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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: It is all good.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: We are over time. Dr. Bracken-Roche was finishing anyway. I thank her for the contribution. I thank all our distinguished guests. I will move to the members. All members present are offering. I will call on Senator Ruane first, followed by Deputy Daly and Deputy Pringle. Deputy Alan Farrell and some others may wish to come in at that point.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I see a few hands raised on the screen. I will call on Dr. Bracken-Roche first, Dr. Birhane second and Dr. Lynch third.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Dr. Birhane. Because this is the first question and it has got people talking I will continue with the answers before I move on to the next member.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Dr. Murray.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank the witnesses for their very useful observations. I let this round run a little longer than usual because a number of contributors were making responses for the first time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: One of the witnesses said that this is an opportunity for Ireland to be an exemplar of best practice by putting in place a robust framework for the use of the technology. To play devil's advocate, would I be right in saying that it could have been introduced without legislating at all and that perhaps this could have been rolled out as a technique within law enforcement without any such...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: Was that a ruling of a court or is it an ongoing matter?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: Was that in Canada?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I ask Dr. Birhane to take that question, please.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Dr. Birhane. I invite Dr. Murray to speak next, please.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Dr. Murray and I invite Dr. Lynch to speak now, please.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Ms Sugiyama. Did any other witnesses wish to return on that point before we go back to the floor? No. Our next member offering is Deputy Costello, who is joining us online and he has six minutes for his questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I am sorry Deputy Costello but we are losing-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: My apologies to Deputy Costello but I would ask that he speak into the microphone as when he turns his head away, we are losing the sound. I know the Deputy has a valuable contribution to make so I want him to get the full opportunity to make it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank the Deputy. We might start with the Department because there was a specific question for it. Then we will take any reactions the witnesses want to give on the points raised.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Ms Killian for that response. Some of the other witnesses might like to come in. I see a few hands going up. That is very good. All the witnesses are very welcome to have their say. We will start with Dr. Birhane.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Dr. Birhane. That is a very interesting point about the contractors and unlikelihood that the algorithms would be open source or anything like that. In any event, it is an interesting point. Dr. Lynch is next.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: I thank Dr. Lynch. I think Dr. Murray's hand was up.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: General Scheme of the Garda Síochána (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill: Discussion (13 Feb 2024)

James Lawless: Before I go to Ms Sugiyama, who I think has her hand up, I want to make an observation on the point Dr. Murray made. He mentioned the black box. I think he means the magic computer that has the technology within it. It is a black box in the sense that we cannot access the algorithms within. I am reminded that in this jurisdiction there is a plethora of challenges to the technology used to...

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