Dáil debates

Wednesday, 31 May 2023

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

 

11:52 am

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A new report into familicide and domestic homicides in Ireland has issued its recommendations today. They include establishing a domestic and family violence death review process. This report is historic, and I commend all those who ensured that this groundbreaking work took place. It was secured following tireless campaigning from families who have been affected by this devastating violence. It is the culmination of many years of work by the late Norah Gibbons, whom we remember, and Maura Butler, as chairs of the team that produced the report, and I commend both women. The report came after determined advocacy from those working within the sector, who were determined to see this moment finally come and to ensure that no other family would feel the same agony to which they have been subjected.

Familicide is an utterly devastating crime. This devastating violence cuts through families in the most cruel way. Families across Ireland live in its shadow as they struggle to comprehend the magnitude of their loss. The truth is that this State has been an outlier for too long in how it has failed to take a robust approach to addressing such crimes. The report recommends establishing the domestic and family violence death review process. It recommends that a national database be established for reporting on violent family deaths. It also recommends a new agency for domestic, sexual and gender-based violence as well as better training for people supporting families affected. Importantly, it also recommends that practical supports be put in place for families in the immediate aftermath of a violent death and in the longer term.

I welcome every single one of these important recommendations. It is crucial that they are now enacted without delay in order that real and meaningful change is delivered. Families have waited for so long already for these recommendations to come to light. This groundbreaking report cannot be allowed to gather dust on a shelf or be siphoned off to one Department. We need to see urgency, a clear plan and a timeline for action. That means an all-of-government approach. In the North, domestic violence homicide reviews have been in place for some time now, so the Government might usefully look at what has worked well in the North and what can be improved in order that families get the very best support possible.

Tá an iomarca teaghlach scriosta de bharr finemharaithe. Molaim a bhfeachtas. Níor staon siad dá n-iarrachtaí ag an Rialtas chun córais chearta, láidre a chur i bhfeidhm chun dul i ngleic leis na coireanna uafásacha seo. Tá an tuarascáil ar an bhforéigean seo foilsithe agus tá gealltanais shoiléire ag teastáil ó na teaghlaigh seo go dtiocfaidh athrú ar an gcóras. The Government has published this report. When will the recommendations become reality? Will the Government ensure that this is implemented urgently in order that families can get the support they need without any further delay?

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy McDonald for raising what is an exceptionally sensitive and important report into the most difficult of circumstances possible. When the Minister, Deputy Harris, was briefing the Government on this report yesterday morning, it reminded me, and I am sure it has reminded all of us, that there are a set of tragic circumstances that I think are beyond the ability of most of us even to imagine. We can only recognise the trauma and then the bravery of many who have to live with the consequences of such death and violence.

I join Deputy McDonald in recognising the role of families who have engaged in this process in such a brave and dignified way. Their voices were critical to the work that has now been carried out and to the publication of what is a very substantial report. I wish also to refer to and to recognise the former Minister for Justice, our colleague Deputy Flanagan, who responded to this tragic and complex phenomenon by commissioning this report and by putting in place the process the Dáil is now raising.

I will deal with the two issues Deputy McDonald raised and her important point that this matter is so important that it transcends the Department of Justice. She asked how we will look to move this matter forward. We will do so now by the establishment of a number of groups that we believe will offer a cohesive and effective way of dealing with such tragedies, first in trying to prevent them from happening and, second, when they do happen, on the saddest of occasions, in trying to see what we can do as a State to respond to those who have survived familicide.

What will we do? In line with the report's recommendations, three groups will be established. First, there will be an interdepartmental group. It will be interdepartmental because, as the Deputy rightly said, this is such an important matter. It goes beyond the Department of Justice. We recognise the roles of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, the HSE and the Department of Education in regard to it. Second, we want to set up an advisory group made up of representatives of the NGOs and other stakeholders who have built up such expertise and insight into this tragic issue. Finally, and most appropriately, we will put in place an advisory group made up of the families of victims to hear their voices and views on how we should respond to deaths the circumstances of which are beyond the ability of many of us to imagine. We have a duty to respond to them.

Coming out of all that, we will consider how to implement the recommendations of the report. I have no doubt at all that when the groups are established, we will prioritise actions and lay out how the recommendations will be implemented. From having heard the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris, speak about this matter yesterday, I have little doubt that we will move to priority actions and to their implementation once the groups are established.

I acknowledge there is already much work under way that tries to respond to the loss of life in the terrible circumstances under discussion. Work on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is under way in schools and through the provision of additional training and expertise. There is new work under way on the setting up of refuges and on determining how we can provide support to those fleeing the most difficult and desperate of circumstances. I join the Deputy in recognising the sensitivity of this matter. She can be assured that the Government will do all it can to respond to the recommendations issued in yesterday's substantial and important report.

12:02 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for that response. He has rightly described familicide and violence of that nature as tragic. It is certainly evident on witnessing the absolute bewilderment of a survivor of this violence. In this regard, I am thinking of Kathleen Chada. When I first met her, she told the story of losing her two boys. How to make sense of that is beyond any of us, I am sure. What families tell us is that they experience not just the trauma of a tragedy but also that of a crime. These are crimes as well. In many cases, families feel almost like onlookers or bystanders in their own heartbreaking chaos and tragedy, and they are met with a system that is not fully sympathetic. It certainly is not organised around supporting the families and, crucially, learning from the events. All in the system need to learn the red flags, signals and dangers because the objective has to be to try to prevent these awful crimes.

The Minister has described the groups to be established. Which member of the Cabinet will drive this work? Will it fall to the Taoiseach?

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is right in being very clear in calling out crimes that are the subject of such trauma and sorrow. Like the Deputy, when I see the reports of the crimes and particularly the funerals and those mourning the loss of life because of the crimes, I find it difficult to comprehend. My human response is to look away briefly, particularly if the loss of life of children is involved. We are all aware of recent crimes and tragedies that have involved children. The role of the State is so critical because we have a duty not to look away. We have a duty to engage and give support.

I respectfully differ from Deputy McDonald, who has raised such an important issue, regarding her reference to a lack of sympathy. Sympathy is always present when we are confronted with these circumstances. Again, however, I recognise that we need to do better as a state and society in preventing these crimes and, where they occur, dealing with their consequences in the most humane way possible.

I expect it will be the Minister for Justice who will take the lead on this initiative, given that the report originated in his Department, but I assure the Deputy that everybody who is aware of this report and was briefed on it yesterday will play their role in implementing its recommendations.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I join colleagues in welcoming the publication of this landmark report into familicide. I commend Ms Maura Butler and her colleagues on it. I express my sympathy and that of my Labour colleagues to all those families affected by this dreadful phenomenon.

An féidir leis an Aire a admháil gur botún a bhí ann? Can he admit that the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage made a mistake in failing to extend the temporary no-fault eviction ban? Can the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform admit that lifting the ban without evidence for doing so was in fact misguided and that the risk taken in doing so without evidence and without providing a safety net for renters has not paid off, the result being that we are now seeing the realisation of the worst-case scenario?

Earlier we debated homeownership and how to achieve home security for families and households; however, by lifting the eviction ban the Government signalled to renters that they were on their own when it comes to housing security. There was no safety net or contingency plan for the thousands of renters who now risk entering homelessness through no fault of their own. They are in a real rental nightmare. I am thinking of families like those in my own constituency – parents who are facing eviction and desperately seeking a new home but who cannot tell their children they will very soon be losing their homes until they get through the State examinations.

These families in my constituency are not alone. The latest figures, published by the Residential Tenancies Board just yesterday, record an increase in eviction notices. We now know that between January and March this year, 4,753 notices to quit were issued. The vast majority of these pertained to no-fault evictions. Families and individuals are being evicted in their droves, not because they have failed to pay rent or have engaged in antisocial behaviour but because their homes are commodified for a market that does not care for their welfare. Indeed, it is not the role of the market, nor that of private landlords, to keep people in housing security; it is the role of the State and the Government to provide people with security in their homes. The Government has failed to do this.

In 2021, we in Labour introduced a renters' rights Bill. During the debate on that Bill, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, committed to examining the proposals in it. One was to restrict no-fault evictions. This modest measure is treated or described as extreme in this country. It is not often that we in Labour have cause to commend the Tory Party across the pond, but the Minister may have seen that the British housing secretary, Mr. Michael Gove, recently unveiled legislation to end no-fault evictions there, namely the Tories' Renters (Reform) Bill. As even the Tories know, it is not radical to suggest that families should not lose their homes through no fault of their own. If the Tories can take the risk, the Irish Government should be similarly brave. Will it adopt our renters' rights Bill or at least match the ambition of the British Conservative Party and adopt policies to end no-fault evictions? Does the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform accept that successive homelessness and eviction data published since the end of March have shown that the Government was wrong to lift the ban? Will he accept our call to at least reinstate a temporary ban until homelessness rates reduce for four consecutive months?

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for again raising what everybody in this House knows is such an important matter. I said previously that the decision to end the eviction moratorium was one of the most difficult and complex I have ever been involved in as a member of the Cabinet, but I am acutely aware and can see in my constituency that whatever difficulty was involved in making the decision was minor by comparison with the difficulty some encounter and are encountering due to the consequences of the decision. I am well aware, before the State exams begin next week, of how deeply sensitive the matter is for parents who are worried about where they and their families will be living later in the year. I am also aware of all those who have been affected by the consequences of the decision during the year. Even at this point, however, it is still important to emphasise the rationale for the introduction of the moratorium and why the Government believes, on balance, that it was right to bring it to an end.

It was brought in during an exceptionally difficult period as we approached Christmas and beyond when the Government knew that further steps needed to be taken to strengthen emergency accommodation and make more housing available across what could have been an even more difficult period for many renters.

It was our view, having considered the issue, that the moratorium's extension would have had two consequences. First, it would have led to even fewer people deciding to become landlords in our society in the years ahead. Second, ending the moratorium at a different time would have created the risk of even more renters, including families, being affected by the loss of rental accommodation. It is for these reasons, on balance, that we believed it was the right, but we accept difficult, decision to make.

I join the Deputy in saying that it is not the role of the private sector solely to provide rental accommodation. That is why we have made funding available to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and our local authorities to provide additional housing. The figures need to be emphasised: the Government is committed to delivering 11,800 social housing units this year; resources have been committed to putting in place more leased units; and steps are being taken to support approved housing bodies in providing more accommodation. The new accommodation that is being opened by Dublin City Council on Dominick Street in my constituency and the new accommodation that is being provided near Collins Barracks by approved housing bodies show that the Government is doing anything but leaving the provision of rental and social accommodation to the private market. It is a case of an active State meeting the needs of those who require support while knowing we always need to do more.

12:12 pm

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his response, but the figures he has provided are cold comfort to the more than 4,700 people who received notices to quit between January and March. The State exams are beginning next week and we all wish those sitting their junior and leaving certificate exams the best, but it is a particularly difficult time for the parents of children who are sitting those exams who are among the more than 4,700 people who have received notices to quit and, therefore, lack housing security. Last Friday's homelessness data showed that more than 12,000 people, including more than 3,500 children, are in homelessness. We know these official figures mask the number of hidden homeless, for example, those couch surfing or bunking in with relatives. It is simply not good enough for families and their children who are sitting State exams that we have this level of housing insecurity as a direct result of a Government decision to lift a no fault eviction ban that was providing much-needed housing security to thousands of renters. I appeal to the Minister to adopt Labour's Residential Tenancies (Tenants' Rights) Bill 2021.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Respectfully, the maintenance of the moratorium on evictions in the rental sector ran the great risk over time of leading to even fewer rental properties being available.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is British Tory Party thinking.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Prolonging the eviction ban also ran the risk of even greater difficulty arising when it ended. That is the reason the Government made what we accept was a difficult decision, one that has been the subject of much explanation in the House and debate elsewhere.

I wish to challenge Deputy Bacik on one point. She stated that our provision of 11,800 social homes, which is our ambition for this year after delivering against our social housing targets last year, was cold comfort to those who might not be able to access that accommodation. I accept that is the case. I accept that there are more people who need support, which is why the Government is putting funding into providing that support but for those who are accessing these new homes and have the opportunity to live in them, their provision is anything but cold comfort. I have seen that at first-hand, with families moving into accommodation that has been funded either directly via the State through Dublin City Council or through approved housing bodies. This is why we are so committed to building more social and affordable housing this year, which we will do to provide more homes to those who need the support that we want to deliver.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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It is a drop in the ocean.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I attended a meeting in Abbeyknockmoy, County Galway on Monday night where more than 40 parents represented their children. Twenty-six of their children did not get school bus tickets last year because they were pushed out of the system by a late, ill-thought-out measure that was brought in to try to deal with the cost-of-living crisis by allocating free school bus tickets. Effectively, these families had to rent a private bus, costing them €850 per child for the year. There was no saving for them in the measure.

The meeting was held because the school bus application process is coming to an end and payments have to be made by 9 June, after which ticket allocations will be made to parents. The fear is that there will be many more people on the road trying to get to school even while school buses are not full because the people allocated tickets have not taken them up. People will be driving in cars after these buses to bring their children to school. This is an ill-thought-out way of providing school transport.

The school in Abbeyknockmoy feeds into Holy Rosary College, Mountbellew. All the pupils in sixth class in Newtown National School will attend Mountbellew next year. Will the Department of Education provide the necessary buses to make sure that our children can get to school without their parents having to pay for it? The criteria regarding the nearest and second nearest schools have changed, as has the nature of where people are going to school. We talk about a green economy and taking cars off the road, yet there are parents following along after buses and children standing on the side of the road watching buses they were allowed onto last year passing them by with empty seats. Parents have to pay a great deal of money to get private bus operators to bring their children to school. There is something wrong with this system. Bus Éireann needs the Government's support to ensure that whatever happens this year is done early so that parents know their children have seats on the buses and as many people as possible are accommodated. It is not a mystery. It is just a question of using practical solutions to get people to the schools they want to attend.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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This is a matter with which I am familiar; Deputy Cannon has been raising it as well. I am sure he has been attending the same meetings as the Deputy and engaging with parents, pupils and teachers who are concerned about the issue.

I acknowledge the scheme's importance and the valuable role it plays in supporting school access and supporting families. I also acknowledge the importance of the cost of school transport in the context of the cost-of-living challenges that many are facing. While Deputies understandably raise difficulties in moments like this, it is worth pointing out that this is a scheme providing support for 147,900 children the current school year, including 18,000 children with special educational needs, all of whom are transported on a daily basis to their schools. This scheme provides an important, valuable and deserved support to nearly 150,000 children and their families. It is because of this that the Government is committed to continuing the scheme while also ensuring it is available on a sustainable basis.

The measures from last year that the Deputy referred to resulted from a decision to reduce the charge to €50 per student at primary level and €75 per student at post-primary level, with a cap per family of €125.

First, that was an important intervention from the Government to try to help with the cost of living, and with what we know is one of the biggest daily costs in people's lives, which is the cost of transport. It is a cost that can be particularly high for families who depend on transport for school access. As Deputy Canney is aware, the Government is currently carrying out a review of the school transport scheme, but while that review is in place we are doing all we can to ensure that those who are eligible for support for transport under the current scheme have their needs met. I am not in a position, as I am sure Deputy Canney can appreciate, to give him a definitive answer on a particular route, or on particular families. I can just emphasise the support that we have for the scheme overall. Of course, the Government, Deputy Cannon, and other Deputies who are dealing with this issue, will all do what we can to try to get the clarity Deputy Canney is looking for and the answers that, more importantly, families, pupils and schools need, as soon as possible in the year and in advance of the new school year.

12:22 pm

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Yes, we need clarity as soon as possible. The review on the school bus service that is ongoing was raised at the previous meeting. It has been going on since 2019. Covid intervened, but I do not think Covid is with us any longer, so we need to get that review brought to a conclusion so that we can see what changes we can make.

I acknowledge the fact that the school transport system works to a certain extent, but I think every Deputy in the House knows and has experience of queries last August, September, October, November, December and January from people who previously were getting concessionary tickets and who were refused them last year. The bus was passing them by, where people had not taken up their allocation of tickets and there were seats on the bus. The school transport team on the ground was taking the brunt of the anger from parents about this, which was totally unfair as well. I acknowledge the work they have done, but it is important that we get it right this year to make up for the anomalies and the unintended consequences people suffered last year.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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That is a fair point. We put in place those measures to make a much needed, and I believe much valued, contribution to families at a time in which the cost of living and the increase in the cost of living was so urgent and causing such hardship. I am aware from Deputies on these benches of the anomaly to which Deputy Canney refers and also of the frustration that many families and pupils felt when they saw school buses go by that were empty and had empty seats on them. This is of course a matter that will be considered in the context of the review that is under way on school transport.

I understand that review had three different phases, because a lot of data needed to be gathered in relation to this and a lot of consultation needed to take place, but I understand it is going to be completed shortly. The final phase of the report is now being carried out and I am sure it will be shared with the Government very shortly.

I will conclude with two points in relation to it. The first one is again to encourage all families who are eligible for school transport under the current system to put in their application so they do not find themselves in difficulty a little later in the year because the application has not gone in.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Minister.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I emphasise that while this review is under way, we will continue to deliver against all of the commitments on the current scheme. I have no doubt that Bus Éireann and the Department of Education will do all they can to try to resolve individual issues that are developing. I cannot promise that we can resolve all of them, but I know everyone will do their best.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I want to raise the voids scheme, but I would rather have the name changed to what it is, namely, the empty houses scheme. When we talk about voids in local authorities, I would rather call them what they are: empty local authority houses.

I want to highlight the fact that a local authority only gets €11,000 to do up a house, no matter what condition it is in, if it is vacant. The other anomaly is that if the house has received any funding since 2014, it will actually receive no funding whatsoever. In the county that I represent, County Kerry, if our local authority has a house that is empty, it could cost €50,000 to do it up, but if it has received any money since 2014 it will actually not receive anything. The most we can get is €11,000, which as the Minister knows will do very little, but the other option is that we will actually get nothing at all.

In Kerry at present, we have a lot of empty houses, or as the Minister calls them, voids. I call them empty houses. That is not the fault of our local authority, our excellent housing authority. It is not their fault. I do not have to remind the Minister, who was a very prudent Minister for Finance - I respect the work he is doing - that over a three-year period he failed to spend €1 billion on housing. Now, more than ever, we need to review the whole system of dealing with voids, empty houses. We should treat it the same as a person in the private sector would treat it. If a private person who is serious about their business is involved in property, and if a house becomes vacant, they will tear at it, the same as a man or a woman at the moment who goes out to cut a field of silage, knock a field of hay, or plough a field. They tear at it, as there is a job of work to be done. If a house or apartment becomes vacant, the person who owns it will come at it in a systematic way. They will send in a plumber, painter or tiler and they will refurbish it by doing whatever needs to be done. Our local authority cannot do that because their hands are tied behind their backs, financially.

Will the Minister please take on board what I am saying, which is sensible and sound? He has the money. He failed to spend €1 billion over three years. I would gladly help him to spend it in County Kerry, if he would take on 160 houses that are empty. I am very serious about this. I know that the Government wants to assist and to do good work. We have 160 houses in Kerry that are voids. Could the Minister please give us the money and we will turn them around? We have the workers. We have excellent people on the ground. We will put people living in those houses – moms, dads, children, aunties and uncles. We will have them living inside in those houses as quick as you can say, Jack Flash. All I am saying is that the Minister should please look at that whole system, resource it properly and remove the limit of only allocating €11,000 or nothing.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the Deputy would not be short of many great ideas regarding how to spend €1 billion in County Kerry. I am also sure he would be able to turn that money to very good effect. But on the point about €1 billion, it is important to make the case that during two of the three years that Deputy Healy-Rae refers to, we were dealing with a pandemic during which the construction sector was closed for long phases.

Photo of Michael McNamaraMichael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Ridiculously.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The sole reason as to why there were capital underspends for the year before last is that during that period the construction sector was not functioning in a normal way. That is the key reason.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Government closed it.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I completely agree with the point Deputy Healy-Rae made about voids. In many ways, the term "void" is very misleading. It is an empty home. In Constitution Hill, at the heart of Dublin Central, a very different setting, I have seen the way in which properties that were described as voids have now been turned into homes for people who needed them. That is why the successful delivery of, let us call it, an empty home programme via our local authorities has been a really important element of what the Government has been doing.

Deputy Healy-Rae made reference to the figure of €11,000. We will need to look at that figure a bit more, because in the information that I have, I am informed that in 2021 the average funding for the non-standard voids programme, to use that phrase again, for a property was €50,000, which is well ahead of the €11,000 to which Deputy Healy-Rae refers. That is something that is going to need a bit more work. In relation to Kerry, I understand that since 2014, up to the end of 2022, €8 million in funding has been provided, which has led to the remediation of 723 homes. I think Deputy Healy-Rae made the point that if funding has been received in the past then one cannot get more funding. I do understand that in 2022 Kerry County Council received a further €239,000 to carry out more maintenance works on properties that would have been empty homes.

Overall, it is something on which we can make more progress as a Government. From an environmental perspective, it makes much more sense to rehabilitate properties that are already built, which is why there is €31 million against this programme for the country overall. Through that, we have allocated €616,000 for Kerry County Council to turn more vacant properties into homes. I am sure the Deputy will have further ideas on how the programme can work better in the future. Whether it be Kerry, Dublin or anywhere else, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and the Government are fully committed to the adequate funding of an empty home programme to get empty properties full of people who deserve a home.

12:32 pm

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I appreciate that the Minister is talking sense and calling them empty homes, not voids. It is nice to hear a person telling the truth as it is. I stand over the statement, because it is a fact, that if a house received funding since 2014, it cannot receive funding a second time. I would like the Minister to examine the empty house scheme and ask that local authorities are adequately resourced.

In the brief time remaining to me, I will speak about our local authority, Kerry County Council. I appreciate its workers, whether it is the CEO, Moira Murrell, director of housing, Martin O'Donoghue, or all of the clerks of work out on the ground today as we speak maintaining and looking at property and seeing what they can do to help people on the housing lists. I thank all of the investigating officers, all of the ladies and men working in the offices of Kerry County Council's housing department for their work. I ask the Minister to ask the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Taoiseach and the Government to adequately resource those excellent people so they can carry on with their excellent work. I thank him for that.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the importance of the empty house programme; it is why, between 2020 and 2022, more than 8,000 so-called voids were turned into homes across the country. In recognition of the Deputy's point that we should turn empty properties into full homes at a time of such great housing difficulty, that has happened. The programme for 2023 is to use €31 million, which I mentioned a moment ago, to add to the 8,000 homes and deliver a further 2,300. These programmes are fully funded and are being implemented all over the country. I see them happening with my own eyes. Where there are further opportunities to turn empty properties into homes, I know the Minister will act upon it. I acknowledge what the Deputy said about the excellent people in Kerry County Council. I am sure all of his Government colleagues representing Kerry would join him in recognising their work.