Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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116. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence to outline her proposals to remove the triple lock neutrality protection; when she intends to bring forward a Bill; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [54261/26]

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The triple lock neutrality protection is deeply valued by the Irish people. It was the basis on which the Irish people were encouraged to vote for European referendums, on the basis that the Irish people value their neutrality and an independent foreign policy. The Government proposes to get rid of the triple lock. It is not reform; it is not change - it is getting rid of the triple lock. Ultimately, a Government that commands a majority will be in a position to deploy troops to any international force as it sees fit. There is growing concern about that, including in these Houses. I ask the Minister for an update on the legislation.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that we have had these discussions on a number of occasions. I look forward to debating this as the legislation comes through the Houses. It is important that we have these discussions, and that we have a debate as to what exactly is in the Bill, what is not in the Bill and what the intention of it is. I appreciate that there are very strongly held views on this matter, so I appreciate this opportunity to discuss it prior to the Bill moving forward.

I want to be clear on what the Bill does not intend to do. It is not to remove Ireland's military neutrality. As a Government, we are very clear that the purpose is to adjust and amend the Defence Act so we can continue to either dispatch our Defence Forces personnel for service outside of the State, or make sure they stay part of the peacekeeping missions they are currently part of. We know that is being impacted at the moment because of the triple lock. This is not to remove our military neutrality or to align us with any other military force. This is to make sure that we can continue to deploy our service personnel, our men and women of Óglaigh na hÉireann, overseas for peacekeeping missions.

Government approval for the text of the Defence (Amendment) Bill was received on 9 June. The Bill was published on the Oireachtas website and will be progressed through the Houses of the Oireachtas as quickly as possible. Obviously, we are on the last sitting day, but my intention is that we would bring it to the House as early as possible in the new term. While the precise timeline will depend on the schedule, my intention remains to see the legislation enacted and commenced at the earliest opportunity. We had said initially it would be by the end of this year, but I intend and hope to move it as quickly as possible.

The principal reform proposed in the Bill is the removal of the requirement for a United Nations Security Council mandate as part of the existing triple lock mechanism. The two other elements are a Government decision and the approval of Dáil Éireann, so it is not just for any Government and would require the approval of Dáil Éireann. That will remain in place. It is the Government's view, and very much my view as well, as I have outlined previously and am again happy to do so today, that the current arrangements allow the permanent members of the UN Security Council - the UK, Russia, China, the US and France - to effectively veto any new mission or potentially close down a mission, as has been the case. I do not believe that any other country should have the ability to constrain Ireland's sovereign decision-making through the use of a veto or the threat of a veto.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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No other country had a vote on the Defence Acts in the 1960s. No other country had a vote on the Defence Acts in 2006. No other country will have a vote on this Defence (Amendment) Bill. It will be decided here. These are the tests that we set sovereignly in this Parliament. That is all about it. All of this craic is neither here nor there. These are our decisions about where we see fit to deploy Irish personnel. That is ultimately what this is about.

All the objects that the Government talks about achieving, such as that the world is changing or we need to invest in our defence, are not prevented by the triple lock. We should invest in our defence. We should be strong on neutrality and strong on defence. I absolutely agree with that. The Minister talks about the need to ensure that Defence Forces personnel have the ability to deploy internationally and are not prevented from participating in rescue missions. I have no problem at all with head No. 7. Actually, most of the legislation is fine. It is just head No. 8 that is a fundamental problem and a fundamental change. That is recognised by the Minister’s coalition partners, or at least all apart from two or three at the top of that political party. They are very concerned because they know this will potentially constrain our ability to have an independent foreign policy as it undermines our neutrality. Perhaps the Minister might conclude that it does not end it in the final assessment, but it does undermine it potentially.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I would ask the Deputy a number of questions. First, does he trust Óglaigh na hÉireann? Does he trust our Defence Forces? If he does, then he trusts them to make the decision.

The triple lock, as amended, will ensure-----

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not their decision; it is our decision.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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No. The Deputy should listen to me. If he trusts the Defence Forces-----

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do trust them.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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-----to make a recommendation, because that will still be included in this, they will make a recommendation to the Government and will assess the type of mission we are talking about in the way they currently do. Does the Deputy trust the people of this country to elect the people they want to be elected?

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Does he trust them to make that decision? That is how we democratically form a Government here.

The triple lock, as amended, would ensure that we have recommendations from Óglaigh na hÉireann, which knows what it is doing and has for decades deployed its troops on peacekeeping missions. These are troops that we respect. We know they are highly trained and well respected across the world. They will continue to make those recommendations under the amended legislation. It would then be put to this House for us to decide, as democratically elected people who form Governments in a democratic way, unlike in certain other countries, including Russia, that currently have a say in how we deploy our troops. We would then make the decision and there would be oversight.

There is nothing here to suggest that we are going to start sending troops off to war. It would be under the exact same status as the current peacekeeping missions. Deployment would have to be recommended by our Defence Forces. It would have to be approved by people who are democratically elected in this country, not the likes of Russia or China or anybody who should not have a say in how we deploy our troops.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister said it would be on the same basis as it is currently, when that is plainly not the case. She is getting rid of the requirement for a UN mandate.

I will tell the Minister who I do not trust. I do not trust the likes of NATO-aligned organisations such as Partnership for Peace. Frankly, given the trajectory of their political positioning on the Middle East, there are many people at the top of the EU that I do not trust in terms of their foreign policy objectives, given the cover they gave to Israel in recent years in the context of the genocide. I do trust the Defence Forces and I do trust the people of this country.

I ask the Minister whether she trusts the people of this country to make the decision. If she does, why does she not put the matter to a referendum, given that this was the basis on which many people were asked to vote in the Nice and Lisbon referendums? This matter was central to those referendums.

The Minister knows quite clearly-----

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The triple lock is not in our Constitution.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----that the decisions in the Lisbon and Nice referendums were based on things such as the Seville Declaration. I expect that many people changed their minds because they were given reassurances. Those reassurances are now disappearing into dust because of the policy of the Government.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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This is why we need this debate. To be quite frank, we are talking about amending legislation. The triple lock is not in our Constitution. Our treaties are in the Constitution. The triple lock was never part of our Constitution. We were a militarily neutral country before we voted for the treaties and before we introduced the triple lock. We will continue to be a neutral country. The attempt to suggest that we need to have a referendum to change our Constitution for something that is not in our Constitution is trying to thwart what the actual debate is here.

We are very clear, and if one looks at the legislation-----

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It does not have to be in the Constitution to have a referendum.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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On what? A referendum is to amend the Constitution.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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This is not in the Constitution.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is a constitutional referendum.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy Ó Laoghaire.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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There are other kinds of referendums. Of course there are.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should continue.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The world has changed. I trust-----

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Let us invest in our Defence Forces and ensure we deploy on UN missions.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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This is the debate we will have. The Deputy can shout things-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We must move on to the next question.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I do have time and must say that the world has changed. The people I speak to recognise that the world has changed.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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So do we.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The people I speak to do not like the fact that Russia has essentially removed, or will remove in the coming months, all our peacekeeping troops from UNIFIL, where we have been for decades. That is because of the triple lock. That is what we are trying to amend and adjust, not anything else, contrary to what is being suggested here.