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Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will continue our consideration of the education and training board sector. This is session 3, at which we are joined by the Tipperary Education and Training Board for its 2015 financial statements and by Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board for its 2014 financial statements. From Tipperary Education and Training Board, I welcome Mr. John Hogan, chairman; Ms Fionuala...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: I call on Ms Fionuala McGeever to make her opening statement on behalf of Tipperary ETB, who will be followed by Mr. Seán Ashe, on behalf of Kildare and Wicklow ETB.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: Deputies have indicated in the following sequence: Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, Deputy David Cullinane, Deputy Alan Kelly, Deputy Catherine Connolly, Deputy Catherine Murphy and Deputy Bobby Aylward. We will start with a 15-minute slot but we will have ten-minute slots after that as quite a few members have indicated.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: Can we get the document up on the screen so that everybody can see it?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: What number is it?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will try to get it up on the screen.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: May I just cut in?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: I do not want to take up the Deputy's time, but I have a question on a matter that has been raised. Will Mr. Ó Foghlú tell us whether Mr. Thorn is independent? Is he appointed by the Department to conduct an independent investigation?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: If he is an independent investigator, why would he advise someone he is investigating about whom he or she should speak to? What is the Department's view on an independent investigator telling people what they should or should not say if asked a question? I am asking about Dr. Thorn. The committee received a letter from Mr. Ó Foghlú today. It states:Given that the investigation...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: Who initiated the conversation?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: Did he indicate that he was going to communicate with anyone else? There is an independent investigation. I would have thought he would be getting on with his job rather than tic-tacking with Mr. Loftus or anyone else.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: If Deputy McDonald will allow, I will pursue this matter. The investigation is well under way. Dr. Thorn spoke to Mr. Ashe as well. Was it by means of a letter or a phone call?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: Given the seriousness everybody has attached to the statutory investigation that is under way, it can be seen why I am already concerned if there are phone calls here and there from the investigator, tic-tacking, phone calls going unrecorded and communications with people under investigation and with individuals in the Department. There is nothing in writing. There is no record. We will...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will finish the question. We are here every week. The Charleton inquiry is ongoing and there is an investigation into the Grace case, which is another issue that has come before the committee. If we heard that Mr. Justice Charleton was making phone calls to potential witnesses and people who could potentially be investigated, that there was no record of such calls and that he was telling...

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: Did Dr. Thorn phone the Comptroller and Auditor General in this regard?

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay. We will return to Deputy McDonald. I hope the Deputy understands my intervention.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: The Deputy is posing a question. She is not making a conclusion.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: The Deputy is posing a question.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: Deputy, to be fair Mr. Ashe's relation is not here now.

Public Accounts Committee: Tipperary Education and Training Board and Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board: Financial Statements (16 Nov 2017)

Seán Fleming: The witness will have retired by then.

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