Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
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I move:

That Dáil Éireann shall take note of the Report of the Joint Committee on Health entitled "Report on Pre-Legislative Scrutiny of the Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) (Amendment) Bill", copies of which were laid before Dáil Éireann on 9th October, 2025.

Tonight we are debating a report published by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health. This was a report we worked on last summer across the committee as a pre-legislative scrutiny report on the forthcoming Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) (Amendment) Bill. I thank everybody who worked on the report, and who contributed to it, in particular my fellow members of the committee. I chaired the committee and Deputy Colm Burke is the Leas-Chathaoirleach. The members of the committee include Deputies Michael Cahill, Sorca Clarke, David Cullinane, Martin Daly, Pádraig O'Sullivan, Peter Roche, Marie Sherlock, and a number of Senators, including Senators Manus Boyle, Maria Byrne, Tom Clonan, Teresa Costello and Nicole Ryan. This was the first report we published. It is a really important topic, one that has real impacts on the lives of many people, some of whom have joined us in the Gallery this evening, who are directly affected by the issue and whose lives and families are impacted by the delay in the legislation and in the failure of the State to legislate on this issue over a long period of time.

I intend to talk through our report. I will outline the foreword for the record. I will read that out and I will talk through the recommendations, of which we have 18 in total. The foreword states:

The journey towards robust legislation to regulate and support donor assisted human reproduction (DAHR) and surrogacy has been a long and winding one spanning over a quarter of a century. This has included the Commission on Assisted Human Reproduction (2000), a special Joint Oireachtas Committee on International Surrogacy (2022) and a series of cases through our courts.

At times over the last 25 years progress has felt slow, at others sudden. What has developed during that time is a fragmented landscape, with significant gaps and barriers.

The Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Act 2024 (the 2024 Act) was a landmark and long-awaited piece of legislation. Unfortunately, the legislation, which remains uncommenced, contains several gaps and leaves too many families behind. The proposed supplementary legislation that was the subject of our consideration must close these gaps and finally provide a workable framework for assisted human reproduction.

It’s crucially important that supplementary legislation is as inclusive as possible – with a central focus on the rights of the child. In particular, the proposed legislation must facilitate ethical international DAHR and protect the rights of our citizens abroad. It’s also important that it recognises and vindicates the right to procreate and the right to private and family life.

Any interference with these rights by the State must be proportional and minimally invasive.

Legislating in this area is complex, but not impossible. It’s important to acknowledge that this pre-legislative scrutiny report is based on a policy paper provided by the Department of Health rather than a published general scheme or draft Bill. This policy paper was supplemented by a series of written questions to the Department.

While not best practice, this approach was undertaken to ensure there would be no unnecessary delays and that the legislation can progress as it is a matter of real and pressing importance for the families affected.

Our committee was really keen that we would do this work as quickly as possible. We did not wait for the Department to provide us with the full scheme, because we want to see this legislation passed and enacted as quickly as possible.

I thank the key stakeholders for their extensive engagement and constructive proposals, in particular, the LGBTQ+ Parenting Alliance, made up of LGBT Ireland, Equality for Children and Irish Gay Dads, and Irish Families Through Surrogacy. Both groups have carried out extensive and detailed analyses which have informed and shaped the recommendations of this report. I also thank the officials from the Department of Health for their engagement on the issue and the committee secretariat for its ongoing support.

As I mentioned, this report has 18 recommendations which we hope will help to shape the draft Bill to ensure that it meets the needs of everybody concerned. The recommendations also include a list of legislative actions for the Department of Health to consider as well as recommendations on surrogacy leave, which is a matter for the Department of Social Protection. I hope that the Bill, once passed and enacted, will be the final step in what has been a very long journey towards the creation of an inclusive assisted human reproduction framework for Ireland.

As I said, this has been a very long journey and I commend the families and the advocates on all of their work on this. Prior to my election, I worked with LGBT Ireland, one of the organisations that advocated in this area and I saw first-hand how hard these families have worked to advocate for their rights. These are people who, after they put their kids to bed at night, get on Zoom calls with other parents who have been left behind and who lack family rights. They have been campaigning now for over 25 years to have their families recognised, to have equal parental rights and to be treated equally by the State. They have campaigned outside the Dáil, held protests and written so many submissions to Government Departments. I do not know how they have the energy to keep doing it and it has gone on for far too long at this stage.

I will talk through some of the recommendations from the report. As I already said, there are 18 recommendations and I would be really keen to hear from the Minister of State on each of the recommendations and the Department's position on them. If the Department is not accepting the committee's recommendations, I would really like to know why not. If the Minister of State is not in a position to tell us today, I ask that she would write to the committee to set out, in detail, the Department's position on each of our 18 recommendations. The committee worked on this report last summer and we would really like to see a robust response from the Department. We have not heard from the Department yet on it and it is important that we do.

Our first recommendation is that the Bill must address all of the gaps in the 2024 Act. That is a simple, fairly straightforward call that we get this right now. We had the Act in 2024 and, as we have identified, there are serious gaps in that legislation. The next piece, the second Bill, has to close all of those gaps. We cannot be back here again in 12 or 18 months with a third or fourth Bill. Once and for all, we must close the gaps. We have identified them and we need to do it for the families affected.

Our second recommendation is that the Bill must have a child's rights-based framework. Provision should be made to enshrine the paramountcy principle of the child's best interests in the granting of parental orders or in the declaration of parental orders under the 2015 Children and Family Relationships Act and the 2024 Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Act. This is one of the key requests of families and advocates, that we enshrine the best interests of the child in the legislation. It is really important that when judges are adjudicating on these matters, they are asking what is in the best interests of the child before them. That is fundamental and really crucial.

Linked to that is our third recommendation, that in decisions on parentage in relation to surrogacy or donor-assisted human reproduction, the courts and decision-making bodies should be provided with some level of judicial discretion. Each case is different and discretion is a key feature of family law. If we look at other pieces of family law like the Adoption Act 2010, the Child Care Act 1991, the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964, the Mental Health Act 2001, the Children First Act 2015 and the Child and Family Agency Act 2013, we see that they all enshrine the use of the paramountcy principle. I do not understand why this has not been done here. We do it in lots of other areas of family law where there is discretion and the best interests of the child are enshrined in the legislation. It should be happening here. This is not just the recommendation of the Oireachtas joint committee. It is also the recommendation of the Ombudsman for Children and the special rapporteur for child protection. They have both recommended that the paramountcy principle be inserted into the 2024 Act and that is a key request. It is top of the list here, which is important, as is the piece on judicial discretion.

We believe that the Bill must be equality proofed. Recommendation No. 5 is that in cases of international donor-assisted human production, the Bill must provide a mechanism for second parents to have their parentage recognised. This is really crucial. People have created families together. They have decided that they are going to have children, but at the moment we have so many families where only one parent is recognised and the other parent is left as a legal stranger. This has huge impacts on children and their families. Not having a pathway to parentage means that the person who is raising them is not even recognised as their parent. It has impacts in terms of going to school and to the doctor and at passport control. It can give rise to longer term issues around acquiring citizenship rights and, in the event that one of the parents dies, there are issues around inheritance. It is fundamentally important that children have the protection of both of their parents and that the people who are raising them are not legal strangers. These are their parents and they have always been their parents. They have been their parents from before they were born and the State should recognise that. We need to close the gaps in the law to allow these people to be parents and not let criteria like where children were conceived or where they were born exclude them from having two legal parents like any other family.

In cases of Irish citizens born abroad, the Bill must include a process to recognise the parentage of those children born through surrogacy or donor-assisted reproduction. We have to provide protections for our citizens abroad. It cannot just be the case that we have a pathway to parentage for those born in the Republic. We have Irish citizens living all around the world. So many people from my generation were forced to emigrate and they have children born abroad. Those children deserve Irish citizenship and deserve to be recognised. We need to fix the gaps in the law to allow that to happen.

Our seventh recommendation is that provision should be made for a path to parentage for Irish citizens returning home who are in same-sex couples and whose children were born or conceived abroad in countries that do not recognise both parents. We know that, right across the world, there are countries that fail to recognise same-sex couples and their families. If Irish citizens are living in these countries, like Poland or Hungary, for example, and they have children there, when they return home, there should be a pathway to get recognised as parents. This only affects a small group of people but it is an important issue.

Our eighth recommendation is that children of citizens born abroad through surrogacy or donor-assisted reproduction should have the right to become Irish citizens.

Our ninth recommendation is that all unnecessary barriers to recognition must be removed. Non-court administrative processes should be considered as part of the Adoption Act. The requirement for the High Court should be reconsidered and applications for past surrogacy agreements should be allowed to be made through the Circuit Court. We have to make it as easy as possible for parents to get through these processes. Expecting people to go to the High Court, at huge cost, is not necessary is not provided for in other Acts and should be reduced.

Our tenth recommendation is that a legal value should be put on the female genetic link in donor-assisted human reproduction and surrogacy.

Recommendation No. 11 is that the 2015 Act should be amended to allow joint parental rights for same-sex couples in cases of non-clinical conception. This is really important. We should not be forcing people to go to a clinic to conceive a child when they can conceive at home in comfort and with reduced costs. Ultimately, there is a key question here about reproductive freedom. There are ways to protect the rights of the child, genetic information and so on. They have been set out in Private Member's Bills put before this House and the Government should accept those and work through them. People's right to reproductive freedom should be respected in this House.

The 2024 Act contains no provision for parental leave or benefits for surrogacy families and this must be rectified as a matter of urgency. I ask that the Department of Health would write to the Department of Social Protection to get provisions in place as soon as possible so that these families can avail of legal benefits and surrogacy benefits. There cannot be a gap there.

The 13th recommendation is that the Assisted Human Reproduction Regulatory Authority, AHRRA, should be provided with the power to establish ethics committees to consider individual circumstances in cases where surrogacy agreements go beyond the prescribed framework. We cannot have a rigid checklist. There is room for dealing with this on a case-by-case basis and for ethics committees to examine these cases so that people are not criminalised for stepping one inch beyond the law and facing criminal prosecution because of that. There should be a framework here for an ethical way to deal with these issues.

Recommendation No. 14 is that every effort must be made to ensure consistency between the 2015 Children and Family Relationships Act and the 2024 Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Act, particularly, for example, in relation to habitual residency requirements.

Recommendation No. 15 is that adequate funding and support should be provided to the AHRRA to ensure that it can fulfil its various functions efficiently. I would be interested to hear if any money has been provided in the budget for the new agency. When we set up these new State bodies, agencies and regulatory frameworks, we have to fund and resource them properly. From what I can see, we have not heard how much money has been allocated. If we want the AHRRA to carry out this function and to manage this whole area, we need to resource it properly.

Recommendation No. 16 is that the provisions of the 2024 Act should be reviewed to ensure they are trans inclusive, especially the provisions relating to gametes. We often talk here about trans rights and we need to do that in law as well. We must make sure that our law is inclusive and not excluding people. We can do that by making the language more gender neutral in certain areas. It is a simple change but an important one.

Recommendation No. 17 is that the Department of Health should run an awareness campaign in advance of the commencement of the 2024 Act. The aim of the awareness campaign is to provide clarity for intending parents on the new law and the transitional provisions. Clear guidance should be given on the required documents and procedures.

It is really important as these are big changes to the law. This is a new framework and a new, big Act. The Department has a role in providing clarity, creating awareness and informing people of what the procedures are under the new law so if they are intending to become parents, they know what is involved and what rules they have to follow. The Department has to spend some money on that and run that awareness campaign.

Finally, our 18th recommendation is that clarity must be provided on when the Act will be commenced in full. I would love to hear from the Minister of State about when the Minister intends to commence the 2024 Act and when she intends to bring forward the supplementary Bill that will hopefully, once and for all, close all of these gaps. These recommendations from the Oireachtas joint committee are not radical but they will fix the gaps. They will provide families right across the country with the protections they need and, in particular, children so they have the right to both of their parents. For the parents across the country, I really hope we do this without delay.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I am delighted to be here this evening to note the publication of the pre-legislative scrutiny report in respect of the Bill. This is the last item of business for 2025 and I believe it is an extremely important one to discuss. I thank the Cathaoirleach of the Joint Committee on Health, Deputy Rice, and commend him on his commitment and passion on this issue. I compliment committee members and committee staff for the highly collaborative and practical way they have worked with my ministerial colleagues and Department officials. I particularly acknowledge the co-operation of the committee for their commitment to producing the report in such a timely fashion. As Deputy Rice said, the committee worked last summer to do that.

The PLS report includes a total of 18 recommendations, which the Deputy has gone through. I assure him and the committee that the issues raised have been and are being considered as part of the formal drafting process. At this juncture and point in the deliberative process on the amending Bill, I cannot be specific on some of the issues raised. However, I can say that, without prejudice to the outcome of any future Oireachtas debates and decisions, it is anticipated at this point that many of the recommendations will be reflected in the legislation when it is published.

There are many moving parts in legislating for the myriad of very complex issues associated with assisted human reproduction in Ireland. The PLS report was a key piece in the jigsaw, so its publication is welcomed. I also assure the House that work is continuing on other elements in this area and I am happy to report that much progress has been made and intensive work is continuing. As the House will be aware, the Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Act was signed into law by the President in July last year, having passed all stages in both Houses of the Oireachtas. The primary purpose of this complex and far-reaching legislation is to regulate fertility clinics providing assisted human reproduction. The AHR Bill, as initially published, also included provisions in respect of domestic altruistic surrogacy. However, the final 2024 Act also includes substantive new provisions in respect of the regulation of future surrogacy arrangements undertaken by Irish residents in other jurisdictions and the recognition of parentage arising from certain past domestic and international surrogacy arrangements.

While the 2024 Act was progressing through the Houses of the Oireachtas, issues were identified that required further consideration and consultation with the Office of the Attorney General. Formal drafting of the AHR amendment Bill, which is largely concerned with outstanding issues of parentage and citizenship but also seeks to make other refinements and improvements to various sections of the AHR Act 2024 itself, is at an advanced stage, led by the Office of Parliamentary Counsel, in conjunction with officials from the Departments of Health, Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, and Children, Disability and Equality. Drafting work on the amending Bill is continuing.

Some administrative sections of the 2024 Act have been commenced, specifically to allow the Assisted Human Reproduction Regulatory Authority, AHRRA, to be formally established. In addition, the Minister expects to commence section 232 of the 2024 Act, which would result in the parentage of some donor-conceived children not covered by the Children and Family Relationships Act 2015 being officially recognised. The board of the regulatory authority, chaired by Professor Deirdre Madden, has met on a number of occasions. It is expected that a CEO will be appointed very soon. These developments represent very significant milestones on our path to providing the necessary oversight and regulation in this area of health.

It is worth emphasising two crucial principles that have underpinned all legislative measures in this sphere. First, the many safeguards and requirements within the legislation are there to protect the rights and welfare of intending parents, surrogate mothers and, most of all, all the children born as a result of assisted human reproduction. Of course, as a Government, we are committed to doing our best to achieve the best outcomes for all involved. As I am sure the Deputy will agree, this whole area needs to be looked at forensically through a human rights lens, with an absolute focus on the care and protection of the surrogate mother. We need to carry out every human rights appraisal and evaluation possible to prevent possible exploitation of individuals. The Minister is obliged to protect the women we do not hear from - the women who do not have a voice. We must also consider and give due regard to EU and international developments in this space and learn the valuable lessons that experience and practice show us.

As an Oireachtas, we must use the opportunity the PLS report presents to reflect and to make sure that we get this right. We need to actively to listen to all of the viewpoints and be confident that advancing rights for some is not at the cost of the rights of others. I understand that the Department of justice is working closely with the Department of Health to ensure that the health (assisted human reproduction) (amendment) Bill has sufficient safeguards to protect the rights of surrogate mothers, including from the threat of human trafficking, and continues to engage with the Department of Health on the matter as drafting continues. Through the regulation of both international and domestic surrogacy, the 2024 Act guards against the trafficking of women for the purpose of exploitation through surrogacy.

This will be ensured, in the first place, by the criteria used by the AHRRA to approve surrogacy jurisdictions. This will include consideration of the laws regarding surrogacy in the jurisdiction, the regulation and oversight of those involved in the provision of services related to surrogacy, and the rights of surrogate mothers, including the extent to which they are enforced. Consideration will also be given to the ability of the authority to monitor compliance with the provisions of the AHR Act in that jurisdiction. This goal will also be achieved by the ban on commercial surrogacy, which will reduce any financial incentive to trafficking for the purpose of exploitation through surrogacy.

Similarly, there are controls in place as regards the payments to intermediaries. Separately, it will be necessary for the surrogate mother to receive appropriate information and independent legal advice prior to entering a surrogacy agreement. Finally, there will be a residency requirement of two years in the surrogacy jurisdiction before a woman can act as a surrogate mother. Combined, these measures provide robust protections and safeguards against the possible exploitation of surrogate mothers. Second, all provisions in the 2015 Act, the 2024 Act and the forthcoming Bill in respect of donor-assisted human reproduction and surrogacy apply equally, irrespective of whether the intending parents are a same-sex couple or an opposite-sex couple, or if there is a single intending parent.

Finally, on behalf of the Minister and myself, I again commend the health committee on the report and recommendations. The Minister looks forward to continuing to progress the AHR legislation and develop the regulatory framework in the spirit of co-operation demonstrated to date by the committee and the Oireachtas as a whole. I apologise on behalf of the Minister who was not in a position to be here herself this evening.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Minister of State for her comments and for being here tonight to address this important matter. I recognise the work that Deputy Rice and the committee have done in bringing forward this report. It is irregular to be discussing a PLS report on legislation that does not yet exist. I recognise having tonight's debate allows us to hone in on a number of issues of key concern.

It is far more difficult to do that when one does not see a list of heads of Bill, which is what pre-legislative scrutiny is about. It is to give the TDs and Senators on the committee, outside interest groups and, indeed, the Minister and the civil servants involved with its drafting the opportunity to go into some detail on the heads of Bill and discuss what is there, what is missing and how it can be improved. When we do not have those heads, that absence is certainly noted. We are, therefore, speaking in theory on quite a lot of the points we are making tonight.

It is important to briefly recall how we have got to the particular situation now. I want to recognise the work the previous Minister for Health, Stephen Donnelly, did in advancing the first Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Act. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, worked closely when she was in the Department of justice. I had some involvement in terms of the Department of children and equality. A call was made in mid-2024 to get that Act passed because, although it was recognised there were some gaps or new issues had come up that did need to be addressed, nevertheless that Act could provide legal protection for large numbers of families and parents. I note two things. It was the right call to make at the time, but it is disappointing that significant sections of that Act still have not been commenced. There are parts of that existing Act that could be commenced that do not require this new Bill. I am glad the Minister referenced section 232. That is something I have been asking the Minister for Health about for a considerable period of time. I know it is not just sitting within the Department of Health. There are issues to do with the rules of the District Court and Circuit Court and issues to do with the Department as well. However, addressing that could provide relief for a body of people who need its provisions. I ask that in the new year, the Minister of State maybe urges her officials and her colleague, the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan in the Department of justice, to move rapidly ahead with that because it can be done, and it will help people.

In terms of the report, there were just one or two points I want to focus on in a little bit of detail. That question of judicial discretion to always apply what is in the best interests of the child in a particular case before the judge should be reconsidered by the Department of Health. I absolutely understand that the rules on surrogacy need to be strict. There is a very important reason. These are fundamental decisions about the parentage of children. It is important that the rules are strict and the legislation, or what we are told the legislation will look like, does set out detailed rules for that. However, there are circumstances where a mistake or an error that is outside the control of the intended parents may take place and for the recognition of parents' rights to be refused in absolutely every situation due to a fault that was outside of the parents' control and which then has the impact that the child they have conceived or the child they now have will not have his or her relationship with those parents recognised in law. That is a huge punishment, not for the wrongdoer in those cases but for the parents or, indeed, for that child.

A right to allow the judge, even in situations where maybe not every provision of the Act has been made, but where a judge can recognise that it is in the best interests of the child in this particular case to allow parentage and grant a parentage order should be provided for in this legislation. It can be circumscribed, but we as a country back in 2013 passed the referendum to put the best interests of the child in our Constitution. That same principle should be recognised in this legislation, not as an opportunity to allow people to wilfully ignore the important rules and importance safeguards around surrogacy but to allow for those occasional situations where something went wrong, or one provision maybe could not be reached but it was not the parents' fault. We should mot penalise that child. I ask the Department to look at that closely.

I refer to the issue of excluding people with blood conditions from being able to use surrogacy. One might on the face of it think there is a health issue for the child, but where those conditions can be addressed through various treatments it risks enhancing the discriminations and worries and stigmas that are out there against certain conditions. If an intending parent has HIV, for example, as the legislation is currently drafted, from my reading, both parents are punished in terms of not being able to use this legislation, particularly where there are medical approaches that can address that and ensure that a child conceived there will not have that medical condition or, indeed, other medical conditions. Again, I ask the Department whether that is necessary at this stage. Is it an appropriate provision to have in legislation in 2025-2026?

I had the opportunity as a Minister in the previous Government and now as a backbencher to meet with many of the organisations and parents - current parents and intending parents - who will benefit from this legislation and whose children will benefit from this legislation in terms of the relationship between parent and child. The de facto relationship will become a legal relationship as well. They are those children's parents, undoubtedly, but that law does not recognise it. It is really important that the Minister of State's Department and the Department of justice continue to engage with them.

I attended a number of meetings in the previous Oireachtas with the then Minister, Deputy Donnelly, and the Minister, Deputy McEntee. I recall that former Senator Seery Kearney was very involved as well. It is important that open dialogue continues. It is a dialogue, and I understand that the answer cannot always be "Yes", but at least that engagement is really important. There is maybe a concern that the engagement has not been as frequent. As this legislation advances, it would be useful to help tease out and maybe help officials in the Minister of State’s Department understand the real-world implications of some of the decisions that are being made on paper without a full understanding.

I thank the Minister of State for her contribution. I recognise the very significant piece of work Deputy Rice and his committee have done. I really urge that this legislation needs to move quickly. We do not really even have proper heads of Bill. We are a year into the term of Government. I ask the Minister of State to urge the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, who I know is interested in this area, and the officials to move rapidly on this because there are a lot of parents and a lot of children whose right to have their legal relationship with their parents recognised is entirely dependent on this work being done.

Marie Sherlock (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I am very glad we are having this debate this evening. I pay tribute to Deputy Rice and, indeed, all our fellow members of the health committee in quite an unorthodox way of keeping the heat and light on this issue. There are ultimately a very small number of families affected by this but the impact of the lack of a comprehensive legislative framework has a profound impact on their lives. They are facing into yet another year of ambiguity and uncertainty in their families' lives. I am painfully conscious that there are many types of families watching this evening. Many types of families end up having to go down the donor assisted route, obviously, both in terms of gay and lesbian couples and also couples who cannot get pregnant due to either illness or infertility. There is a very diverse group of people out there. I know a group of campaigners who have come together, and I want to pay tribute to their tenacity and perseverance. Theirs has been a very long journey in terms of fighting and battling for what should be a legal right for every child born in this country to have both their parents recognised.

The year 2024 was obviously a major milestone in terms of the passing of the legislation. I want to single out in particular my then fellow Senator, Mary Seery Kearney, whom Deputy O'Gorman also mentioned and who worked so hard in this area.

Politics can obviously be a cruel business and she is not in the House this term but she did a huge amount of work in that area.

We have major gaps in the 2024 legislation that need to be resolved. In response to the gaps in the Child and Family Relationships Act 2015, my colleague and party leader, Deputy Ivana Bacik, brought forward legislation in 2023, effectively attempting to address a lot of the gaps we are talking about today and to try to make right the legal inequality for the families we are talking about. It is not just about a child’s right to citizenship or inheritance; it is also about his or her right to travel and, of course, his or her rights in the event of parental separation or death. It is critical the Department gets a move on in drafting the legislation.

I hear what the Minister of State is saying and I thank her for her statement this evening. First, I acknowledge that it is good to hear that the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, will commence section 232 of the 2024 Act. We would like to see that done sooner rather than later. We have yet to hear a timeline as to when this legislation is going to be brought forward, however. I was rereading this afternoon a letter that was sent to the Chair of the committee, Deputy Rice, in June 2025 in which the Minister talked about the drafting being well under way. We are now six months on and we still have yet to see it. No one is doubting the complexity of what we are talking about in this regard. We are all extremely conscious of the complexity but that is not an excuse for delay.

Certainly, in the context of some of the 18 recommendations in our report, recommendation Nos. 2 and 3 in particular, ultimately, this has to be based on a child’s rights-based framework. Part and parcel of that is the paramountcy of the child's best interest. In tandem with that, there is a strong view that we have to afford discretion to AHRRA with regard to the surrogacy agreements that are out there now. I hear what the Minister of State is saying with regard to the real concerns about women who provide surrogacy services. There are real concerns about exploitation and all of that and I absolutely stand with the Minister of State in that regard. That cannot become a blockage to looking at the rights of the child, however. At the end of the day, if a child is born, then we have to put aside how the child came into being and focus on the rights of the child. That is why the discretion piece is important, notwithstanding that all sorts of safeguards have to be put in place. That is certainly one of our key asks when it comes to what should be in this Bill.

Of course, family life is not straightforward or linear. Couples or, indeed, individuals go down the donor-assisted route and then there may be a family breakdown. In that context, it is important that procedures are in place to be able to recognise that. At the end of the day, if the legal recognition is only with one parent, then we have a grossly unequal situation for the whole family, not just for the parents.

The 18 recommendations already have been discussed so I will not repeat them. There is a sense of impatience among the number of families out there who need this legislation. We need to hear the timeline. We want to be able to scrutinise that Bill. I am sure the Oireachtas Committee on Health will do everything it can to make way for that Bill through our committee. At the end of the day, we cannot allow these families to remain in legal limbo this time next year. I hope the Department is doing all in its power to ensure that, in the first quarter of next year, we will have something tangible in our hands because at the moment we are talking about the abstract. We are just talking about our recommendations as a committee but, in some ways, they are not worth the paper they are written on until we see what is going to come back from the Department of Health. I hope that, sooner rather than later, we will see something from the Department.

I pay tribute to all the families watching tonight and all those campaigners. I hope their fight and journey will be completed early next year and that they will have certainty with regard to their family life.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the Members for their valuable contributions this evening. The Minister, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, as Members know, is very supportive of this legislation. I acknowledge the parents who are in the Public Gallery from various advocacy groups who worked and engaged with the 2024 Act and are doing exactly the same again with this new Act that is under way.

This is extremely complex legislation, as everyone can appreciate. As Chief Whip, one of my roles relates to legislation. I had the end-of-year wrap-up with the Attorney General and the Office of Parliamentary Counsel to the Government yesterday afternoon. We discussed the Bill and it is under way. It is legally complex and technical and there is a lot of good co-operation between the Department of Health and the Department of justice on it. While the Minister was hopeful that the Bill would be ready prior to Christmas, it will get priority drafting. It certainly will get any priority supports it needs from my end as Chief Whip.

It is great to have consensus across the Dáil. It does not always happen. As Deputy Sherlock said, this is really important for a small group of parents who need this vital legislation for themselves and their children. I assure Deputies that I will inform the Minister of the constructive observations made today, especially in respect of section 232, which Deputies Rice and Sherlock both spoke about.

In fairness, the Minister wrote the speech herself. She is very invested in this and I wish to acknowledge that. I also acknowledge the former Minister, Stephen Donnelly, with whom I worked closely in the Department for five years as well as former Senator, Mary Seery Kearney, who put her heart and soul into this work. While he will not be a bit happy, I also wish to acknowledge my adviser sitting in the Public Gallery, Mr. Páraic Gallagher, who worked closely on this with many of the parents in the previous Dáil.

I also know that relevant officials from the Department will have been closely taking notes of all the queries, comments and issues raised tonight as they look to finalise the Bill. I believe we are at that stage. I have set out the progress being made on various fronts on the path to having a robust and operational regulatory framework for assisted human reproduction, AHR. Indeed, completion of the pre-legislative scrutiny report was an important element in the process. Once again, I compliment Deputy Rice for his commitment and passion to getting this over the line.

One of the key recommendations and issues raised by the committee relates to communication and awareness. The Government and I completely agree on the importance of clarity on any new laws that will be introduced and, if applicable, transitional arrangements. Under the terms of the legislation, the AHRRA will produce relevant information documents.

I also know that Members wish to have certainty about when exactly the Bill will be published. There is continued intensive engagement involving the lead Departments and the Office of the Attorney General on a number of complex issues. The outcome of a number of ongoing relevant legal cases will also have a direct bearing on the ability to finalise the Bill. However, I assure Deputies that all involved are fully committed to completing the work required to publish the Bill as soon as it is practical. As one example, a recommendation in the pre-legislative scrutiny report seeks the inclusion of a process to recognise the parentage of Irish citizens living abroad who have children through surrogacy or donor-assisted human reproduction, DAHR. This is being proposed to be included in the Bill, with the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration taking the lead. I know that Deputy Rice and fellow Deputies will appreciate the complexities involved and the challenge on producing appropriate, balanced and coherent legislation. EU member states have been considering the matter of basic mutual recognition of parentage at EU level for many years and agreeing a common approach has proven to be exceptionally challenging, given the complexities involved.

Nevertheless, the Government is determined to find solutions to this. The Minister is determined to find solutions to this and to many other outstanding questions. Intensive work will continue in the new year to advance the health (assisted human reproduction) (amendment) Bill, the commencement of the 2024 Act, and the operational capacity of the AHRRA.

All that remains for me to do is to wish everyone a very happy Christmas. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for all her support to me as Chief Whip over the last ten or 11 months. It has been a baptism of fire, maybe for both of us. It has been a lot of busy days and late nights. It is fitting that on the first day of the new Dáil, I was not Chief Whip at the time, but when the Taoiseach was appointed after that first day both of us took to the floor first and both of us are concluding here tonight. I wish everyone a happy Christmas and especially those in the Public Gallery. I thank all the staff in the Houses who are here late on a Thursday night. It is often known as the graveyard shift but I believe this is one of the most important pieces of legislation on the most important topic that we can debate and it is fitting that it is the last debate this year. Thank you.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will endorse that in a minute but first I will go to the proposer of the motion for his conclusion.

Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle and the Minister of State. I really welcome the remark that many of the recommendations will be included and reflected in the legislation when it is finally published. That is very welcome. I will be glad to report back to the rest of the committee on that. That is great to see. What is missing, and I think the Minister of State would agree, is clarity on the timeline here. When we engaged with the Minister over the summer there was pressure for us to progress our engagement on this issue because the Minister was keen to progress the legislation. As I said, we worked on this report in August and we published it when we came back straight away. This is why I am slightly frustrated with the delay here. We wanted to see the legislation before Christmas and we wanted to see this progressed. It is frustrating that we have not got that clear timeline from the Minister of State today about when the Bill will be published, when it will be enacted, when it will be commenced, when the families directly affected will get the rights that they are arguing for and when the families will get the protections they need. Crucially this is what it is about. It is unfortunate that we go into another year with that uncertainty. This could have been resolved this side of Christmas and it is disappointing that it is not.

A number of Deputies referenced the commencement of section 232 of the 2024 Act. That relates to families who used a known donor in the past, in particular lesbian couples who used a known donor in the past, and them getting recognised and jointly protected. I know people whose kids are now 18 and they still are not protected. These are people who created a family together with a friend who might have been a donor before we had marriage equality. In some cases it was while same-sex activity was still a crime. They created families together, they did it ethically and the State has never recognised them jointly as parents. These are people who brought these kids up together in loving, stable relationships, raised beautiful children and all they are asking for is that they get recognised as their parents.

It is there in law. It is written into the law but it has not been commenced by the Minister. This is something I have asked parliamentary questions about. I know other Deputies have asked parliamentary questions about it. From these parliamentary questions we know that the courts have done their side of the work, that the District Court has updated the rules, that the Circuit Court has updated the rules, and it is now sitting on the Minister's desk waiting for the Minister to sign the Commencement Order. I would ask her to do that before Christmas. At least do that. Commence the one part. The law is already passed and the rules are in place. What she could do now is sign the Commencement Order and give these families the gift of those protections before Christmas for this small cohort of families so that they would have that joint parental right. It would be the start of the journey on this. It would be a really good act if the Minister could commence that because we do know that all the pieces are in place for this and it is just waiting on the Minister to sign the Commencement Order. Saying in her statement that she intends to do it is not enough. I want to know why the Minister has not done it and if she will do that before Christmas. I would like if the Minister of State could bring that back to her.

In her closing statement the Minister of State also referred to the legal cases, and that this may be one of the reasons why we have not seen progress in the last six months. We cannot wait while the cases go through the courts. In the absence of legislation what we will have is more cases before the courts. Families who are deeply frustrated are now taking to the courts to vindicate their rights. We are going to have more cases. The longer the Minister delays the more cases we will have, and the more delays we will have. These cases will advance through the courts. Cases that are in the High Court will be in the Supreme Court and we will wait and we will wait. What the Department and the Minister can do is resolve all of that and they can provide the certainty. We can legislate in this House and families would not be forced to go to the courts. It is at huge personal cost and huge stress for individuals to go to the High Court to try to vindicate their rights to get protections for their family, very basic protections in law, to be regarded as the parents of their own children. We should not be expecting families to do that. It is frustrating when we hear that this is the delay, that the State's failure to pass a law means that now people have had to go to the courts, which is now holding up the passing of the law. When will this end? If we pass the law we can resolve all of that. I have no doubt that if the law is passed those people who are before the courts would withdraw those cases because the legislation will resolve the issues and will provide them with the protections in place.

As I have said a number of times here, I am concerned about the legislative output. I think we have passed fewer Bills in this year than nearly any year since the foundation of the State.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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That is not true.

Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
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I said "nearly". It has been quite a low output-----

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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It was 21 Bills this year and there are 25 going through the Houses. I just want to put that on the record as there is so much misinformation out there.

Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
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How many Bills were passed?

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Twenty-one. Five more are to be signed in this week. So that is 16 with five more to be signed in. I apologise to the Ceann Comhairle for the over and back but I think clarity is important. There are 25 Bills through the Houses. I have given eight sessions between the Dáil and the Seanad on the Mental Health Bill, with 650 amendments. They take time.

Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
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Absolutely, and we had an argument about that because we thought it should have been dealt with at the health committee and that it did not need the floor of the Dáil to do it. All of the legislation could have been progressed. I had a look back over the historical span of the number of Bills passed. In some years in this Oireachtas we had 45, 50, or 60 Bills passed.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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We had committees as well.

Pádraig Rice (Cork South-Central, Social Democrats)
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There is a low level of legislative output and it is frustrating that we have not seen this Bill passed, and other areas. Law reform is needed in lots of other areas. We were talking yesterday about vapes and other areas. There is a need for law reform and we would like to see some of that progressed, including this Bill. As I said, it is crucially important. As Deputy Sherlock said, there is a diversity of families who are affected but there is an area of work already done around LGBT families. We passed the marriage equality referendum over ten years ago. When people went to the polls that day they were voting to provide equality for families, for families to be treated equally, and for full recognition of their families. People around the country are surprised when they meet same-sex couples who have children to see how the law has not solved the issue and that it has not provided them with the family rights other people enjoy. A decade on from marriage equality it is really frustrating that the work has not been done in these Houses and Government Departments to iron out the detail of the law to provide pathways to parentage for same sex couples. Also, as was said, there are other families who have done surrogacy abroad and there are families created in lots of ways in which both parents are not recognised and they have been waiting far too long for this to be resolved. I hope we will not be back here next Christmas still talking about this. I hope next year will be the year we get this resolved and sorted.

We as a committee have engaged constructively on this and will continue to do so. We will make time available at the committee. I would be happy to hold additional sittings if they are needed to progress this legislation and get this sorted once and for all. It is really important we do this, in particular for the children. The recommendations laid out in the report, if accepted, would solve many of the issues and address many of the concerns people have been raising over decades. I welcome that the recommendations have been considered seriously by the Department. As I said in my opening speech, I would like a letter from the Department or the Minister giving the Department’s position on each of the recommendations and as soon as possible for them to give us a clear timeline on the legislation, when it will be published, when it is intended for it to be taken through the Houses and ultimately commenced. That is the key because sometimes we pass laws and never commence them, as we are seeing with the 2024 Act and the section we referenced.

I might be the final speaker before Christmas so I join others in wishing everyone who works in the Houses of Oireachtas a very happy Christmas, as well as all the Members and staff. I thank everybody for all the support over the past year and all they work they have done. I hope people get a good break over Christmas.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you very much, Deputy Rice and many happy returns.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is so very fitting, as pointed out by the Chief Whip, for the parents who are in the Gallery that there is such congeniality from all of us with regard to this particular debate. It is so fitting in a week when we are about to celebrate the birth of a baby. I think there is no greater gift in life, so congratulations.