Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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117. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if her Department is satisfied with the level of support being provided by the Department to witnesses from the Women of Honour participating in the Defence Forces tribunal, with particular regard to one-to-one support provided before, during and after testifying; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [54533/26]

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I look forward to coming back to the topic of the triple lock in a few questions' time.

I have read with extreme concern the reports over the past week on the lack of support provided by the Department of Defence to Women of Honour, whose members are participating in the Defence Forces tribunal. I absolutely understand that it is important to guarantee the independence of the tribunal and I also understand that limited supports are in place, but it is vital that we listen when victims of abuse within our Defence Forces tell us that what is in place is inadequate, especially when, in testifying, they are reliving some of the most difficult moments of their lives. Will the Department commit to providing additional, one-to-one, customised support for those testifying in the tribunal?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I have met a number of the women from the Women of Honour. I have met them in my Department and in different manners or at different meetings. I have nothing but respect and admiration for each and every one of them. I fully appreciate and have no doubt that what they are going through now is retraumatising for many of them. I have no doubt that their having to tell their stories and experiences time and again is very traumatic and difficult for them. That is why, when I met them earlier this year, I did so with the ambition of assisting and providing them with whatever support I could before the tribunal started. The Deputy is right that the tribunal is independent. It is important that we allow the process to take its course. My intention in meeting the women and listening to their concerns was to put in place whatever supports we could. I thank the women because some of what was said to me at the meeting was very difficult for anybody to have to relay again.

We discussed the need to provide counselling supports. Different mechanisms were being put in place but we were asked whether we could do more than that. Following the meeting, I engaged immediately with my colleague Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, the Minister for Health, and asked her whether she could put in place a structure, similar to what we have had under other types of tribunals or inquiries, that would provide a counselling service to members of the group who have been or will be attending the tribunal. This is separate from some of the things that have been put in place.

The HSE has said that the service is now set up if there is anybody who wants to engage, and that it is willing to provide this support. This has been relayed. An engagement mechanism and supports are ready. A specific package of counselling measures has been set up for the tribunal once the information that has been requested from the group is received. If there are individuals who feel they are not getting the support they need, there is a mechanism in place. Once we know who they are, we can identify what support is required. I appreciate that they will not necessarily tell me who they want to work with, or who they are engaging with or supporting, but we do have to get that information to be able to pass it on.

There are a number of other supports available to serving and former members of the Defence Forces, and I can touch on them in the next answer.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that the Minister has taken the time to listen to victims and survivors, and I appreciate her respect and admiration. I share her respect and admiration for the very difficult thing these women are doing. I completely understand that the tribunal is beyond the scope of the Minister's remit and this House. However, psychological and pastoral support for those giving testimony has been provided by the Department to a limited degree and it should continue to provide it.

When survivors of abuse are saying the support is not adequate, it is vital that they are listened to and appropriate action is taken. When the supports are not in place, we limit participation in what is an incredibly important process. It is appalling to me that, instead of any active referral or support, many have described receiving a list of numbers and emails for various charities, one of which does not even provide clinical mental health services. That is absolutely unacceptable.

I commend the courage of Women of Honour. I commend the courage of those who are testifying. We know that, for survivors of abuse, recounting what has happened to them can be extremely retraumatising. We need to be able to support survivors throughout that.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. I fully agree.

What I want is to make sure that people are proactively engaged with and supported and that they are not handed a list requiring them to go off and try to find support themselves. That is exactly why I met with the Minister for Health and asked that there be something specific and tailored to the tribunal. I have already asked my officials to re-engage to make sure that, if there is information needed by the HSE so that what I have described can happen, and if it is not happening, it should be provided immediately.

Like the Deputy, while I am aware that the tribunal is independent, I am very much conscious of what we are seeing in the media every day. We are hearing the testimonies and seeing people having to relive some of the most traumatic times of their lives. I am very conscious of this, so I have asked my Department to reach out and make sure that if there is a gap where information has not been provided or cannot be, it addresses it.

There are other supports. There is Lena support by Inspire, which is a 24-hour external confidential helpline and counselling service. This is a matter of referral or appointment. There is both telephone and face-to-face counselling, so there are a number of different options. Separately, there is the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel, which is funded through the HSE and includes counselling and a 24-7 service.

If there is a gap here, my intention is to address it.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I am glad to hear that intention. I request that the Minister keep my office up to date on how her office is dealing with this. I am aware that some of these supports are in place, but, as was reported a few days ago, several people who have gone through this have said that, while giving evidence, the only assistance offered to them if they became distressed was the opportunity to pause proceedings and have a glass of water.

While an employee assistance programme like Inspire, which the Minister referred to, is good to have, it is not an adequate support for someone who is testifying on their abuse. The answer to someone testifying about their abuse for hours and needing support should not be to ring a number and have to retell their entire story. If help is not being made readily available, if it is not easy to access, and if survivors are saying it does not meet their needs, action must be taken.

Those participating in the Defence Forces tribunal are doing so in the interests of justice and truth and to ensure that this level of abuse never happens again. We all benefit from the maximum possible participation. I am concerned, on foot of these reports from participants, that we are allowing a situation where people feel they must stay silent to protect their own mental health. We need to do everything we can to avoid that.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I fully agree. For any tribunal or inquiry, particularly where we are talking about such sensitive information and such traumatic experiences, people must be trauma informed. That must absolutely be the case. We have been assured that those who are involved and who are engaged with the tribunal have been trauma informed and trauma trained. The type of training that has been provided was outlined at the public hearing on 16 June. I am committing to ensure that if there are gaps or issues, we will make sure that where the HSE support service that has been set up through the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, following our engagement, is not getting to people and they feel they only have the lines that were made available at the beginning, we will try to rectify that. It is my intention to ensure that people know where the supports are and can access them. Unfortunately, the tribunal is independent in the context of what happens before it.

Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I acknowledge that.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It is a matter for the judge to progress, but I am assured that people are trauma informed. I will take the Deputy's point and go back to my Department on it specifically to ensure that absolutely everybody has received that training.