Seanad debates

Wednesday, 16 October 2002

2:30 pm

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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The Order of Business is No. 1, European Union (Scrutiny) Bill, 2002 – all Stages, with the contributions of spokespersons on Second Stage not to exceed 20 minutes, to be resumed after Private Members' Business, if not previously concluded; No. 2, motion re restoration to the Order Paper of the Immigration Bill, 2002, to be taken without debate; No. 3, motion re restoration to the Order Paper of the Official Languages (Equality) Bill, 2002, to be taken without debate; and No. 19, motion No. 9. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is in attendance and anxious to take the European Union (Scrutiny) Bill. In view of this, I propose that consideration of Nos. 4 to 16, inclusive, on the Order Paper, dealing with the establishment of committees of the Houses, be deferred until tomorrow.

Photo of Brian HayesBrian Hayes (Fine Gael)
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I have no difficulty with the Leader's proposal for dealing with Nos. 4 to 16, inclusive, on the Order Paper. Will she contact her colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, in connection with the growing problem of stabbings, especially in large towns and cities? She is no doubt aware that to date this year, of the 53 murders committed in the country, 25 were the result of violent and vicious stabbings. In view of the unfortunate events of the past weekend and the seeming rise of the knife sub-culture in some parts of the country, will she discuss this issue with the Minister to see if additional legislation is required to amend the Dangerous Weapons Act, 1990, to restrict further or prohibit the proliferation of these dangerous weapons?

The proposed Order of Business for tomorrow has only one item. We, on this side of the House, need to debate various issues. In view of this, it is inappropriate that only one item of legislation be debated on a sitting day. Unless there is a problem of a work to rule on the other side of the House, there is a need to include a number of items on the Order of Business for each sitting day to ensure relevant issues, such as the Flood tribunal interim report or Northern Ireland, raised last week in the House, can be debated when they first arise.

Photo of Joe O'TooleJoe O'Toole (Independent)
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I congratulate the Government side of the House on accepting and dealing with a Labour Party Bill today. It is a sign of a new approach. We hope the Government will be open to consideration of more Bills from this side of the House, especially from the Independent benches. Perhaps we will begin the process on Private Members' Business today.

I agree with Senator Hayes's comments on debating issues. Last year there was a major controversy over the housing issue. The decisions taken then have not worked. It is appalling that after all the argument about affordable housing, only 272 houses in that category were built last year. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government is being snowballed with requests from the building industry. If there is any sign of the Government caving in to its demands, there will be war. It is unacceptable. The House should clearly indicate it will not stand aside and see that happen.

The issue of Northern Ireland is even more crucial than housing and it is important that we express our views. There is an extraordinary gap which needs to be looked at. We must look at what can be done from this perspective. The answer has never been the Assembly alone but, as the people of this island saw it, the Good Friday Agreement to which we must restate our commitment. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, is coming to the House later. I ask the Leader to put it to him that we should now consider the re-establishment of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation which did not finish its business and did not deal with issues such as that of consent. It would be of some comfort to Unionists in Northern Ireland were they to see an absolute commitment to the principle of consent coming from the Oireachtas. I ask that these issues be put down for discussion and that at least one of them be taken tomorrow.

Derek McDowell (Labour)
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Senator Hayes raised the issue of the incident in which a 17 year old young man was killed in the constituency I formerly represented in the other House. I am sure the Leader will join me in expressing condolences to his family and, although I do not want to pre-empt legal proceedings, expressing our shock that it appears that those responsible may well have been under age. It brings up the issue to which Senator Hayes alluded, the knife culture that has arisen in this city, but it also brings up another issue of broader import, the way the justice system deals with child offenders. I know that those living in my part of the city who have followed what recently happened with shock and horror will also want to be reassured that the mechanisms are in place whereby the offenders, if they prove to be under age, can be dealt with efficiently and properly by our juvenile justice system. The evidence of recent years suggests that this may not be the case.

Last week on the Order of Business we debated the issue of foreign policy, specifically in regard to Iraq. Perhaps the Leader, and the Minister who will address us shortly, will draw a similar conclusion to those of us on these benches from what happened at the weekend in Bali, namely, that the threat of international terrorism is still very much alive and that the international community should not go down the cul de sac of looking for a regime change in Iraq when that terrorist threat is so obviously present. Likewise, I am sure the House will join in sending condolences to the representatives of those countries whose natives were killed in Bali, particularly Australia.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader notify the Minister for Education and Science of the crisis at third level, particularly in institutes of technology where many students are denied access to lectures due to insufficient personnel to provide them? First year students, in particular, who may have had a difficult transition from second to third level, have their woes compounded by this situation, although we are almost two months into the academic year. What will the Minister do with regard to providing proper education facilities for students who are in college from 9 a.m. until 7 p.m?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have a question for the Leader? He can make a speech if he is granted a debate.

Photo of Ulick BurkeUlick Burke (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader notify the Minister of the number of students denied the opportunity for education?

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I join those who have called for a debate in regard to violence and the use of weapons, particularly among young people. I call for a separate debate on the related subject of the increasing problem of under age drinking and the rising levels of alcoholism. It is the responsibility of the drinks industry to play a positive role. It is targeting the most vulnerable groups all the time. The consumption of alcohol has skyrocketed in a way that is unimaginable in any other country in Europe. Scenes of public drunkenness and disorder are perfectly visible all over our principal cities and towns.

Will the Leader say when the Government will address the issue of libel? I read newspaper reports that legislation in this area was being drafted. The House will be interested in this, as I certainly will be. Many politicians are nervous when it comes to newspapers and newspaper editors, although I am not. I would be concerned if suggestions I have seen put abroad are contained in the legislation, namely, the shifting of the onus of proof on to the defendant and away from the newspapers. We need to be careful.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach, but have two further small points to make. One is almost a housekeeping matter. I am sure Members have noticed that the interview room has suddenly disappeared without any advance warning. That fine room was very useful to Members for meetings, receiving delegations or making telephone calls. It has disappeared. I understand it has been grabbed by the Ceann Comhairle. Can this decision be reversed in the interests of Members?

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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That is a matter for the Superintendent of the Houses and the Senator should speak to him.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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Perhaps it should be drawn to his attention, but I am sure Members support me on this.

Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)
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It has been reallocated rather than disappeared.

Photo of David NorrisDavid Norris (Independent)
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A distinguished reporter well known in the House, Chris Glennon, has retired as political correspondent of the Independent Group. He rarely reported on the Seanad, but was a fine reporter. I am sure we are sorry to see him go and wish him well in his retirement.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator Brian Hayes's remarks about tomorrow's proposed Order Paper. It appears decidedly slack. I thought the Leader agreed last week that the House would debate the Flood report this week given that it was established by both Houses of the Oireachtas. Perhaps we should also have a debate on Northern Ireland, as suggested by Senator Hayes.

The Government has announced its intention to create a corruption assets bureau to pursue assets gained by the corruption of politicians and public officials. How it is intended to distinguish it from the Criminal Assets Bureau? Will the Leader inform the House when it is intended to introduce the legislation?

We have witnessed leaks in recent days concerning the proposed national spatial strategy, with considerable speculation about the proposed major growth centres. I noted from the leaks that the Leader's constituency fared well.

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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City status for Killarney.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I am not doing the leaking, in case the Senator thinks I am.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I was not suggesting that.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Has the Senator a question to the Leader?

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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I have. Will the Leader inform the House what is intended and when will we hear something definite? I am concerned that, if a line were drawn across the country, there would not be much south of it. Perhaps the Leader might comment on the matter.

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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Great minds think alike because I was about to raise the same issue as Senator Coghlan. I agree with what he said. The plan is to have six new cities, all in the northern half of the country. It is important we have a debate on decentralisation and the spatial strategy because it affects every area of life, especially transport, something of which I am aware because I am commuting again. I read with interest that it is considered desirable that 75% of all future jobs should be relocated.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator support Senator Coghlan?

Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)
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I do, a debate in the House would be timely.

Photo of Maurice CumminsMaurice Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader invite the Minister for Health and Children to the House to explain the Government's position on providing radiotherapy facilities in the regions, especially the south east? This issue concerning the Limerick region was raised previously by my colleague, Senator Finucane. The Minister would not meet Waterford City Council for a matter of months to discuss it. It was only when the council unanimously decided on Monday night last to bring their protest about this discourtesy to the Houses of the Oireachtas that the Minister agreed to meet it. He should come to the House and explain the Government's position regarding radiotherapy facilities.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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Several Senators mentioned the increase in violence, especially among young people, and in under age drinking. I call on the Leader of the House to ask the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House to explain why, at very short notice, he cancelled courses in both Trinity College, Dublin and University College Dublin for clinical psychologists, the very people who deal with such issues. There is a shortage of at least 50 clinical psychologists in health boards at present. There is also a shortage in the courts, the probation and welfare service and many other areas. When I asked the Minister for Education and Science, he knew nothing about this initiative.

With such an apparent need within the services, particularly in view of the problems that have been pointed out by other Senators, it is extraordinary that the Minister for Health and Children should have abandoned these courses at two weeks notice. As I stated during the education debate last week, some people gave up jobs to take part in the courses and were left high and dry.

Photo of Joe McHughJoe McHugh (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader of the House to invite the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, to the House to discuss IDA plans for attracting inward investment. To use a case study in the Milford area in Donegal, the IDA is trying to attract large-scale companies to a rural peripheral area, based on projections that there will be investment in services, broadband and roads. However, this is not happening and will not happen. I want the Tánaiste to tell us what are the IDA's plans and whether we are going down the right road in industrial investment. Maybe we should consider the creation of more indigenous jobs in rural areas.

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I also ask the Leader to invite the Tánaiste to the House to discuss questions arising from the proposed closure of the IFI plants. As the Cathaoirleach is aware, coming from an agricultural background, if this proposed closure goes ahead, there will be no fertilizer industry in this country. Hundreds of jobs in Cork and Wicklow will be lost and the Leader should make immediate representations to the Tánaiste on this crucial issue because, following a meeting with the Tánaiste on 12 September, the workers were led to believe that sufficient time would be allowed to bring in a plan to keep the factories open.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has adequately put his point.

Photo of Paul BradfordPaul Bradford (Fine Gael)
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I support Senator O'Toole in asking the Leader to make representations to the Minister for Foreign Affairs or the Taoiseach so that the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation can sit again as soon as possible. I too was a member of the forum when it previously sat. We did not conclude our business; we simply adjourned. At this sensitive time in the broader Northern process, democratic politicians coming together to speak about issues—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator has made his point. There is no need to elaborate on it.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Fine Gael)
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I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, to the House to debate the vexed issue of funding and implementation of the national roads programme. The N5 road to the west passes through my area and it is vital for the future prosperity of the west of Ireland.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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As Fine Gael spokesperson on the environment, I have a question similar to that of Senator Feighan. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, should be invited to the House to address the issue of funding of disabled persons schemes and essential repair schemes. I understand there is no funding in local authorities to implement these schemes. I was told that no further schemes would be sanctioned until the end of the year. This is blatant discrimination and cannot be tolerated.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Senator can make those points in the debate.

Michael Finucane (Fine Gael)
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On a previous occasion I raised the matter of televising sports events. I am aware that, in the last few days, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources listed various events which will be designated in future, but I am disappointed that people will have to watch a crucial match this evening on Sky Sports and will have to pay for that privilege. The Minister started consultations on the list last July, but he could not finalise the issue to include tonight's game. It is interesting that legislation referring to this matter was in both Houses in 1999 and one must ask why the Government delayed designating these events. I worry about what will happen in the future. Will the State be sued for negligence on this issue?

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator Cummins, who raised the issue of radiotherapy facilities in the regions. All constituents in the south east region are very anxious that such facilities should be provided in Waterford Regional Hospital. I support Senator Cummins's request that the Minister for Health and Children discuss this issue in the House.

Senator Finucane took the words out of my mouth when requesting a debate with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources regarding listed sports events. This would be timely given that this evening's game cannot be seen on terrestrial television. I also seek a debate with the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism. On Monday the Irish Tourist Industry Confederation launched a report into the Irish tourism industry and it contains some interesting findings and pointers for the future.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)
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I want the Minister to come to the House to debate the tourism industry.

Sheila Terry (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader invite the Tánaiste to come to the House to address recent job losses, including the jobs lost yesterday? I heard Chris Horn of Iona Technologies say yesterday that we are in danger of losing thousands of jobs to China in the near future. The Tánaiste should outline to us her plans for ensuring that jobs are kept in this country.

I also support Members who asked for a debate with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the level of crime on the streets. Obviously the public is losing faith in the Minister as large numbers of people are not even reporting crime, particularly crimes such as the theft of mobile phones and runners.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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There is no doubt that the Tánaiste is top of the poll for requests to come to the House.

Senator Hayes and Senator O'Toole spoke broadly about the need for general statements and more attendance by Ministers to deal with issues and I agree. We discussed this at our parliamentary party meeting today and we decided that, after this week is over, we would attend to it. The Senators are right that it is not enough to meet for half a day on Wednesday and half a day on Thursday; that is not earning our keep. However, I need not spell out that this is because we were all busy with various matters and it might have been difficult to get various Ministers to attend. Hopefully, once this week is over, we will return to more regular sittings and take on board many of the issues which have been raised.

There is the mechanism of the Adjournment Debate and three matters have been accepted for this evening. We could arrange to have three further matters raised on two other evenings, with a period set aside for definite statements on particular matters of State requiring attention. I appreciate the Senator's statement. We are aware of it on this side of the House and plan to deal with it.

Senator Brian Hayes and Senator McDowell spoke about the sad event at the weekend involving the death of the young man. Murder is always awful, but this was a most poignant event, involving a young man legitimately enjoying himself and on his way home. It seemed so pointless and awful and we all sympathise with his family and friends. I share Senator McDowell's view that if it transpires that those involved in this crime were minors, there should be proper rehabilitative and remedial care for them. It was an awful event and nothing we say can make it any different.

Senator O'Toole raised housing and asked that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government come to the House to deal with this issue before the situation gets out of hand. He also spoke about Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement. I have spoken to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen. He is keen to come to the House to discuss the situation in Northern Ireland and also Iraq. I hope that a date can be arranged as soon as possible.

Senator O'Toole and Senator McDowell also spoke about the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation. They asked if an eye had been taken off the ball because of the concentration on Iraq and the terrible events in Bali.

Senator Ulick Burke asked that the Minister for Education and Science, should address the crisis, as he put it, in the institutes of technology. The Minister was in the House last week, but I will convey the Senator's comments to him. Each college is given its budget and it must work within it and plan for the year accordingly.

Senator Norris spoke about under age drinking. I propose we deal with that issue when the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is invited to the House. He has announced the setting up of a review group on the law of libel.

I have no information about what happened regarding the interview room, but I will convey the Senator's views to the Superintendent of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

On behalf of the House, I bid farewell to Mr. Chris Glennon and offer our best wishes. He is a very fine example of the profession of journalism.

Senator Coghlan asked about CAB. Legislation for CAB will be introduced and it will clearly mark out the difference between the earlier legislation and the proposed legislation. He also spoke about the spatial strategy and the leaks emanating therefrom. For what it is worth, the leaks are correct – I know that because of the previous post I held.

Photo of Paul CoghlanPaul Coghlan (Fine Gael)
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Will the Leader give us a list?

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Nothing can be discussed until the report has been published.

Senator Cummins asked that the Minister for Health and Children come to the House to speak about the current difficulty in Waterford. Senator Henry spoke about certain courses in Trinity College which she said had been truncated.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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I said "cancelled".

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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That is what I said. Truncated is another way of saying it. I do not know if the Minister has responsibility for truncating courses. I imagine it would be the responsibility of the authorities in the college.

Mary Henry (Independent)
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On a point of information, the Minister for Health and Children cancelled them. That is what surprised me.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I would question that but the Senator has said her—

John Dardis (Progressive Democrats)
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It is the first time Trinity College has taken an instruction from a Minister.

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to reply without interruption.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think Trinity would say, "Yes, Minister, we will do exactly as you say". That is not how I knew it, but it may have changed.

Senator McHugh asked about the IDA and the need for inward investment in Donegal to be considered. Senator Bradford raised the issue of IFI and the need for the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to come to the House to discuss it. Senator Feighan asked that national roads be addressed in a debate. I think national roads are the responsibility of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, and I will convey that request to him.

Deputy Bannon asked that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government address the issue of funding for disabled people and that the necessary reconstruction of houses, I presume—

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Fine Gael)
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I am aware that funding has been—

Rory Kiely (Fianna Fail)
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The Leader to reply.

Photo of Mary O'RourkeMary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Finucane expressed his disappointment that the Ireland v. Switzerland match was not included in the announcement by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and asked that he come to the House to explain the ramifications of his announcement. Senator John Paul Phelan spoke about the same issue and about Waterford Regional Hospital and the current difficulties there.

Senator Terry asked that the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment come to the House to address jobs loses. We all agree the situation in IFI is extremely sad, particularly for employees who feel there is nowhere for them to go. However, we are very much aware that 380,000 more people are in employment thanks to all round agreement on various industrial policies. I will, however, convey those requests to the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Order of Business agreed to.