Dáil debates

Wednesday, 26 November 2025

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

 

5:10 am

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Here we go again. The Government never tires of wasting taxpayers' money. A sum of €750,000 was used to construct 14 steps and a ramp at Deer Park in Mount Merrion. Access to public spaces for people with disabilities is very important, but for €750,000 I was expecting a breathtaking feat of engineering. There is nothing spectacular, however. In fact, it is very ordinary, literally just steps and a ramp. The only breathtaking thing about this is the cost. Three quarters of a million euro was forked out from the public purse. Procurement experts have described this spend as wildly excessive. I describe it as downright insulting to people.

I have raised issues of waste with the Taoiseach time and again, but Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have not learned a single thing from the litany of waste that is now the hallmark of the Government. They are serial wasters of public money. Hundreds of thousands of euro for bike sheds; €1.4 million for a security hut; €500,000 for a perimeter wall; €20 million renting offices that lay empty; and over €100,000 on a scanner for the National Gallery that lay idle for almost a decade. Little wonder then that the PAC's report yesterday pointed to serious and persistent deficiencies in spending oversight from the Department for the arts. This is the case right across Government. The list of waste is as long as your arm. I could go on but I would be here all day.

While the Government pours millions of euro of people's money down the drain, workers and families count every single euro just to get by. This is the same Government that delivered a budget of €9.4 billion that left people worse off and cancelled energy credits as families struggled to light and heat their homes. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael keep the strings of the public purse very tight for working people. They are on the ball there and very diligent but, by God, they are happy for people's cash to be blown at every other turn. There is no oversight, governance or accountability and nobody shouting "Stop". In the grand scheme of the Government's billions, €750,000 might not mean a lot to it, but it would pay the salaries of 20 new special needs assistants or 20 new nurses for a year. Instead, the money is spent on a few steps and a ramp that surely could have been built for a fraction of that cost. It is scandalous. The Government is incapable of dealing with what is clearly a widespread systemic problem. Tá €750,000 caite ar chéimeanna agus rampa. Léiríonn sé sin go bhfuil an Rialtas fós ag cur airgead amú ar nós is cuma leis.

The Government is allowing this waste of public money to happen over and again and is doing nothing about it. I have two questions for the Taoiseach. Does he believe that €750,000 for steps and a ramp represents value for the people's money? Does he now accept that a waste audit across Departments, as called for by Sinn Féin, is now urgently required to get to grips with this constant waste?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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First of all, I do not believe €750,000 is right, proper or appropriate in terms of 14 steps, but it seems to me the scheme that was completed by Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council was not just about 14 steps. Nonetheless, the cost is excessive by any yardstick. The Deputy said Sinn Féin had called for a waste audit. I think Sinn Féin could take the example of Deputy Albert Dolan here in front of me, who has done more than most Deputies in the House to shine a light on public expenditure with his online facility and so on. He is a Deputy who is doing the work Sinn Féin is asking us to do.

Photo of Mark WardMark Ward (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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TikTok.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin is very good at asking and asking but, surely it has a bit of resources and capacity, if it is that concerned about waste-----

Photo of Mairéad FarrellMairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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The Government can legislate.

Photo of Cathy BennettCathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You are the Government. You should know how much is spent-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----other than utilising a particular case, which was bad, to try to just go on the waste thing as a political and electoral exercise.

In terms of the interaction between the NTA and the county council, €750,000 is too much. Accessibility is very important. In that context, accessibility for wheelchair users, cyclists, parents with buggies and so on was the original objective, apparently, of this scheme by the council and the NTA.

More generally, about €360 million of capital funds has been provided for walking and cycling infrastructure in 2025, the vast majority of which was on budget and on time and provided exceptional resources to people. That is the other side of this story. We can pick the one project that is, without question, excessive and difficult to comprehend in terms of costs, but there have been many other projects I have witnessed that have revolutionised active travel in every town, city and county in the country. Thankfully, more funding will be announced today in respect of more active travel in terms of greenways and so forth. Yes, there has to be a rigorous focus on costs - there is no question about that - and on value for money in respect of changes. There is a local authority audit structure to audit what local authorities are doing, and also in respect of the NTA.

I am sure the Deputy is aware, as she has probably spoken to her party's councillors and so on, that this particular project apparently included a new pedestrian-cycle ramp, new granite to upgrade the existing concrete footpaths, construction of a new signalised pedestrian crossing, traffic calming measures, retaining walls and so on, which were all put in. That is a significant list. Again, I do not personally engage in every item of council expenditure, although I think the work that Albert Dolan has done has been very effective in providing material for people to track public expenditure on specific projects. I am sure Sinn Féin can avail of his good work in respect of that.

It is a serious issue if a council exceeds significantly. The original cost was in or around €400,000 and the final cost was €750,000. By any yardstick, that is unacceptable, notwithstanding whatever complexities were involved. Admhaím nach bhfuil sé sin sásúil in aon chor. Bhí an togra faoi stiúir ag Comhairle Contae Dhún Laoghaire agus Ráth an Dúin. Bhí sé ag oibriú leis an NTA ar dtús ach don togra faoi leith seo, is an iomarca caiteachais ar fad é.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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So bad and so chronic is the pattern of waste that even the Government's own Members have to acknowledge it, even if the Taoiseach cannot.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I just have.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is where we are at. If this were a one-off event, that would be one thing, but it is not. This is now part of an established pattern of waste on the Government's watch. It is persistent and is right across Government. It is not simply local authorities; it is right at the heart of the Government. To add insult to injury, the Government that tolerates, allows and is asleep at the wheel while vast sums of public moneys are wasted is the same Government that is very vigilant, mean and tight when it comes to working people.

I ask again, as he is the Taoiseach and not I, if he will instigate a waste audit right across Government. That is what is required. Or will he simply allow the people's money to be wasted again and again and again?

5:20 am

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister, Deputy Chambers, has already introduced more robust and tighter procedures in the area of public spending. On the other hand, the Deputy is saying we are very mean and so on, we are being criticised for overspending-----

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Wasting.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----notwithstanding her desire that we spend billions more.

Photo of Louise O'ReillyLouise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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We do not mean to the vultures. We mean working people.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy wants us to spend billions more than we allocated in the budget. Ireland's economy is one of the fastest growing economies globally. The stewardship of this economy has been good by this Government and by the previous Government despite Covid-----

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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You got lucky.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----despite Brexit, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the energy crisis that followed and the tariffs emanating from the United States. This has been a competent Government with regard to the economic management of this country.

Photo of Conor McGuinnessConor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Second time lucky Taoiseach.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The policies we have pursued are far superior to anything Sinn Féin has produced on the economic front over the past number of years.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no question about that. We have no truck with any waste in public expenditure-----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, you do.

Photo of Cathy BennettCathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, you do. That is why Albert-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please, Deputies.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and we will deal with it at every layer of Government. Sinn Féin has councillors on that council. Were its councillors with every other councillor tracking it? It is not good enough that there should be that level of expenditure, but we will deal with it.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I welcome a group of transition year students who are with me today into the Gallery. They are aspiring TDs and are very welcome. This Government is budgeting like there is no tomorrow. It seems that prudent Paschal was actually profligate Paschal. Mr. Donohoe goes to Washington and leaves behind an overspend climbing towards €4 billion in 2025. In his second week on the job, the Tánaiste has had a rap on the knuckles from the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. IFAC has once again pointed out what is plain for all to see. The Government’s budget is a work of fiction. The Taoiseach has just said that the Government is competent on the economy, but it does not even have a fiscal plan beyond next year. Were the Taoiseach a CEO coming before a board of directors, it is frankly hard to see how he would be allowed to continue in his role.

He castigates the Opposition for calling for investment, and Government spokespersons in the media today painted a picture of perfect prudence. He claims to be balancing the need to run a society as well as the economy. That is right. Of course he should. However, what has the Taoiseach got to show for the running of society? There are more than 5,000 children homeless, unaffordable rents and house prices, a creaking health service and massive under resourcing of public services like special education for children, and our Defence Forces. Those are just two examples. As my colleague Deputy Sherlock said today on RTÉ, it is not just what you spend, it is how you spend it. The Government's failure to invest in sustainable infrastructure leaves people’s living standards at the mercy of the market. That is the Taoiseach's philosophy to governing too. For example, we train world-class healthcare workers and then lose them to emigration. More than 3,500 HSE jobs are vacant. There are much-needed therapist roles vacant across the country. Meanwhile, the Government will spend €750 million on agency staff this year. Is that prudent?

The housing disaster is the civil rights issue for the generation of TY students with us today, yet the Government refuses to unleash the power of the State to build. Last year, councils and approved housing bodies built barely 300 social homes, but the State has spent €2 billion buying homes on the market – a model that costs 20% more than direct build. It is siphoning public money into the bank accounts of private developers, pricing ordinary buyers out of the process. Is that prudent?

Was the budget giveaway to burger barons and big builders really prudent? It is a subsidy for the wealthiest in society with no evidence it will save a single job, and the new finance Minister's fingerprints are all over it. IFAC’s report is a damning indictment of the Government's economic judgment. It provides further evidence of an abject failure to plan for the future. Will we see anything resembling a credible plan by the end of this year?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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A credible which?

Photo of Gerald NashGerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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A medium-term framework.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, they will. I will say on the IFAC criticisms that you have had both sides. I also welcome the transition year students. By the way, the Deputy's party was notified by email at 2.30 p.m. on Friday that I would not be here yesterday. There was maybe a bit of inadvertent misleading of the House yesterday but we will pass over that.

IFAC did a research note recently on the impact of US tariffs and other policy changes that might affect corporation tax receipts. There is a downside to it. We know about the exceptional reliance on corporation tax, but that is accepted. Equally, IFAC stated in that note that while there was a surge in pharma exports due to the tariffs at the beginning of the year, there has also been a permanent increase in activity here. Ireland is still a key manufacturing hub for ingredients in popular weight-loss drugs. They will grow strongly. Global sales will reach 62 billion in 2030. The patents do not expire until 2036 or 2037. The global minimum tax pillar 2 will generate extra top-up revenues. The point I am making is that we need downside and upside scenarios in economic planning. Invariably, if it is a downside, IFAC has to do that as that is its job. However, it is equally valid to say you need upside scenario planning as well in future forecasting and planning. That does not tend to happen. I am saying that as a criticism of Government as well as the Government tends to go on the downside. That is acceptable. I have no issue other than to say that we should look at the other side of the equation as well. There is also the determination of expenditure rules. Future expenditure rules in my view should be credible and reflect growth of the real economy and inflation rates. Perhaps the fiscal target of 5% at the beginning of the previous Government did not adequately reflect real economic and inflation growth. What happened subsequently was that budgets went ahead of the 5%. When you factor in population growth in particular and the consequential pressures on services you begin to see how expenditure rose over that fiscal rule. Of course, we will be submitting a medium-term fiscal plan to Europe as is required, but we have to get it right. Deputy Bacik will be the first Deputy in here at next year's budget or the budget afterwards saying that we should have spent more on this or that. I want to make sure we have a medium-term fiscal rule with the Minister for Finance and Deputy Canney and the Independents that reflects reality, population growth and potential expenditures, and once we agree it to stay within those limits. The rule has to be realistic in the context of real economic growth and inflation forecasts and we are working on that. The IMF has done some work on this in respect of Ireland.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I was genuinely taken by surprise yesterday when the Taoiseach was not here. However, I said it was a nice surprise to see the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, taking his place.

I stand over what I say. Prudence is not being miserly. It is spending responsibly. It is about responsible spending. We are told that one of the Tánaiste's first meetings last week as the new Minister for Finance was with IFAC. The question is if he learned anything from this. What we have seen are persistent delays in producing a medium-term spending framework. The Taoiseach has said, as has the Tánaiste, that it will be produced by the end of this year, I think. The Taoiseach might clarify that. However, there has been a huge delay because that was supposed to happen after the last election. We are also seeing a dipping into windfall corporation tax jackpots to lavish cash on burger barons and big builders. The Labour Party stood against that VAT cut. We stood against a narrowing of the tax base. We supported Government on the legislation setting up rainy day funds. We cannot be accused of being profligate, but we are asking the Government to be more prudent.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have announced a €270 billion national development plan. That is the fundamental pillar of this Government, and we have already allocated the funding. Today a transport sectoral plan will be published which will be significant for roads, rail and bus developments that will happen as a result of that. We will have a children and disabilities sectoral development plan. We will have a health sectoral development plan that puts flesh on the bone of real projects that will happen. It will be transformative. It is not just investment. It is also reform led by the Department of public expenditure and Jack Chambers in respect of the infrastructure division and getting infrastructure done faster. If we could have fewer objections and judicial reviews, we might achieve that. The Deputy spoke about a €300 million VAT reduction for construction and apartments.

If we get more apartments built, we will get a net increase in revenue out of it, not a reduction. We do need more apartments. There is no question about that. We are not building enough of them. That is why the VAT reduction in the budget was introduced, along with all the other measures we have done on housing, including rental reform of the RPZs, which was recommended by the Housing Commission, to make sure we will get accommodation and private sector and public sector investment in housing to get the number of houses and apartments we need built.

5:30 am

Photo of Holly CairnsHolly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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On Monday, a man with an axe attacked a woman in Leixlip in her home before setting it on fire. The man, her former partner, was out on bail for previously assaulting her when he broke in and attacked her. She managed to escape and is now being treated for serious injuries in hospital. Yesterday morning, there was another vicious attack. A woman who answered her front door in Dublin was doused in petrol and set alight. She is also now in a critical condition and being treated in hospital. These attacks occurred less than 24 hours apart. Their depravity has shocked the country. Both women were attacked in their own homes, where they should have been safest.

They are not the only ones. Every day, all over the country, women endure violence, harassment, assaults and intimidation. Some of them will die because of it. Last week, Stella Gallagher was killed in Cork. At her funeral mass yesterday, her brother-in-law said Ms Gallagher had an inbuilt generosity and was always doing things for others.

These are the stories of just three women in the news on the week of International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, one of whom is now dead. If I were to attend any court in any part of the country on any day of the week, I would find more brutality and more tragedy for women who should be leading full and happy lives. There are so many women out there who spend every day trying to make themselves small, invisible even, who are desperate not to say the wrong thing in the wrong tone of voice or with the wrong expression, all so they do not set him off, do not make him angry, do not make him upset. These are women who contribute so much to their families, friends and communities and who are routinely and relentlessly terrorised in their own homes. They are women whose lives are being ruined by controlling, abusive and violent men.

Violence against women is not a women's problem; violence against women is a men's problem. The common denominator when women are attacked is invariably men. This is an issue that will never be fully addressed until more men join the fight against it and call out and report family, friends, colleagues and strangers who belittle, intimidate or insult women.

I raised violence against women here yesterday but I am raising it again today because it is a daily nightmare for tens of thousands of women out there and I was not happy with the answers I received yesterday to my questions. I asked, if this Government really has a zero-tolerance approach to this issue, how does it square that with nine counties not having a refuge space? When will refuge spaces be provided in every county? That is what I asked and I did not get an answer. I also asked if the Government would ensure that women's counselling notes could not be weaponised any more in sexual assault and rape trials. I did not get an answer. Will the Taoiseach answer those questions now?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I could not agree more in terms of the depraved and shocking violence against women in our society on an ongoing basis. It is truly shocking. This is despite the fact that the Government has taken unprecedented actions legislatively to deal with this, including the establishment of an agency, Cuan, which is doing good work. The previous Government established that to deal with domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. About €80 million has been allocated to support Cuan and services working to tackle domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. That is an increase of €12 million year on year.

However, that on its own will not solve what are more fundamental issues within society itself. The Government has a zero tolerance attitude to this, and we are supporting quite a number of community organisations that support victims and survivors. We will accelerate the delivery of additional refuge spaces and safe accommodation while also providing stronger supports. There is funding for additional safe spaces, with a commitment to provide 282 safe spaces by the end of 2026. I am sure the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and Cuan can provide the Deputy with their timelines for the various centres that need to get done and their development. The Minister is also introducing significant legislative change to allow for the removal of guardianship rights from a person who has been convicted of killing their intimate partner under the proposed Guardianship of Infants (Amendment) Bill and has advanced provisions to limit the disclosure of counselling records in rape and sexual assault cases under the proposed criminal law and civil law Bill 2025. That was agreed some weeks ago by Cabinet. The Minister secured Government approval on 21 October to progress the criminal law (sexual offences, domestic violence and international instruments) Bill. That includes measures to allow perpetrators of domestic violence to be included on a new register run by the courts and strengthen the law on sexual consent. Convictions will be published online by the Courts Service under a specific heading of domestic violence judgment register. This will help people who are in a relationship or considering a relationship with a person to discover whether the person has a history of serious domestic violence convictions. Victims will be required to provide consent before the convicted abuser can be named on the public register. The Minister secured Cabinet approval for the drafting of legislation to address the disclosure of counselling records in sexual offences criminal trials. This will amend the current statutory framework to ensure that judicial oversight governs the disclosure of such records-----

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Nobody agrees with that Bill.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and that disclosure takes place only when, in the court's opinion, it is necessary to avoid an unfair trial. Drafting is at an advanced stage and is continuing at pace. The Minister will also examine other steps, including additional adjustments to legislation, in order to further restrict the disclosure of counselling records and is consulting with the relevant stakeholders in that regard.

Photo of Holly CairnsHolly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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What the Minister proposes to bring forward in relation to people's counselling notes is basically a new version of the status quo. It is that people's counselling notes can be used against them in court. I feel the need to very clearly break this down. We know that the court process retraumatises victims of sexual assault and rape. We know that the percentage of women who get justice for rape is absolutely minuscule as a result of that because people do not want to go to court. What is another way of looking at that? The percentage of people who are convicted is minuscule. That results in people being quite likely to get away with raping somebody. That is the reality. Why is the process traumatising? Let us look at it. One thing is your counselling notes being used against you in a trial. It is despicable. There is one very clear thing this Government could do to try to help the process, to try to make it less hostile towards victims, and that is an outright ban on people's counselling notes being used in court. Will the Government reconsider this?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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To be fair to the Minister, he is advancing and working at pace in respect of legislation on the disclosure of counselling-----

Photo of Holly CairnsHolly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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It would still be brought into-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Please, Deputy, let the Minister answer.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt the Deputy. Maybe she should engage with the Minister-----

Photo of Holly CairnsHolly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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I did.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----in an informed and evidence-based way. The Minister will be very open with Opposition spokespeople in dealing with this in the context of what is possible and what is not possible. The Government's view is very strongly supportive of reducing significantly, and seeing how far we can go-----

Photo of Holly CairnsHolly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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But still allowing it in courts.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----in avoiding, the use of counselling notes against victims-----

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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We do not want it reduced; we want it outlawed.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and in terms of other measures the Minister is prepared to consider. More fundamental, however, than all the legislation in the world is a change of culture and approach within society itself.

Photo of Holly CairnsHolly Cairns (Cork South-West, Social Democrats)
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This is a part of that.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know the Deputy's job is to criticise the Government and so on, but there are more fundamental issues at stake in terms of violence against women. The Minister has done some research and so on. Universal access to violent pornography, for example, is now emerging as a factor in the level of violence that has been perpetrated against women.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That has been the case for a long time.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, a Thaoisigh. There will have to be further-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need to deal with this collectively.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Maybe you should protect-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Deputy Roderic O'Gorman is next.

Photo of Roderic O'GormanRoderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I want to raise the issue of the growing levels of hate in Irish society and what steps the Taoiseach's Government can take to address it. This is the hate that led to a deliberate arson attempt on an IPAS facility where women and children were living.

It is the hate that compelled young men to attack two drag queens on the street of the Taoiseach's own city a few weeks ago and which allowed some passers-by to applaud. It is the hate that motivated a group of people to surround a car in Citywest and scream racist abuse at a Ukrainian family, including young children, inside. This is the hate that drove two men to beat another man to death in west Dublin because he was from a different country.

These are no longer isolated incidents. They represent a pattern of targeting vulnerable groups, vulnerable people and people who can be easily scapegoated. Our society has a growing problem with hate. It is not organic. It is not representative of real people. As well as targeting certain groups, it is now often targeting and impinging on our democratic structures. This is beyond Government and Opposition. Every Deputy listening to me here sees the level of hate directed against them online and, too often, in person. The home and family of the Tánaiste have been threatened. The leader of the Opposition's canvassing team was attacked. I welcome the announcement of the investigation by Coimisiún na Meán into X, but I fear that once its conclusions have been reached, and the matter has been litigated in the Irish courts and then the European courts, years will have passed during which the toxicity from bad faith actors will have continued to target minorities and undermine our democratic norms.

The algorithms that drive traffic across social media platforms and deposit videos featuring extreme content in people's feeds are incredibly powerful tools. The inadequacy of the regulation of these algorithms and, in particular, the failure to compel platforms to have these algorithms set at a default off-position have been widely identified by those campaigning for reform in the area as a key driver of hate. Does the Taoiseach accept that there is a risk to social cohesion and to our democratic norms from the unchecked online lies and hate? Does he agree with me that that risk is actually growing? If so, does the Government propose to do more and, in particular, re-examine the adequacy of the regulation of the online algorithms that drive so much of this hatred across platforms?

5:40 am

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I agree with him. There is a serious issue facing society which will undermine the cohesion of society in terms of the level of hate out there and the level of hate that is articulated online and, worse, in terms of the actual murder of people and physical attacks, as the Deputy mentioned, on two drag queens in Cork recently, but also the murder of a person because he was from another country - I spoke to the minister from that country at the time in respect of that murder - and in terms of various other attacks. Recently, I met a group of young people who were working with my Department in respect of the child poverty programme. It was a group of teenagers, Irish citizens with different ethnic backgrounds. They spoke about the fear of going into town. In one case, a guy said to me his younger sister was chased home from school because of their ethnic background. There is a very real issue here.

I recently spoke to people involved in the Dublin city business initiative providing supports for people in different communities. A number of employers instanced to me the number very serious assaults on employees because of their ethnic background. These are not isolated cases any more. I believe it is very serious. I met the church leaders recently, all the interfaith groups, and the common issue was the fear of attack. The Indian community suffered significant harassment recently. There is fear there. This is something we did not have to deal with to this extent five years ago. It is above party politics.

I fully agree with the Deputy that the question of the algorithms is an issue. Toxicity is directed at quite a number of politicians. The Deputy was a victim of quite a bit of that when he was a Minister. The Garda does exceptional work in helping politicians and helping people to deal with such attacks. The gardaí involved are very professional and have a great sense of perspective in terms of the various types of threats and incidents that happen. It is at a level that I have never experienced in my life, in terms of the approach to the political world, and it is very serious.

As the Deputy will recall, with the hate crime Act we bought it last year, the last Government got into very choppy waters within the House politically. However, we got it through and the penalties have been substantially increased for hate crimes relating to ethnicity, sexual orientation or whatever.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I call Deputy O'Gorman.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was a time in the last Dáil when there was a preponderance of opinion that suggested-----

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We are very far behind.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----that hate crime legislation was not needed. We have a real problem.

Photo of Roderic O'GormanRoderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply and for his recognition of the threat and fear that have been generated in Irish society. It is important to recognise the risks to the democratic norms as well. During the recent presidential election, there was an AI-generated fake video apparently showing Catherine Connolly pulling out of the campaign and there were, of course, the awful slanders that were put out about Jim Gavin. They were seen 700,000 times before Mr. Gavin got to respond. No amount of fact-checking will ever put that genie back into the bottle again. Last year, Coimisiún na Meán published its draft code of conduct which included a regulation of the algorithms that direct the social media platforms. However, when the finalised version was published later in the year, they were omitted. I ask that the Government look at that again because I truly believe that if we are serious about tackling this epidemic of hate in our society that is posing a risk to vulnerable people and to democratic norms, we have to tackle those algorithms.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I certainly will revert to the Government in respect of that and will also ask the relevant Ministers to engage with Coimisiún na Meán on this. It is hate across different sectors. What happened to Citywest was appalling, as was the deliberate attempt to burn out a family in Drogheda. These are new thresholds that are being crossed. Children could have been killed. It was a very lucky escape for children and a family. Someone deliberately tried to burn them, essentially. We have to be extremely conscious of what is happening. In Citywest, the principal of a school spoke afterwards about the impact on children going to school the following day, or not going to school, because of the anxiety generated as a result of the aggression, hostility and hate articulated towards them.