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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Our next topic is the arson attacks. I welcome our first group this afternoon, namely, the Hope and Courage Collective. I am delighted that the two representatives are with us today. I remind witnesses to turn off their mobile phones or switch them to flight mode so they do not interfere with the sound system. Sometimes they interfere with the recording of a meeting. The primary...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Ms McDonald for her opening remarks. As I indicated, we will have a round-robin session whereby each member will have a six-minute slot to engage the witnesses. Deputy Ó Riordáin indicated first, so he will open up the questioning and engagement.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Sorry, the Deputy's time was up a few minutes ago but I let the conversation run. I call Deputy Daly because I know he has to speak in the Chamber on another matter. We will have a second round, and Deputy Ó Ríordáin can come back in.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Deputy Daly is going to the Chamber. He may not be able to rejoin the meeting. I will come back to Deputy Ó Ríordáin in the second round. I have a couple of questions of my own next. I wish to raise a couple of different topics in no particular order. We are here today to deal primarily with the arson attacks. That is the focus of the session, but there are lots of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Mr. Malone mentioned that there have been no attacks apprehended in mid-flight. In other words, they either did not happen or were entirely successful. Is he satisfied that there are reporting channels? If there are, are they adequate? I refer to a situation where a member of the community becomes aware, through online media, having their ear to the ground or whatever that there is a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: That is what I was going to discuss next. A relatively sophisticated operation would be required of the Garda, for example, monitoring social media channels, working with confidential informants and using other intelligence sources. Our Garda witnesses will have an opportunity to respond, but it strikes me that such work is not filtering down to station level. Perhaps that is a gap which...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Absolutely. There was an incident in Cork on 24 February. It was the second anniversary of the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. There was a pro-Ukraine rally and a pro-Palestine rally, but there was also a far-right rally. I am told by people who were present that the Garda did not interfere and, effectively, gave free run to the far-right rally, which included people who had been charged...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: I am conscious of the time, so I will yield to other members. Deputy Pringle is present, and I see Deputy Ward coming in the door. I will take them in that order. I will turn to Deputy Ó Ríordáin on the second round.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: We are running a little ahead of time. I sent the Deputy and a few of the other members a text to let them know. If the Deputy prefers, I can come back to him after taking Deputy Ward.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Yes. I can take Deputy Ó Ríordáin if the two gents want to take a few minutes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Following up on what Deputy Pringle said, I attended at a conference on some of these issues at the weekend. The point was made that there could be an online news website that has text that is considered newsprint, video content that is considered broadcasting and a comment section that is considered an intermediary space. Three different items of legislation would apply to one website...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Returning to what I said at the outset, the organisations are not present and cannot respond. I absolutely hear what is being said but I note they may something different if they were to come in. That does not take from what the witnesses said at all; it is just to put that on record.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Possibly, yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: I am extremely sympathetic to the positions advanced. The only issue is the discussion is a little bit moving into where the media committee and broadcasting committee would be. As much as I would love to invite certain organisations in and have certain debates, we are constrained to the justice arena in this committee. There is obviously knock-on. Some of the speech that is being...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Yes, exactly, so we stay within the lines of the committee.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Ms McDonald. While I will go to Deputy Ó Ríordáin in a second round, before doing that I will come in with something myself. It strikes me that a lot of what we are talking about is misinformation and disinformation that is being propagated, intentionally in many cases. Is there more that the State or the authorities collectively can do with regard to positive...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: I am going to take follow-up comments, if anyone wants to come in again. I will start with Deputy Ó Ríordáin and go on in the same order as the first round.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: Before the next member comes in, Mr. Malone makes a very interesting point about there being a right to freedom of expression but no guaranteed right to freedom of amplification. That is a really interesting point. Another point I will add to that is if my freedom of expression is being impaired by another person asserting a very hostile direct narrative, usually online, then that does not...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: On a procedural matter for the committee to discuss, the fact that GDPR is engaged with respect to that recommender algorithm gives the committee a hook and allows it to become seised of the issue because the GDPR comes under our remit. That is a point we might pick up again when we are offline. That might allow us to further investigate some of these issues.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Arson Attacks: Discussion (5 Mar 2024)

James Lawless: I think that is good enough to finish on and concludes the time. I thank both witnesses and their organisation for being here. I commend the work they do.

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