Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In a break from tradition but as we are doing the welcomes - we have a lot of people in the Public Gallery - I wish to especially welcome Siobhán and Martin Lynch whom some have mentioned already. They are the parents of Grace Lynch who was killed in a tragic accident in January. They are in the Gallery today. They will be making an appearance at a meeting of the justice committee. You are most welcome today.

I call Deputy Cairns.

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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I also welcome Grace's parents, who are in the Public Gallery, and Michel Barnier, the ambassadors and others who are in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery.

On behalf of the Social Democrats, I extend our sincere best wishes to the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, and his family. Everyone in this House wishes him a full and speedy recovery.

A Deputy:

Hear, hear.

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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The decision by An Coimisiún Pleanála to grant planning permission for apartments at Bessborough is disgusting. This represents yet another failure, a betrayal by the State of the thousands of women and children who were incarcerated and abused there and of the 859 children and 19 women who remain unaccounted for and are presumed dead. I read An Coimisiún Pleanála's decision in detail and I cannot get over it. It states, "from the information available, there is no evidence that there are unrecorded burials" on the development site. Yet, the report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes said it was highly likely that burials took place on the grounds. What happened after that conclusion was reached? Was there a comprehensive survey of the grounds? Was ground-penetrating radar used? Were test excavations conducted? No. Instead, planning permission was granted to build apartments over the unmarked graves of disappeared children.

Unlike those done in Tuam and at Sean Ross Abbey, the so-called archeological assessment carried out by the commission has never been published. It remains sealed, along with the entire archive of documents relating to Bessborough. No one can access those documents, not even An Coimisiún Pleanála. The fact the latter can grant planning permission and simultaneously conclude that the history of burials on the grounds is incomplete is just appalling. The trauma this has caused survivors is immeasurable. One survivor Terry Meyer told the Irish Examiner it was like "a stab in my heart and soul" because it showed "the inhumanity, and the callousness".

Two weeks ago when I asked the Taoiseach to purchase the site using a compulsory purchase order, CPO, he told me he was waiting for the outcome of the appeal before deciding how to respond. He has it now, so what is he going to do? Will he unseal all records about burials from the archive of the mother and baby homes commission?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, I-----

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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Will he ask the Attorney General to order an inquest into the deaths of children and women in Bessborough, as he has the power to do under section 4 of the Coroner's Act 1962? Critically, will the Government CPO the land?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's presentation as to archives being sealed is somewhat disingenuous and totally inaccurate. My understanding is that the action the State took - well I know, because it was dealt with by means of legislation introduced by the previous Government - was to protect those archives. If we had not introduced that legislation, they would not be extant now. They would have been destroyed by the commission. We need honesty in this debate, and we need to stop name-calling everyone and saying people are doing this and sealing that. We are not. The actions of the previous Government in respect of this issue were comprehensive. For the first time, we overcame certain constitutional issues in order to ensure that everyone who was adopted had access to their full birth records. That was always the most consistent demand made by people. That is what happened then.

During the term of office of the previous Government, there was a huge campaign to try to block the legislation. If that legislation had not been passed by he Houses, the archives would have been destroyed. It was a dishonest and outrageous campaign that was organised by people who should have known better. Thanks be to God the then Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, brought the legislation through because it has protected the archives. As the Deputy will be aware, we will have a national archive centre for all material relating to all industrial schools, mother and baby homes and other institutions, for its preservation, conservation and, ultimately, to allow people who wish to do so to access it.

In respect of Bessborough, it must be stated that An Coimisiún Pleanála is independent. I hope the Deputy accepts that. It is independent of the Government and the Oireachtas. People may describe its actions as disgusting and so on, but it is independent in its planning functions.

If we ever reached a day when politicians felt they could intervene in various issues on an ongoing basis, that would become problematic for society over time.

In respect of the Bessborough site and the decision, there is no evidence yet that there were any burials on the specific site on which an application has been made to build housing. The Bessborough site was originally 200 acres. It is now 60 acres. An element of the land was bought. I am on record as saying that I would have preferred for the State to have bought that land back in 2018 or 2019 via the local authority. That did not happen. It is my understanding that it was bought in different lots. There have been State buildings, buildings that provide services to the State, on the Bessborough site for quite a long time. There has been lots of activity on that site for a long time, since long before the commission of inquiry.

The commission of inquiry examined the Bessborough site extensively. This included cartographic and archival research, site surveys and public appeals for information. I apologise. I do not have time to go through this. I will come back in on it.

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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I take it from the Taoiseach's reply and his talk about respecting An Bord Pleanála's decision that the answer is that the Government will not be issuing a CPO for the land. The Taoiseach may correct me if I am wrong because I hope the Government is going to make moves to compulsorily purchase the land. However, I believe this will go down as the most callous decision by this Government. A commission of investigation said that it is highly likely that children whose deaths went uninvestigated are buried in these grounds but the Taoiseach is saying to go ahead and build apartments on the site. He underestimates the strength of feeling on this issue. Crucially, he underestimates the strength of survivors. This is fundamentally wrong. Not only do the survivors know it but the general public do as well. I do not believe this build will go ahead. I know people will chain themselves to the gates before diggers can roll in there to build and to concrete over land where potentially hundreds of children are buried.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy and call on the Taoiseach to respond.

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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Will the Taoiseach clarify whether the Government is going to compulsorily purchase the land? He can call it what he wants. The Taoiseach says the records are not sealed but the archives are closed. Even An Bord Pleanála could not access them. Will the Taoiseach open them?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has now said that a decision of An Bord Pleanála is the most callous decision of this Government.

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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I said that the Government's decision not to compulsorily purchase-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry; I did not interrupt you.

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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With respect, you are misrepresenting what I said.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt the Deputy. She does not have a monopoly on empathy or anger on this issue.

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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No one cares about what you think about a monopoly on caring.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not heckle you.

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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This is about people who are buried in the ground.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Hang on a second----

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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Save us the spiel about how much you care.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Am I not allowed to speak?

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Why is her microphone on?

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are you going to shout me down all of the time? Do you not believe in freedom of expression for everyone in the House?

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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Answer the question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is wrong for the Deputy to misrepresent me and to misrepresent the Government's position on this. We were not involved in An Bord Pleanála's decision.

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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There was a-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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By the way, while I have not had the opportunity to go through this, the Deputy knows that because of the planning protections in the laws we have passed, if any human remains are found there, work has to stop immediately. There has to be a forensic archaeological strategy involved. That is mandatory. A forensic archaeologist must be present throughout the entirety of the excavation works. All works must cease immediately if human remains are discovered.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Having said that, in terms of your basic question on a compulsory purchase-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Taoiseach, the time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I was heckled again.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am afraid you were-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not being given the opportunity-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----not afforded the opportunity.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There has been a lot of misrepresentation. The Ceann Comhairle allowed the Deputy to speak.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The problem is that the Deputy-----

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Cairns took 30 seconds.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Chief Whip but I am in the Chair. I call on Deputy Ivana Bacik.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need a bit of balance here.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Let this be a lesson to other Members to listen to the answer.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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This is so unfair.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is not unfair. Time is time.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It is completely unfair.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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Last Thursday's decision granting permission for development to proceed on the site of the former Bessborough mother and baby home is indeed deeply disappointing. It has caused immense distress and concern to survivors and many other people across the country. I have been listening carefully to what the Taoiseach has said but it is extremely distressing for everyone to hear the conditionality attached to the permission that works must stop if human remains are found on the grounds. That alone should be a cause of immense concern to anyone who has read anything of the history of Bessborough. Ten days ago, I visited the site myself. It is in the Taoiseach's own constituency and I know he has been there himself. I was there with survivor advocate Carmel Cantwell, Labour Senator Laura Harmon and our councillors, Ciara O'Connor and Peter Horgan. We saw at first hand the very poignant memorial bearing the names of just some of those women and children who lived and died at Bessborough.

Survivors in the local community had to assemble this memorial themselves because there is so little to mark the suffering of the thousands of mothers and babies who passed through that institution over many decades. Of the 923 babies died there, just 64 are accounted for. Over 800 babies are missing.

Standing at the site, the weight of suffering is palpable. We owe those who suffered there - the mothers, the babies and their descendants and families - a proper memorial and a duty of preservation. Bessborough should be a site of conscience. There is huge cross-party agreement on that. Last Thursday’s decision has understandably caused this outpouring of distress. The decision was made without access to relevant records. That has already been debated that to and fro, but I think we can all agree that it was made without access to all relevant records and without the benefit of modern technology being used to survey the grounds extensively.

Often when we talk about institutional abuse, it is in circumstances where the Government is trying to make amends for terrible wrongs that have already happened in the past. I am thinking of the Bill Kenneally case, which we are going to be discussing this afternoon. This time, we have an opportunity to prevent a wrong from happening because there are babies unaccounted for and living survivors, like Terry Meyer in today's edition of theIrish Examiner, telling us that they witnessed burials on the grounds of Bessborough. This is a live issue, and we still have time to do the right thing. Imagine if we had concreted over the site at Tuam before Catherine Corless had carried out her incredible work there. Imagine what would have been lost. We cannot allow that to happen at Bessborough.

Two weeks ago, the Taoiseach conceded in this House that Cork City Council should have compulsorily purchased the site years ago. Let us approach this debate with honesty. The Taoiseach said that. I agree with him. However, Cork City Council did not acquire the site under CPO, so what now? If the Taoiseach genuinely believes, and I think he does, that the site should have been acquired, then there is a moral imperative on the Government to act now. The State should secure Bessborough through compulsory purchase, if necessary, or by negotiating with the developer. It is not too late to do this. No building work has started yet. Bessborough must be brought into State ownership, properly investigated, preserved as a site of conscience-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Taoiseach will respond now.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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-----and made home to a fitting memorial for survivors.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy. The Taoiseach, please.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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How can we work with the Taoiseach to facilitate that?

Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Deputy's time is up. The Taoiseach to respond.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the constructive manner in which the Deputy has raised the questions, particularly in the context of her question as to how she can work with us. I appreciate that response. She has not attempted to name-call anybody or misrepresent people. I appreciate that.

What I was endeavouring to say is that the commission did examine the site extensively, including in the context of cartographic and archival research and site surveys. It concluded that while it is likely that some children are buried on the grounds, that is, somewhere within the 60 acres, it found no physical or documentary evidence locating burial sites. When I spoke to survivors early on - not this year but, certainly, two to three years ago - there were differing perspectives in terms of how we deal with the 60 acres and with the site itself. It is not just on this specific one that An Coimisiún Pleanála has made an adjudication.

One of the difficulties is, I am advised, that excavation without evidence of location is neither feasible nor lawful. That is a problem. Under the Institutional Burials Act 2022, the Government can only appoint a director of authorised intervention where it is satisfied that burials have taken place and there is evidence that those burials are manifestly inappropriate. In the case of Bessborough, I am advised that the legal threshold cannot currently be met because the location of many burials remains unknown. However, there are significant and meaningful planning protections in respect of the specific application at Bessborough, namely: a forensic archaeological monitoring strategy is mandatory; a forensic archaeologist must be present throughout excavation works; and, as the Deputy said, all works must cease immediately if human remains are discovered. That is obviously designed to ensure dignity, protection and accountability.

CPOs just do not happen automatically even if people apply for them. There are huge legal thresholds to be overcome in respect of a CPO of a site like this, particularly given that the council has designated it as appropriate for housing in its city development plan and, in the context of its executive functions, gave planning permission to the development of housing there. That has now been endorsed by An Bord Pleanála. Therefore, a CPO is not a straightforward, simplistic thing the Government can do by just pressing a button. That also needs to be acknowledged.

This matter does need reflection and examination. I fully accept the disquiet that is out there.

We have done everything we possibly can over the last number of years in fulfilling the action plan that was outlined by the last Government in all of the areas that were covered at that time, in relation, as I said, to access to records, in terms of a redress scheme and much more than just that. We passed the Institutional Burials Act, which is now operational in Tuam and yielding an outcome there. Up to now, to be blunt about it, there was no real push or pressure to excavate the entire 60 acres at Bessborough.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I have listened carefully to the Taoiseach's response and I thank him for his considered engagement. I welcome his saying that there should be a period of reflection and examination. It is not too late to look at other options beyond the CPO option. It is possible now for the Government to engage with the developer, and I ask that it would consider doing that. It would have the support of the public. Nearly 10,000 people have signed the petition calling for a CPO. However, it does not have to be by CPO that the site comes into State ownership so that it can become and be preserved as a site of conscience.

Last night, Cork City Council unanimously agreed that the site should be acquired by CPO. There is huge support for this. I walked to the site with Carmel Cantwell. I know the issues and the scale of the site. However, we overcame those issues at Tuam through working together constructively. Where there is a will, there is a way on this. With the right political will, the objections can be overcome and the difficulties can be overcome. We can use modern methods of technology to geomap sites to look at identifying potential burial grounds. I think the Taoiseach will agree with me it is deeply chilling to read that the conditions include that the construction will stop if human remains are found. That is not acceptable on a site like this.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We can say it is deeply chilling, but it is with a view to protecting human remains. That is important as well. I think that is something that should be in the planning condition.

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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We can pre-empt that.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If it was not in the planning condition, the developer could do what the developer might want to do if it came upon human remains. That is one of the issues here. We are dealing with a 60-acre site here. I know the site very well. I have known it all my life. Buildings have been put on that site over the years. There are services on that site, funded by the State, in new buildings and so on. I mean social services and so forth. Certainly, I will engage with the Deputy and I will take on board some of the suggestions that she made in her contribution, but we also have to examine the possibility that there are no burials in that site at all. What if there is none?

Ivana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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So why-----

Holly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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Establish that. Jesus.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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It is my firm belief now that we are lax on crime and lax on the causes of crime. A year ago this month before the recess, I raised the issue of my constituents being attacked willy-nilly by under-18s with no apparent consequences. I am talking about lads going around on scooters, intimidating people, bottles being thrown, stones being thrown, young lads and girls being beaten up. I raised it again in my Private Members' business in September. Although we had a good debate and the Government did not oppose the motion, we have not seen any meaningful actions or consequences. It is happening again. I have had reports again of teenagers and young children getting beaten up and left bloodied by random attacks from teenagers.

Obviously, we have to take a two-pronged approach. We do not want to criminalise young adults and bring them into that system. Where the juvenile liaison has been funded, it has been shown to work. However, there are no short, sharp, shock consequences to deter people from doing it. As I mentioned last year, people could have 13 or 14 offences before they are eventually caught up with. The interaction of the parents is not being looked at. Even with quad bikes and scooters, confiscation is the number one option at the moment and then the threat perhaps of a juvenile liaison officer, JLO, caution and maybe Tusla being involved with the family. That does not scare any parents who might have bought these items for their kids. We need to remember that it is parents buying the scooters and quad bikes, not the kids going out and getting them.

I am talking about the wider issue of kids who do not have adequate parental oversight and who are going out and attacking people. There is no law of reasonable defence in this country. A person who is retreating might be able to stop someone, but what if someone is throwing stones at them?

A couple of constituents have reported to me of where three or four people have thrown stones at them, including at a mother with a buggy and a man with her. What is that man supposed to do in that case? If it is two women, how are they supposed to defend themselves in a situation like that? They cannot stop the people throwing stones because it has to be a criminal offence worthy of five years' imprisonment before you can get away with that defence argument. We need more tools to help people defend themselves when they are being attacked.

Equally, going back to what I said last year, we need meaningful consequences. If you do X, Y and Z, it is dealt with locally and there are consequences for the children in terms of curfews and withdrawal of certain privileges and for the parents in terms of fines. That is what we need because, right now, the system is not working; it remains as broken as it was last year.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. The Government is not lax on crime and has allocated significant additional resources this year and last year, and will continue to do so.

Fundamentally, we are recruiting more gardaí which is important. In 2026, we funded the recruitment of a further 1,000 new gardaí and 200 more Garda staff and additional Garda reserve this year. At the end of April, the overall Garda workforce was over 18,000, particularly in the Dublin metropolitan region, where it was close to 4,000 gardaí assigned on the same date. We have equipped gardaí in that three divisions are now the site of proof of concept for body-worn cameras and the trial of deployment of conductive energy devices, CEDs, to train front-line gardaí. We are continuing to work on the resourcing of An Garda Síochána.

We also now have youth diversion programmes in every part of the country. Children must engage with youth diversion programmes or else they will be dealt with through the criminal justice system. We need a wider societal approach to this. Young people throwing stones at a woman with a buggy is shocking and appalling behaviour, and parents, families and communities in society also have to take responsibility here. However, there are many positive things happening across society, with many volunteers doing extraordinary work with young people, in sporting clubs and in a variety of social and youth clubs and cultural organisations. All that must be equally affirmed and acknowledged, and we resource and support that.

It is our view that greater visibility of gardaí on the street will deter actions of the kind the Deputy has outlined. Where extra gardaí have been deployed, that has been the experience. Gardaí are also reporting significant progress in respect of certain crimes and criminal activity which also needs to be acknowledged. In certain communities, we need something on the model, which the Minister, Deputy Calleary has now developed in respect of the Department of community and rural development with Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer. The whole idea of having particular, co-ordinated resources in certain communities will give a broad-based approach, somewhat like the RAPID programme of a previous era, which can deal on multiple fronts with this phenomenon the Deputy has described.

Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Independent)
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I have given credit where it is due before with Government initiatives, and the body-worn cameras is one positive response. However, even with the addition of gardaí, the numbers per head of population are still at 2008 levels. People want an Operation Irene all year round, where they have that visible Garda deterrence but they are not actually seeing it. The juvenile resources work; there are many projects around the country doing fantastic work. However, it is about trying to stop kids getting to that stage in the first place. As I said, 13 or 14 offences before they are brought into the system is too many.

I take the Taoiseach's point on the societal approach; there has to be something that will deter and get the parents involved. If they are working, that might be deducting tax, or if they are on social welfare, it is deducting social welfare. Anything that will hit people will make them think twice about the way their kids are behaving. There is obviously deprivation-related issues and parents need support, so we have to take a holistic approach to this. However, as the Taoiseach said, as a society, we are not dealing with it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I take the Deputy's point in respect of multiple offences. We will discuss that further, as well as the Deputy's issue of monetary penalties in respect of people's incomes.

There has been a general reluctance on that front because you could create unintended consequences for others in the family, including other children in the family who are not breaking the law, but I take the Deputy's point more generally that there have to be consequences for crime, particularly where people are committing multiple offences. I know that the Minister for justice, along with other Ministers, will certainly continue to work on that.