a report this morning that its members believed they had a greater responsibility for this matter, rather than a Minister of the other party who currently has responsibility for it. Perhaps the Leader could make a statement to the House on the matter.

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I wish to reiterate a request made to the Leader two or three weeks ago for a debate on the Government's proposed decentralisation programme. The programme was promised approximately three years ago. Understandably, it is difficult to make decisions concerning the various applicant towns, but it would be worthwhile to have a full debate on the broad programme of decentralisation, which is urgently required.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Labour)
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I support Senator Mansergh's call for a debate on rail freight. Having recently been in an accident involving a truck, I realise how lucky I was to come out of it alive. The increased use of rail freight to take more trucks off the roads is an important safety issue. Unfortunately, many accidents involving trucks cause deaths on our roads.

Jim Higgins (Fine Gael)
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This week somebody who confessed to the murder of two elderly ladies in Grangegorman refused to turn up at the inquest into their deaths, having already been convicted of killing two people in County Roscommon. It transpires that the fine for non-attendance at the coroner's court is a mere €5. It is obvious, therefore, that the Coroners Act is grossly outdated and there is an urgent need to revise the penalties. We need to examine how we can redress a situation where somebody who is centrally involved in someone's death can fail, with virtual impunity, to turn up at the coroner's court which is attempting to establish the cause of death. The Leader should bring the matter to the attention of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as it needs to be addressed urgently.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senators for their contributions. Senator Brian Hayes mentioned funding for the GAA and, particularly, the elusive sum of €40 million. He also mentioned the need to open up Croke Park – a wonderful facility – to other games in light of the joint Irish-Scottish bid to host the 2008 European football championships. I hope that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism will address the House in the near future when that issue can be considered.

I agree with Senator O'Toole's call for a rational and responsible debate on clerical child abuse and he has asked me to outline plans for such a debate. The leaders of the groups should meet to plan the structure of the debate and see who we would invite to participate in it. We want to contribute to the debate and do not wish to hinder any such discussion. We will arrange that after meeting with the group leaders.

Senator Ryan said that the reputation of an institution is often assumed to be more important than the individuals who are in its employment. Several Members, including myself, alluded obliquely to such a case where a teacher was sacked for what was perceived then to be a particular lifestyle with which the churches did not agree.

The debate on clerical child abuse has also thrown up the issue of church-State relationships. Many countries which have a separation of church and state still have huge trouble concerning clerical abuse, so I am not blaming it on that. However, there is a parallel implicit debate beginning to emerge about church-State relationships, which is a whole other issue.

Senator Quinn does not want us to lose the hour. There was a County Limerick village – perhaps Senator Brennan would have something to say about it – which stayed for several years on the other time and finally just got lost in the time warp issue. I heard it on the radio and I was fascinated by it.

Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)
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Are they still using the old money?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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No, they are not.

Senator Brennan praised his idea of the GAA and I note that the Cathaoirleach was enthused by the debate – without showing it, of course.

Senator Coonan wants the Minister for Agriculture and Food to intervene in the ongoing hugely divisive crisis. We will contact his office and see what is the immediate plan, if any, for resolution of that issue.

Senator Mansergh raised the issue of rail freight. Clearly there is a need for a debate on the matter. Perhaps we could speak about that too. Senator Tuffy also referred to that issue.

Senator Ross wonders why we have television in the Chamber. It is interesting because when one looks at the screen, one can see those behind one, which is always very necessary.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Well said.

A Senator:

The Opposition and the enemy.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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He is in the other House.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to continue.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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As I said at the parliamentary party meeting to the Taoiseach, if I knew then what I know now – I was just stating a fact. Likewise, the Opposition can see who is behind them.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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There is no one behind us.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Wait until Seanad reform is completed. On a more serious point, Senator Ross wants a debate on benchmarking. On that matter, serious talks have yet to begin between the partners, the Government and all the social pillars involved in it.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Independent)
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Why should we wait for that?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator did not let me finish. An introductory debate would be a good idea. There are divergent views. We heard Senator Mansergh talking about it previously. If we can corral the relevant Minister, it would be a good idea to debate the issue.

Senator Finucane raised something with which I am fully in agreement, the question of whether ministerial cars should be exempt from the strictures on speeding. I should not always talk about what I did or did not do, but I do not agree that Ministers should be exempt. Why should they? One should set off in time to get to one's appointment and not plead a State emergency or whatever.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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Lead by example.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Senator.

Senator Norris loves Croke Park, but wants a re-examination of the national lottery funding. He also wants the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to look at the plethora of equality legislation to see what progress has been achieved.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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The exemptions.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is here today. Several Senators raised issues relating his remit. They should ask him when he comes in because he is the relevant person.

Senator McHugh wants a debate with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, who was here yesterday and will be here again when we come back. I hope the Senator will raise it directly with the Minister, who has a most agreeable demeanour.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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That is a matter of opinion.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I would think that the Minister would welcome Senator McHugh's intervention when he is discussing the Digital Hub. After all, as I understand it, the Senator is talking about worldwide electronic communication with the diaspora. The Senator should raise the point with the Minister.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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On a point of information, what is the protocol in the Chamber?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I do not mind the Senator raising anything.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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No, I am referring to electronic link-up.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Unlike the Dáil, the Chamber does not have electronic voting. The least we would expect—

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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What about video and electronic link-up?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The least we would expect is that we would have electronic voting.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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It could be put on the website.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I do not know what happened the last time. That was not attended to, although it should have been; it is the most basic of rights. However, I will speak to the Senator about that matter.

Senator Coghlan also raised the issue of rail freight and asked about reassignment of community employment. I have not heard anything about that issue. The Tánaiste has responsibility for that matter and, in my opinion and, I am sure, in many others, she is doing an excellent job.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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That is right, slashing jobs by 50%.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I want to take up the communication from Senator Bradford about decentralisation, which is linked to the spatial study. Both of those issues must go together and there will be designation. The only spatial study report that came out was leaked. As soon as the full report is issued, we should have a debate on it, linked to decentralisation.

Senator Higgins asked about the threshold for fines under the Coroners Act. The Minister will be here and the Senator should raise it with him. He has said that he is very willing to listen to the views of Members on every matter and I suggest that the should Senator raise it with him.

Order of Business agreed to.