Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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118. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence further to recent Dáil debates, her views on past health and safety measures in the Air Corps; the actions she intends to take to support former aircraft maintenance and ancillary personnel; whether she intends to ensure that their medical needs are met; and the other supports that can be offered to the category affected as a whole. [54263/26]

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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In the context of the previous question, I submitted another question that was ruled out of order, which is fair enough. I probably did not word my question as precisely as Deputy Gibney worded hers. I record my concern about legal representation in that regard. It is important to say that.

This question relates to another welfare issue. I will keep raising this issue. There is scope for the Department to take action here. It can look after the people affected without in any way conflicting with legal cases. I do not want to hear about legal cases. I know the Minister is going to talk about them anyway. Ultimately, the Department can make health and redress interventions without in any way undermining those court cases. Airport personnel were put at risk by chemicals.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the matter. I know he is committed to this issue; I am too. I have in recent months spent some time travelling to different barracks and Army bases and meeting with personnel. What I see all over the country is their professionalism, dedication and commitment. I am proud of that, and I know they are take great pride in the work they do. The health, safety and well-being of our Defence Forces personnel is front and centre in everything that I and the Department do. When we talk about capital investment and investing in equipment, infrastructure and accommodation, and additional finance to improve pay, terms and conditions, it is all with the ambition of ensuring that the health and well-being of our Defence Forces personnel are front and centre.

As the Deputy said, there are ongoing litigation challenges. I will not get into specific detail. It is only a short time since we last had defence questions, so while I do not have a huge number of updates for him, I can say, as I did on the previous occasion, that the courts took a number of cases under active case management. I am advised that the State Claims Agency remains open to engagement. It is important that is known in order that we can try to resolve this issue. More recently, what has happened is that agreements have been reached between a number of parties to engage in formal mediation discussions. It is important that we allow mediation to continue and ensure that nothing we say here will impact that.

A number of individuals have opted to bring their cases through the personal injuries process. It is important that we respect their decision to so and make every effort not to impede the process. In the other instances I have outlined, efforts are under way to see if mutual agreement can be reached.

Approximately 23 cases have come to the fore. We have different processes and ways in which we can engage with each of those individuals. What I want to do is to ensure that it is as straightforward a process as possible. I appreciate that has not been the case for many people. I appreciate that this has been going on for much longer than anybody would like. The measures to which I refer, the State Claims Agency and the mediation process are there. I encourage people to continue to engage with that process.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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These types of issues of collective harm, collective abuse in some instances and collective injury are things that the State does badly. We can see it. The Minister previously served as Minister for education. We have seen many examples in that area. The response of the State is always to tell people that they can go through the courts. If people do not go to the courts, there is an issue with that. We set up redress schemes and if people do not make a claim within a certain timeframe, they are excluded. We have the recent example of the women who attended Dunderrow National School. Women who were in the same class as Louise O'Keeffe were prevented from bringing forward redress. The point is that when enough pressure comes on, the State eventually remembers - and it knows, in truth - that it does not have to do everything through the courts. If a category of people have had wrong done to them, the State has other measures available without even accepting legal liability. The Minister knows that. There is nothing to prevent the Minister from looking after the health needs of these men and women. She knows that perfectly well.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I disagree that people are being pushed into the courts. The situation is exactly the opposite. I have said in the Chamber many times since I started taking these questions that the State Claims Agency is there and wants to mediate and work directly with people in order that cases do not go directly to the courts. Steps and procedures have been put in place over years so that people can seek mediation and can go through a process that is not adversarial and does not require them to go to the courts or to take on legal representation. This can be worked through.

The number of cases increased before the most recent mediation outcome. There were 11 or 12 cases and there are now 23. There is a process for all of the people affected. Each case is different. That is what may be different to other places that the Deputy has referenced. Each case is different. There has already been an acknowledgement that at the time, personal protective equipment, PPE, needed to be better. That is why I say now that the investment we are putting into our Defence Forces is not just to provide the best capabilities and types of technology but also means that we are putting in place equipment that is safe and protects our personnel. We have a clear process here and I encourage everybody involved to go through the process. They will be supported. The agency is there to work with them.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister said that she is not pushing anybody to the courts. I am not a doctor and cannot make a clinical decision, but if people suffered negative health outcomes that they believe have a connection to their clinical exposure, and they have never taken a case, how precisely is the Government going to help them? They are not going to be able to engage with the State Claims Agency unless they have made claims and gone to the courts. They are not going to be able to engage with the State Claims Agency unless they have made a claim and gone to the courts. None of this is necessary. We know what happens in Australia and the Netherlands, and in other areas of this State. Of course, every case and category is different, but the same principle applies. The State can assist people with their medical requirements and can provide ex gratia payments. It can provide a number of different things without accepting legal liability. The Minister knows that because her previous Department, the Department of education, has done it numerous times. The Department of children has done it numerous times - usually under political pressure, but it has done it. There is nothing to stop the Minister doing it. This is not going away. How is the Minister going to address the needs of those people who were exposed to these chemicals - and this is the key detail - who have not taken cases or made a claim against the State? How is the Minister going to help those people?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Referring to other countries is not helpful in this instance because the situations are not comparable. We have 23 individuals who have brought forward cases, and I fully respect their right to do so. I would prefer it if, through that process, there was mediation in order that the issue could be resolved as quickly as possible. That has been the case for one of the people in question whose case was resolved satisfactorily. If people have issues and concerns, it is important that they come forward and raise their cases. Beyond that, we have a process that people can use. We have a mechanism with which people are already engaging. I ask them and encourage them to continue to engage through that process.

I do not think we can equate this situation with what is happening in the Department of education. What the Minister for education is doing is to ensure that we establish how issues were responded to in our schools at the time. That is exactly what is happening with the tribunal here. The tribunal, which we discussed and which was brought forward through the Women of Honour, will also look at this issue, how it was responded to and how it was dealt with. There is a mechanism there that is similar to what we are doing in education.