Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I want to ask the Tánaiste about the SNA circular and the recent bad handling by the Department of a reorganisation of SNAs. It has caused huge upset within and without this House.

I pay tribute to Michelle Cotterell, who is the principal of Our Lady of Good Counsel Boys' National School in Johnstown in my constituency. Ms Cotterell was one of the leaders in highlighting this issue. One of the reasons for that was that her school was one of the ones that got the really bad news about SNAs.

I welcome the steps taken by the Government to stop this and to give some certainty to people until the end of the next academic year, but the reality is that is the extent of the certainty that they have been given. Already, SNAs and schools worry about what is going to happen in the following academic year.

There are two issues that have emerged from this that we need to address urgently. The first is the redrafting and refocusing of Circular 30/14, which was reissued in 2024 and is totally out of date. The circular does not reflect the reality of what teachers are facing on the ground in terms of the difficulties that some students have and the accommodations that they need, and the assistance they need, much of which is provided through the SNA system. The circular does not reference the many conditions we know children now have to face - the difficulties and the obstacles they face in terms of achieving the same educational equality that we all want for all of our children. As a parent whose child has not yet started school, I know that as she approaches that age this will be a concern for us and for other parents in a similar position. Will the Tánaiste commit to the redesign and refocusing of that circular in a way that reflects what has to be done? Will he also answer the question in relation to what certainty can be provided on a longer term basis because, although the Government has stepped in and I am delighted that it did, we still have a job to do to convince SNAs, teachers, principals, parents and children that there is certainty in the longer term?

The second point is perhaps a wider issue. I have put down questions in this House about what the cost would be of expanding the SNA provision and having a second adult in every classroom - a second pair of hands for every teacher. Although there are children who have more profound needs and may need more focused attention from an SNA, the notion that we have school classrooms the way they were 30 or 40 years ago is now an outdated model. We need to look at a situation where teachers have that assistance within the classroom from another adult and that should not be limited to classes where they can prove there is a specific need for a specific child. We should be looking at it from a policy perspective and saying there is a broader idea here that we should be giving teachers the back-up and support that they need and that means a second pair of hands in every room in addition to maybe targeted supports that are proven, through medical need or whatever it might be, in accordance with the circular. Nobody in the Department of education seems to be able to answer the question as to how much it would cost to have an SNA in every classroom in addition to whatever specific needs are tailored to the children in that classroom.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Ward for bringing up this issue. I am particularly grateful to him for mentioning Michelle Cotterell, the principal, because I saw the report on the Six One news the other night. I have never met Ms Cotterell - I would be happy to meet her - but I thought her presentation of the issue was exceptional. She made the point - indeed, it is a point I have been repeating in the days since - that we have to use the period of time between now and future school years to look at the fact that the school community or composition, not only of that school but of all schools, has changed significantly since the 2014 circular, and that is what we intend to do.

We have to be honest in relation to this, and we should be honest. Parents of children with special needs assistants, teachers and SNAs themselves know this. Reviews have always been a feature of the SNA system. They largely paused since Covid. They have always been a feature. We need to make sure, though, that the review is based on a revised circular that is more reflective and understanding of the reality in the school classroom today. The reality is that when it comes to the phrase "additional and significant needs", there are children whose additional and significant care needs are obvious and visible, and there now likely more such children, certainly than there were in 2014, and there are some who are less likely to be visible and perhaps could be referred to as hidden or at least often hidden. That is the point that I heard Ms Cotterell make. It is a point that I heard many people make. It is a point that I think is true.

We are going to revise the circular. We should do this in a deliberative manner. We should listen, we should engage and we should get it right.

Crucially, we also need to get the SNA redeployment scheme over the line. My understanding is it is almost there. This is something that I acknowledge Fórsa has been engaging constructively on. I thank it for that. This is important and it would put SNAs on a similar par to teachers in terms of redeployment.

Third, we need to also have a look at workforce planning in general in special education. What frustrates parents of a child with additional needs is that we can stand here and say we are spending more money than ever before - true - we will have more SNAs in classrooms than ever before - true - and we will have more special classes open than ever before - true - and yet one will not meet many parents of a child with additional needs who feels the system is where the system needs to be. We need to look at how we workforce plan.

The Deputy raised an interesting point and I will not give a knee-jerk response to it on the floor of the Dáil. I certainly remember when I was in school a classroom assistant used to actually be a role. I have no sense of where the policy thinking in the Department of education is on that but I will certainly follow up with the Minister for education on that.

Our priority, alongside the SNA circular review, is the roll-out of the therapist workforce in education. We now have for the first time - it has only started - established within the NCSE an education therapy workforce. Forty-five special schools are being sanctioned first but the ultimate aim here is to get this into mainstream schools. That could make a very significant difference because one of the realities that I hear from SNAs is that often they find themselves having to also pick up the slack due to the lack of provision of other services, most particularly therapies. We need to look at how we can address that therapy deficit too.

Barry Ward (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Tánaiste. One word he used in his answer is really important, and that is "understanding". The circular needs to represent an understanding of what teachers face and what school communities face in terms of the additional assistance they need to put in place.

I attended a meeting earlier this week with approximately 30 principals from my constituency. One of the comments at that meeting was that the Government does not trust teachers. I do not think that is the case. There is an issue of trust with the Department and with officials because the reality is that, through the scheme, when teachers go to the Department and say they need X, Y or Z in terms of special needs assistants, what they get back is a load of paperwork asking them to prove it, essentially. We need to move, through the circular and through the scheme, to a place where we are trusting teachers, who are the professionals on the ground, the people with the training and the people with knowledge of the particular school community. When they say they need something, we should accept that they need it and are not saying it to make their lives easier or because they have picked a figure out of the air. Let us trust teachers, let us deliver for them and let us make sure that the children they are teaching are given the best possible opportunity to achieve what they can achieve in terms of their schooling.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Something good has to come from this. When you are a parent under pressure worrying if your child is going to get the supports that they need, you do not really care which arm of the State, which office, which Minister or which Department. The buck stops with us, the Government. That is why we needed to stop the review, provide the additional SNAs where that was identified, not have a downward revision in schools but then crucially use this time - that is the really important bit.

I say this in the spirit it is meant. We should engage collaboratively in this House, whether at relevant Oireachtas committees or wherever the appropriate place is, to identify what we want the system to look like into the future. The level of investment now, quite rightly, is very high.

The number of people in the system, quite rightly, is very high. All of us feel that we are getting to a point where it is also going to have to involve a conversation about reform and about what an inclusive model of education looks like. Nobody has a monopoly in terms of the answer on that.

It has been an upsetting week. In politics, when something goes wrong, it is your responsibility to say that, to fix it and to learn from it. That is what we intend to do.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Before we move to Questions on Policy or Legislation, I wish to acknowledge the group of students in the Public Gallery. They sat patiently through all of the Leaders' Questions and other business of the House. I do not know where or what constituency they are from or what school they might be from, but I want to give them a bit of homework. They might write to the Ceann Comhairle to let us know what they thought of this morning's behaviour.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I would love to hear from them, because my 12-year-old grandchild tells me that if her class behaved the way some people behave in this House-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Some.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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-----they would be sent to the principal's office. I do not know what the equivalent of that would be in Dáil Éireann-----

Ken O'Flynn (Cork North-Central, Independent Ireland Party)
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That would be your office

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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-----but, certainly, I could pick out a few from this morning and most other Thursday mornings, whom I would love to send to the principal's office. I look forward to hearing from the students.