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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Will Mr. Downes please repeat the part about human rights in the country of destination?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: I just do not know how the Departments could ever apply that criteria and approve a single application for a dual-use export to a State that, as I understand it, is actually categorised by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and several other human rights bodies as operating an apartheid regime.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Mr. Downes mentioned that there is an assessment of the state of destination's compliance with international humanitarian law. On the basis that a number of applications to the tune of more than €70 million were approved last year, am I to take it that it was the Department's assertion that Israel is in compliance with international humanitarian law?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: I am sorry for not fully understanding. What do the criteria mean in respect of international humanitarian law? Is there a points system? What does that assessment involve? How then is it transposed in terms of a final decision in respect of an export licence?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Are there states-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: In the accounting software example Mr. Downes has given, are there states that currently would not get an export licence on the basis of the state's compliance with human rights and international humanitarian law as opposed to the actual specific application? Would it just be standard with Mr. Downes' Department not to approve the export licence because of the state in which the licence...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Therefore, if there was an application from a Russian company based in Russia, would the application be approved today?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Okay.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Okay. We will have to try to keep the answers shorter if possible. The figures we have are for 2023. As I mentioned, there were 32 applications. Is Mr. Downes in a position to say what percentage of those were actually granted? He was not in a position to do so before the break.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Okay. My understanding is that all 32 were granted. I just want to get clarification on that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: It is about the 32 dual-use applications under the Control of Exports Act 2023. There were 32 applications, which were all approved. Is Mr. Downes aware of whether there have been any applications so far in 2024 and whether any of them have been refused? It is a yes-no answer.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: I am talking specifically in terms of trade with Israel.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Okay. Is Mr. Downes aware of any instances in 2023 or 2024 in which the Department of Foreign Affairs raised a concern in respect of a licence application?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Mr. Downes said his Department seeks an opinion-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: -----from the Department of Foreign Affairs in respect of such licences. In any instances, has the Department of Foreign Affairs raised a concern or issue with Mr. Downes in respect of it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: I will ask a simple question: how many goods currently available for sale in Ireland are labelled as originating from Israeli settlements?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: Is it fair of me to say we are therefore working on the assumption that in the first instance the Israeli State is adhering to the law, and on the second assumption that those companies already engaged in illegal activities by operating within the illegal settlements are somehow then operating within the law when it comes to EU labelling rules?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: On that point, because I am just conscious that the Chair might cut me off at any stage-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: No, I am talking about Israel and the-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Illegal Israeli Settlements Divestment Bill 2023: Discussion (Resumed) (10 Apr 2024)

Matt Carthy: We are talking about a pre-legislative Bill in respect of Irish funds being invested in companies that profit from illegal settlements. Mr. Downes can take it as a given, unless it is stated otherwise, that we are referring to the trading relationship with Israel.

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