Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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In the week when the two-week COP30 summit started without, regrettably, the involvement of the USA, it is vital that we remain steadfast and committed to and that we redouble our efforts to hit our climate targets.

The Joint Committee on Climate, the Environment and Energy has been looking at this topic. In that context, I want to raise the issue of decarbonising home heating. Perhaps the most challenging barrier that we see is the need to install 400,000 heat pumps in existing homes by 2030. This is a huge challenge, especially in light of the disruption and costs involved in fitting heat pumps in older and, in particular, rural homes. The grants and the various VAT changes relating to heat pumps have been in place since 2021, but we are still way off what we need to hit by 2030. The reality is that for many homeowners, it is not practical to replace a working oil or gas boiler with a heat pump, particularly when it comes to the need for a sealed house. We can look to our counterparts in Europe to see what we can do to make heat pumps more attractive. Ultimately, however, we may have to face the reality that it is simply not economically feasible to roll out heat pumps to our older housing stock. As a result, we may need a realistic alternative.

District heating is another key pillar that we need to accelerate in line with the programme for Government. In the context of the Dublin district heating system, with which I was familiar as a city councillor, to use heat from the waste energy in Poolbeg to serve the Docklands, 90% of the infrastructure has been in place for years but the scheme has never been activated. District heating is capital intensive and the payback is long, so strong Government support is needed, particularly early doors, at the feasibility stage. The SEAI raised the need for some changes in a review in 2024, which I welcome. District heating is a good win for the country. We can leverage waste heat from data centres, dare I say it, and use waste to energy and anaerobic digestion. If done properly, a lot of it involves low-carbon heating. It would be very positive if we could use it. The waste energy in Poolbeg is just waiting to be used.

On liquid fuels, 400,000 households have liquid fuel delivered to their homes. We need to make sure they are in the net for decarbonisation. Introducing biofuels is part of the mix, but what is the long-term solution for those 400,000 homes, many of which are in rural areas and which have fuel delivered by trucks to their homes?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat for raising this matter. I thank the Deputy for the work he is doing on the Oireachtas committee and as our party spokesperson in the area of climate action. He triggered a number of thoughts on my part in relation to this. The overriding priority has to be that the perfect is not the enemy of the good when it comes to homeowners being supported. The Government and I consider the current system to be too rigid in certain areas. There are many people who want to do more in relation to making their homes warmer, cheaper to heat and more environmentally friendly. However, there can be logistical and practical considerations, including the age of the housing stock and the age and well-being of homeowners. We need to take that on board. I will ensure that this matter is discussed and considered by the Government. I welcome the work of the Oireachtas committee as to how we can be more flexible and innovative in how we use what is a significant level of public investment in trying to put in place grant schemes and incentives to help people make the transition. There might be a little too much ideology or perfection as opposed to pragmatism in relation to some of these schemes. That is my starting point.

I welcome the fact the Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment, our colleague the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, yesterday launched his Department's sectoral capital plan under the national development plan. The encouraging news, at a time when COP is ongoing, is that this provides for a total capital funding envelope under the national development plan of €5.64 billion in investment in energy, climate and our circular economy sectors over the next five years, together with planned electricity grid investments that will be leveraged by a separate equity investment of €3.5 billion. That is a significant scale-up in investment in climate, in energy and in our circular economy.

A key priority in the sectoral plan and for the Government will be to make sure that gets channelled into investment in energy efficiency programmes. In fact, the largest single programme in the plan, up to €3.7 billion of the €5.6 billion, will be invested in residential energy efficiency programmes through the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. I know, because they write to me, that there can sometimes be a frustration from our constituents and the public about, perhaps, the length of time or the rigidity involved. I want them to know that the largest investment in that Department's capital plan now, over €3.7 billion, is specifically for how we help to upgrade, from an energy efficiency point of view, homes in our country.

Considering that is a fact, it is now time to answer the questions that Deputy Ó Muirí has asked in terms of how we can perhaps be more pragmatic or innovative in relation to that and, indeed, in respect of how we target the homes that are more dispersed. This is a relatively small island with a relatively small population, although there is very fast population growth. We have a very dispersed population, and that poses significant challenges. I will ask both the Minister and the SEAI to consider the proposals, and perhaps the Oireachtas committee could also give further consideration to this.

Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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As the Tánaiste says, the enemy of the good is the best. There is a risk that we will go down that road. The barriers are not insurmountable but they require a bit of thought and some practical, sensible solutions to build on what has been done already. When it comes to climate work, what often happens is that affordability for the punter seems to play second fiddle to the work that is being done. I am not denigrating the work that is being done, but we have to keep an awareness of affordability for the punters out there if we are going to try to bring them with us on this journey.

The unit price of fossil fuel gas today is €50 per megawatt hour plus a carbon tax of €20, which brings it to €70 per megawatt hour overall. Biomethane is €120 to €220 per megawatt hour. There is a huge difference in the cost, and we just need to square that up. Nobody wants to retain fossil fuels, least of all me. We just need to be straight up with people that if we are going to do biomethane, there will be a cost associated with that. Let us be upfront about it. Let us try to find ways for people to be efficient, to come on the journey with us, but let us not kid ourselves that there are no economic implications. We need to do it but we need to make sure it is affordable for the punters. That is how we will bring them with us.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is entirely correct. People are fundamentally good, and they fundamentally want to do what is good for them, their families, their kids, the next generation and their communities. Everybody wants clean air. Everybody wants a better environment. Everybody wants a better climate. We instinctively want to pass on our planet to the next generation in better shape than we inherited it. That is how people work,. Government and State schemes need to comprehend that as well.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Deputy is correct that there are people who want to make changes in how they live, how their home is heated and how they operate their farm, perhaps, but who still worry or who find that there are barriers in relation to that. As a Government, we have put our money were our mouth is, with a very significant increase in funding for energy efficiency schemes for homes, to use the example the Deputy has given. The challenge we face is to make sure that this is matched by a flexibility, rather than a rigidity, and the understanding, as the Deputy rightly says, that there is an affordability issue for many people, who are perhaps watching this today. They will say, “I would love to change the car to an EV” or “I would love to do the retrofitting but I am worried about affordability.” We are very conscious of that, and we intend to take steps.

It is not about lecturing people on climate. They do not need to be lectured. They understand it. They get it. They need to be supported in making the transition. That is in all our interests.