Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I propose to take Questions Nos. 24 to 43, inclusive, together.

The Government published our new national digital and AI strategy, a commitment in the programme for Government, in February. Digital Ireland – Connecting our People, Securing our Future sets out the Government's ambition to 2030 to strengthen Ireland's position as a digital leader and a global hub for applied AI innovation. Through Digital Ireland, we are building on our strengths, our well-established reputation as a digital hub, an exceptional talent base and a vibrant innovation ecosystem to ensure our economy reaps the benefit of digital and AI for growth and competitiveness, to enhance public service delivery and to empower our people to thrive in a digital society.

The strategy sets out 20 high-level objectives and 90 specific deliverables, reflecting the breadth of ambition across Government on public service delivery, enterprise, infrastructure, cybersecurity, digital regulation, online safety and skills and talent. It outlines five strategic mutually reinforcing ambitions - apply, grow, invest, lead and empower - reflecting the agile approach needed to succeed in a fast-evolving digital world. Included in it are applying digital and AI technologies to enhance how we deliver our public services and drive responsible AI adoption across the public sector; growing our digital economy and competitiveness and strengthening our profile as a location for investment in a global hub for applied AI; investing in secure and resilient future-proofed digital infrastructure, including building our cybersecurity capacity; leading as a trusted, agile and forward-looking digital regulatory hub and centre of excellence; empowering our people, workers and businesses to thrive in a digital economy and society through responsive and inclusive digital and AI skills and literacy opportunities; and enhancing our online safety framework at national and EU levels to protect vulnerable cohorts, in particular children and young people.

We will continue to be a strong voice in Europe for a digital economy that supports competitiveness and innovation while protecting data privacy and fundamental rights. This includes continuing to advocate for an ambitious and dynamic approach to digital simplification. Digital Ireland reiterates our commitment to strengthening Ireland's position as an EU centre of excellence and digital regulatory hub and to ensuring a modern, cohesive and well-resourced regulatory framework that is responsive to the evolving digital age.

We are mindful that technological advances such as AI will, inevitably, bring labour market disruption. The strategy includes a range of measures to support all workers, in the public and private sectors, to navigate and mitigate the impact of potential job displacement, including through responsive and accessible skills supports. I recently proposed that the Government, trade unions and employers establish a forum under the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, to explore specifically the impacts of AI and wider digital change on the workplace in more detail. The updated strategy was developed through extensive cross-Government and stakeholder consultation, and regular stakeholder engagement will be a central feature of its delivery.

I will read the rest but will first allow others to come in.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all of the Deputies who raised various issues. I think the common denominator among all the contributions is the issue of protecting children, in particular, from the very harmful effects of social media. I understand and share parents’ concerns about the damage being done to children by social media. It was not today or yesterday that I described it as "the public health [challenge] of our time".

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was actually over two years ago when I made that very point at our own Ard-Fheis in terms of the challenges. There is no question that it is harming cognitive development and making many children’s lives much more challenging, difficult and, in some cases, miserable. It can facilitate bullying and much worse. It is ruining childhoods for too many children, so action needs to be taken.

I respect Deputy Malcolm Byrne’s right to be agnostic on some solutions, but we have to work on a number of fronts. I can recall the case with other addictive substances, such as tobacco. People always said that if we banned it, or banned the pack of ten, people would find a way around it. Kids used to get single cigarettes at the time we banned it.

We just made it harder. It does not mean there is complete compliance or complete coverage, but at least we are making it more restrictive and denormalising what has now become normal. I suggest there is an incremental series of steps that we have to take in respect of this.

Our preference is for an EU-wide approach. I attended a meeting recently hosted by President Macron on the banning of social media for under-15s and under-16s. The European Commission, with President von der Leyen, is bringing forward proposals in respect of this quite shortly. Commissioner McGrath, whom I met on Friday, said this to me as well. An EU-wide approach basically means taking on the platforms and saying to the platforms that they are preventing access. That would be more straightforward for the platforms to implement. It would avoid gaps in application and enforcement for regulators. An EU-wide approach to digital services, because they are provided across borders, would be a more effective way of doing this.

I was taken by the Oireachtas committee’s report. It was well researched, to be fair. I accept we do need to debate this. The precise mechanisms by which access to these platforms would be prohibited need to be worked out. I also accept what Deputy Malcolm Byrne has said about the views of children and young people being ascertained. We have a history of doing that, in fairness – even before the Department of children was established. I remember the idea that one would consult children and young people being laughed at in the early 2000s. Now it is the norm. Regarding child poverty last year, we convened a group of young people to consult on the relevant issues. We do it across the board, and there is no reason we should not do it for AI.

I will come back to Deputy Ó Cearúil on his question on specific times and actions. The more important thing is to get the substantive stuff done. What is interesting is that, in some of the economic appraisals, Ireland is doing quite well in attracting investment because of AI and the levels of skills within the country already. We have to look at this as both a challenge and an opportunity. Sometimes too much of the debate can be on the challenge side of it, with not enough on the opportunity. I will come back to the matter.

Deputy McGreehan is spot on in terms of the skills issue. Skillnet will have a major role.

One of the issues we will discuss with the social partners, and which we have encountered in recent times, relates to our having used some of the fund for skills, the National Training Fund, for universities and so on. There is an argument that we should try to ring-fence some of that fund for AI skills training. There will have to be a massive nationwide programme on upskilling because the focus should be on redeployment. There are opportunities within the public sector in terms of changing the nature of work, and new opportunities to redeploy and maybe achieve more effective outcomes as a result. Training is going to be key, and we will consider front-loading funding in respect of that issue.

Deputy Ó Murchú also raised Skillnet, the under-16s and the addictive algorithms. These are the issues that I understand the European Commission will be addressing. I would make the point, however, that last year we brought in a restriction in schools concerning the utilisation of smartphones, and the Deputies opposite lampooned and attacked it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was not a better way of doing it. Deputy Tóibín was at it as well.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Through the Chair, we need to be consistent on this. It worked.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was impactful and it was a start in getting young people out of utilisation. By the way, all of the Deputies should leave their phones outside the Dáil. Let us start here. We are talking about the pervasive impact. All of the Deputies have mobile phones.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They do not concentrate on the job at hand.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy just pressed it now again.

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Connolly raised the issue of the importance of having children and young people involved. I agree with that. Deputy Paul Murphy and Deputy Connolly raised the issue of what happens at 15 or 16. The education piece is very important, but it is the scale and the overwhelming nature of social media that seem to me to be quite different from the scale associated with earlier restrictive practices like censorship of books or other material in the past. Access to social media is universal; that is the problem. In previous eras, we endeavoured to educate for these reasons. As with most issues, it is a combination of education, prevention and restrictive laws at the same time. We have never had a laissez-faire approach to any issue that could potentially damage children and young people, so we cannot have the same laissez-faire attitude to social media either. However, I take the point that the mechanisms by which we achieve this are important and are still up for debate. The Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Services, Reform and Digitalisation, Deputy Jack Chambers, is working on this with the Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport, Deputy Patrick O’Donovan, as well, because the former of the two has responsibility for the implementation of the EU digital wallet, which is a factor in age verification. There are thorny issues around that as well, which I expect Deputies will come to us on. It is about holding platforms to account over the material they are providing.

I believe I have answered some of what Deputy Paul Murphy said. It is about what people can and should not have access to, and the companies have to respond. That is why an EU approach would be the optimal one. We will act ourselves, obviously, if we do not have that, but we already have significant laws in place. However, this is moving it on. It is interesting that the UK has made announcements. We will examine the Australian model and so forth.

On the AI strategy, Deputy Hayes said jobs were not mentioned. Jobs are critical. I did mention jobs but the point the Deputy is making is that people were laid off in Covalen. We have to be careful, too. Some companies are saying jobs are being lost because of AI but we must ask whether this is the cause in all cases. In other words, is it the application of AI that is causing job losses in some instances or is it decisions to invest hugely in AI and then look for resources elsewhere within an organisation or a company? It could be a bit of both. It is surprising that many of the workers are under the two-year mark. At best, that suggests fairly poor human resource planning. We have labour law here and workers have rights and entitlements. We will again work on the situation raised. I am not familiar with the specifics but I believe there are labour laws governing some aspects. The company should meet the union and engage with it on this.

I discussed most of the issues Deputy Tóibín raised. I would not say we are too uncritical of AI. We are not, but I made a point earlier that it is about challenges and opportunities. We have to look at the opportunities as well as the challenges, and also the reality. The Deputy might not like AI, but for me it has many potential benefits-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----particularly in health diagnostics, in terms of what it can do in disease prevention or understanding pathways in getting to develop medicines and interventions that could accelerate really better treatments for people in a whole range of areas. Therefore, there are opportunities. I visited Analog last week, and it is very clear to me that it is already looking towards the next era, when sensors and semiconductors will be engaging with AI. Essentially, it is going to be quite dramatic. We can either watch and bemoan the emergence of AI or we can seek to be ahead of the posse because we have to be competitive and have to protect and create jobs for people.

It is probably a bit early to refer to the observatory on AI business readiness, but I will ask the relevant Minister, Deputy Burke, to respond to the Deputy on it. We have to evaluate measures we have implemented to determine what is happening. I appreciate the point the Deputy is making but business adoption is a key part of the strategy.