Niall Collins (Limerick County, Fianna Fail)
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I move: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.”

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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With the agreement of the House, I will share time with the Minister of State, Deputy Collins.

I am pleased to have this opportunity to address the House and present the Bill with my colleague, the Minister of State. The Bill represents an important contribution by my Department, working closely with SOLAS and on the basis of strong engagement with industry and trade union stakeholders, to strengthening the statutory framework for health and safety training in Ireland.

The Bill, as is clear from its title, has a specific focus on helping to safeguard all those working in a key sector of our economy, namely construction. We have experienced in line with the resurgence of the economy, undoubtedly will continue to experience into the future and need to continue to experience substantial growth in our construction workforce. This is essential if we are to meet the major targets we have set under key Government strategies, including the national development plan, NDP, Housing for All and the climate action plan.

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In doing so, the Government is committed to ensuring there is a strong and effective framework in place to protect the health and safety of the construction workforce. The Bill focuses on the very broad spectrum of construction occupations that are at the heart of the performance and productivity of the construction sector overall. These are occupations such as crane and excavator operators, various roadworks operatives, roofers and scaffolders. It is a priority for me and it is wholly aligned with the mandate of the Department that a robust licensing regime is in place for all the relevant occupations.

The primary aim is, of course, that construction workers are properly trained, competent and safe to carry out these roles to protect themselves and those who work alongside them. The licensing legislation, however, also provides an important opportunity to support the professionalisation, productivity and innovation of the construction workforce and to support the workforce through education and training to acquire the skills necessary to work with the new technologies driving the adoption of modern methods of construction. There is a real opportunity in the Bill to get this right.

The Construction Safety Licensing Bill should be seen as another significant reform and advancement for our education and training sector, further confirming the importance and impact of the establishment of the Department and the opportunity it has provided to decisively address long-standing priorities. These include providing a sound legal basis for further embedding safe practices in training by establishing a licensing authority to develop, manage and monitor a licensing model for a range of construction and quarrying activities. These activities are currently certified for life under the construction skills certification scheme and the quarries skills certification scheme, both of which are administered by Quality and Qualifications Ireland. The Bill will move these activities from certificates to licences, which require periodic reassessment for renewal. In doing so, it will provide a clear and explicit legal basis in primary legislation for the education and training requirements of the relevant construction activities.

I will take this opportunity to stress the great importance of training and education for construction workers. Through the introduction of reassessment and renewal in the Bill, there will be an assurance that workers are continuing to carry out activities in a safe and competent manner. It is a fundamental aim of the Bill that in introducing this licensing model, we will continue to minimise the number of accidents and fatalities on construction sites, and continue to minimise the number of grieving families, as we continue to produce highly-skilled workers who are confident, competent and productive in how they go about working in a safe manner.

I will take this opportunity, as I have not had one previously, to congratulate Deputy Mairéad Farrell on her appointment as her party's spokesperson on further and higher education, research, innovation and science. I, along with the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, look forward to working with her constructively on this legislation and other issues.

Niall Collins (Limerick County, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister, Deputy Harris, for his opening remarks. I am pleased to have the opportunity to outline the development of the Bill and to present its main features.

The development of this Bill has been supported by engagement with the construction industry in Ireland, including the undertaking of a stakeholder consultation at the beginning of last year. It built on consultative work in 2017 and a resulting report, which recommended a move to a licensed model. The 2022 consultation process was incredibly beneficial to us in developing a licensing model that the industry would accept and approve of, given the importance of workers being able to deliver their skills in a safe way. I should also note that during this consultation process, partners highlighted the importance of the need for appropriate oversight and transparency in a licensing model.

The licensing model will impact the construction sector in a number of ways. The health and safety practices of construction workers will be transformed. Through this, it is my hope that workplace accidents, injuries and fatalities will be minimised. Giving those in the construction sector the chance to obtain occupational recognition under the licensing model will raise awareness of the scale of opportunities in the sector. Through regulating these activities, and further embedding health and safety considerations into training, the licensing model will assist in meeting the workforce requirements, skills and objectives outlined in a number of Government strategies, including Housing for All and the national development plan. Through widening the awareness of skills and occupations in the sector, there is also an opportunity to support increased female participation and further gender equality.

I will briefly outline the main provisions of the Bill, which I will discuss in terms of the key features of the new regulatory system. As the House has already heard mentioned by the Minister, Deputy Harris, a licensing authority will be established to oversee a licensing model for construction and quarrying workers and tutors. This is set out in section 9. The licensing model, set out in sections 24 to 38, inclusive, will be based on periodic assessment of competence, replacing the current lifetime accredited training model. The licensing model to be established will introduce skills-based assessment with no distinction on the basis of environment. It will, therefore, combine the current division into construction and quarrying activities.

The licensing authority also will oversee the statutory approval requirement for training organisations under sections 40 to 43, inclusive. Section 44 sets out that a register of licensed tutors and approved training organisations will be established and will be available online. Section 22 provides that the licensing authority will be the designated competent authority to recognise foreign qualifications from member states and third countries in respect of scheduled activities.

We are creating a number of offences, including fraudulently obtaining worker or tutor licences or approval as a training organisation. These are summarised in section 60. Under section 45, individuals will have the opportunity to make complaints based on fraud or non-compliance, and investigations can be conducted if the licensing authority sees fit to do so, as set out in section 46.

Sections 55 to 58, inclusive, provide for anyone affected by the process of an investigation to have the opportunity to make representations and appeal any decision made by an inspector or the licensing authority.

Section 9 provides that the licensing authority established under the Bill will be appointed by the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. The licensing authority will have a number of functions, as outlined in section 12, which include the granting, renewing and issuing of licences, suspending or revoking licences, inspecting licences of sole traders, appointing examiners for any licensing examination and acting as the competent authority for the purpose of recognition of professional qualifications from applicants in member states and third countries.

Training standards and continuous training are important contributions to occupational safety and health. This is recognised in sections 13 and 14, which enable the licensing authority to specify training requirements to be met for licence and approval applicants, and to provide for continuous training. As tutors and approved training organisations are the key training providers under this model, it is important that they have guidance in adhering to the specified training standards. Therefore, we are introducing a code of practice, outlined in detail in section 18, which will be prepared and adopted by the licensing authority. All licensed tutors and approved training organisations will need to commit to have regard to this code of practice. I have indicated throughout the legislative process for the Bill that it is very important that the health and safety training of our construction workforce moves in tandem with advancements in the sector. Section 23 provides that the list of scheduled activities, that is, those for which a licence will be required, can be amended to reflect developments in health and safety requirements, technical developments and other innovations relating to the activity.

The licensing model for workers and tutors and approval process for approved training organisations is outlined in detail in Part 5 of the Bill and I will now briefly summarise it. Sections 24 to 39, inclusive, outline the worker and tutor licensing model in detail, including the provisional worker licence, the full worker licence and the tutor licence. There will be a provisional worker licence for first-time worker licence applicants, which is provided for in sections 28 and 30 of the Bill. A provisional worker licence is for applicants who have successfully completed a new entrant programme and hold valid safety awareness cards. These are more commonly referred to as Safe Pass cards. Under section 28, a provisional worker licence will be valid for a two-year period from when it is issued and cannot be renewed. During this period, the provisional licenceholders must complete six months of certified monitored training, which will help to ensure that they can learn in a safe and controlled way. A person must hold a valid provisional worker licence in order to apply for an initial full worker licence. Section 29 allows that full worker licences will be valid for five years.

When applying for a worker licence under section 31, applicants must demonstrate that they have completed six months' certified monitored training, that they have successfully completed the final licence examination and that they hold a valid Safe Pass card. Each of these requirements is an essential component of ensuring that health and safety training is embedded in the licensing model. The tutor licensing model that we are establishing under the Bill will be very similar to the worker model. We will not be introducing a provisional tutor licence for the tutor licensing model, as applicants for tutor licences will be required to hold a valid worker licence on initial application. Under section 37, when applying for a tutor licence applicants must show evidence that they are compliant with the code of practice, which will provide practical guidance on the application of requirements under this Act.

Sections 32 and 38 both outline how a licensed worker or a licensed tutor can renew their licence within six months of the end of the licence's validity period. Workers must show that they hold a valid worker licence, have successfully completed the worker renewal programme and hold a valid safety awareness registration card. Tutors must similarly show that they hold a valid tutor licence and have successfully completed the tutor renewal programme, and must also declare that they are compliant with the code of practice.

Finally, as I indicated earlier, the licensing authority will also oversee the administration of approvals for training organisations. Section 40 sets out that approved training organisations are the only entities entitled to deliver the new entrant programmes for first-time licenceholders, final licence examinations for workers and renewal programmes for both workers and tutors. These training organisations can be made up of one or more licensed tutors.

Under section 42, renewal of approval can be made within three months of expiry of the current approval. A renewal application must include evidence and details of the licensed tutors who will be delivering training and proof that they are compliant with the code of practice and the Companies Act 2014.

The underlying rationale for all of these measures is to embed current best practice as regards training and practices in the activities of workers in the sector. In this way, the health and safety of workers is of paramount importance in this Bill and will be supported through training provision. Further reassurance is provided through the establishment, under section 44, of a register of licensees and approved training organisations.

Without doubt, it is necessary to ensure that any licence or approval holder is carrying out work or delivering training to a high standard. In section 45, we are introducing a procedure to make complaints against any licence or approval holder regarding fraud and, for licensed tutors and approved training organisations, non-compliance with the code of practice. The licensing authority will have the right to investigate any complaint and can appoint an inspector to carry out this investigation. Having the power to investigate suspected fraud and non-compliance is very important as both of these instances underline the importance of health and safety training in ensuring safety on-site.

Regarding licensed tutors and approved training organisations, we are allowing inspectors to request an improvement plan from the person or persons being investigated, under section 51. The purpose of this is to allow the licensed tutor or approved training organisation to remedy any issues the inspector identifies during their investigation. The inspector will also have the power to issue an improvement notice or, following that, a prohibition notice to the person if he or she still believes improper conduct is taking place. The full provisions for the improvement notice and prohibition notice are detailed in sections 52 and 53 of this Bill. This process will give licensed tutors and approved training organisations multiple opportunities to address any issues present, and they will also be given the opportunity to appeal any notice issued to them. However, as I have stated throughout this process, health and safety is at the centre of this Bill. Therefore, if a licensed tutor or approved training organisation does not adhere to the final prohibition notice, the inspector can recommend suspension or revocation of a licence or approval, or prosecution of the licensed tutor or approved training organisation.

In order to ensure the licensing model maintains a high standard of health and safety training, the Bill will also introduce a number of offences and provide for appropriate sentences if a person is found guilty of any of these offences. Under section 25, it will be an offence for a person to engage a worker to carry out an activity without ensuring the worker has a relevant licence. It will also be an offence for someone to not co-operate with an investigation, as provided for in section 49. Section 53 states that it is an offence for a person to not comply with a prohibition notice or to cause another person not to comply with such a notice. If a person is found guilty of any of these offences, they may be liable to a fine or imprisonment, and their licence or approval may be revoked. In addition, following consultations with colleagues in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the licensing authority will notify the construction industry registration body if a person is guilty of an offence under this Bill. This will further ensure safe practices within the sector.

It is recognised that licence or approval holders may wish to make representations or formal appeals related to decisions made by the licensing authority or an inspector. Therefore, section 55 allows worker or tutor licence applicants who have not had their applications granted or renewed to make representations to the licensing authority. In addition, an appeals process will be established, meaning those who are not content with the response to their representation can appeal this decision within 14 days. We are also establishing a formal appeals committee under section 56, consisting of a chairperson and at least four ordinary members appointed by the Minister and independent of the licensing authority. Under section 57, a licensee or approved training organisation adversely affected by a decision of the licensing authority not to grant or renew their licence or approval can appeal the decision to the appeals committee. In addition to the appeals committee, section 58 sets out that anyone can appeal the decision of the committee to the District Court within 30 days of receipt and sanctions may be imposed as necessary. Collectively, these provisions add an important element of fairness to the licensing model.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy James O’Connor has asked me to welcome the members of the Gortroe Ladies Club to Leinster House today. You are all very welcome. Make sure you come back again frequently.

I congratulate Deputy Mairéad Farrell on her appointment to her current role.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. That sounds like a good group so I might see if I can join them afterwards with Deputy O’Connor.

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Collins. This marks my first time engaging with the Minister of State in my new role as spokesperson on higher education. As it is also the first legislation that I get to deal with in my new role, I feel that, today, I have reached two milestones in this role in one go. It is my hope that we will have a very positive working relationship. No doubt, there will be differences of opinion, probably strong differences of opinion, but I will strive to engage constructively with the Minister of State. I have no doubt we will share different political views, political values and visions for higher education in the State, yet I believe we can work through arguments and that the Minister of State will see that when I bring forward my arguments, policy documents and legislation, I will always do so in good faith.

I hope these efforts reflect my own belief in the important role that higher education will play when it comes to things like industrial policy, apprenticeships and planning for the economy of the future. I hope they will reflect my strongly-held view that education is a public good, one which unquestionably serves the public interest, and reflect my firm conviction that research, both quantitative and qualitative, is the driving force in the creation of knowledge, not just in the economy but in the wider society in which it is embedded.

In my previous role as spokesperson on public expenditure, when it came to dealing with legislation, I believe the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, and I engaged very constructively, particularly around significant legislation like the new protected disclosures regime and the update to the lobbying regime. We certainly did not always agree. There were times when I felt he did not go far enough and I am sure there were times when he thought I was going too far. However, where we could reach consensus, he was amenable to accepting my amendments and I made sure to acknowledge him in those instances. I feel this is the right way to deal with significant legislation and not to reflexively shoot down amendments by virtue of the fact they originated on this side of the House. I hope this approach can be applied when this Bill and the others the Minister of State will bring forward reach Committee Stage.

With that said, I turn to the Bill before us today. I understand this Bill has a focus on the work the Department is undertaking with regard to Housing for All and the national development plan. I am also aware, and I heard again today, that there are health and safety concerns underlying the Bill. I have seen the Construction Industry Federation's report from last year which showed that workplace accidents in 2021 had increased by 4.3%, which equated to 794 reported injuries. I imagine that any sensible person would be in favour of efforts to improve workplace safety, particularly in a profession such as this, where there are reports of some of the highest levels of workplace accidents. Of course, this has a real-life impact on the people who are impacted by it, those who are working in the sector and, indeed, those who are delivering to construction sites as well.

We also need to remember that a lot of the risks involved relate to working at heights and in adverse weather conditions. One of the many benefits of the use of modern methods of construction, which I have long been urging the Minister of State's colleagues, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, and the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, to consider, is the fact that it addresses these risks specifically. The modern approach moves a significant amount of work from the construction site to the factory floor, to indoor working conditions. The need to work at heights is also greatly reduced. The Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science has already undertaken some work in this regard and has been examining the kinds of apprenticeships that will be needed to support greater uses of modern methods of construction here. This is an area in which I am particularly interested and I am sure we will get a chance to discuss it in greater detail. Hopefully it is something that we can move along on and I would very much welcome that.

On SOLAS becoming the recognised licensing authority, it is no harm to have a clear line of responsibility. It should also help to standardise and professionalise the sector. I am aware that on building sites and for construction work in general, some types of tradespeople like electricians or plumbers might have needed to demonstrate their qualifications or have a requirement for a certain sign-off from their respective associations but this Bill brings greater standardisation and professionalisation of work, which is very welcome. If it brings greater accountability for work that is later found to be substandard, that is welcome too. I would like to hear more detail on this and perhaps it can be teased out on Committee Stage. If SOLAS is gaining new powers then it would appear that it is taking on a new role vis-à-visaccountability as well. I am interested to hear exactly how that will work in practice. Will it involve random spot checks or how will it work?

Another thing I have noticed in the Bill, which I appreciate, is an attempt to encourage greater female participation in what is obviously a very heavily male-dominated sector. Sometimes people might say that I also work in a fairly male-dominated sector, although we are getting better. I was looking at figures from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, earlier which show that female participation in the construction sector is at 9% but to be fair, Ireland is not an outlier in that regard. It is a male-dominated sector throughout the world. Countries like Australia have actively tried to encourage greater diversity but even there, female participation in the construction sector is only around 12%, which is only slightly higher than our own rate despite that particular focus. Some Australian states have begun taking steps towards non-binding quotas and so on. For instance, in the state of Victoria, there is now a mandate that at least 4% of labour hours for apprentices and trainees will be required to be performed by women.

Having read the Bill itself and the related documentation, a lot of the attention and focus is on being able to deliver on housing and the national development plan, NDP. I believe the housing and the wider infrastructural deficit is one of the greatest failures of the last decade. We are in a much different position than we were a decade ago. At that time, we were told that we did not have the money to tackle the crisis but that is certainly not the case today. This year we are forecast to run a budget surplus of €10 billion and next year, we are forecast to run a surplus of over €16 billion. In fact, some estimate that we will run surpluses for the rest of the decade. The funds are there but the question is how best to use them. It should be clear that something drastic is needed because right now, we are caught in a vicious cycle. The housing crisis is forcing many young people to emigrate. Many apprentices are looking towards life in Australia. We are in a position where we need more apprentices to build more houses but because of the lack of affordable housing, many of the apprentices we are getting through the system are leaving. Furthermore, those qualified tradespeople who emigrated during the last crisis, some of whom would like to come home, cannot do so because of the lack of affordable housing.

Tá go leor rudaí maithe sa Bhille seo, ach go háirithe i dtéarmaí go mbeadh níos mó ban bainteach leis an earnáil seo. Beidh sé suimiúil a fheiceáil cén bealach gur féidir é sin a dhéanamh. Má bhreathnaímid thar timpeall na cruinne, is fadhb í i ngach áit i ndáiríre. In áiteanna cosúil leis an Astráil, cé go bhfuiltear dírithe níos mó ban a fháil isteach san earnáil sin, ní rabhthas in ann é sin a dhéanamh. Beidh orainn breathnú ar an mbealach ar féidir linn é a dhéanamh. Is rud amháin é atá soiléir ná go gcaithfimid rud éigin a dhéanamh chun cinntiú go bhfuilimid in ann níos mó tithe a thógáil le go mbeimid in ann déileáil leis an drochinfreastruchtúr atá ann timpeall na tíre. Caithfidh mé gur sna ceantair níos iargúlta go bhfeicimid é sin gach uile lá beo ar na bóithre, na droichid agus mar sin de. Tá seans ann leis seo áfach. Beidh an-suim agam é seo a phlé sa choiste agus níos mó eolais a fháil air seo. Ag an bpointe seo, caithfidh mé a rá go bhfáiltím roimh aon rud a chabhróidh leis an earnáil tithíochta agus a bhreathnóidh ar thithe a thógáil agus ar an infreastruchtúr atá ann. Tá mé ag súil le plé níos cruinne a fháil ar an gceist seo. Beidh le feiceáil céard iad na himpleachtaí a bheidh ag an mBille seo ach gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit agus tá mé ag súil le hoibriú leis san am atá amach romham.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The history of the regulation of construction and quarries in Ireland is really appalling and counties like Donegal are paying a profound price for that. I live in Buncrana, the epicentre of the defective blocks crisis. Not a day goes by that I do not talk to a family whose lives are utterly destroyed by the fact that their homes are falling apart. It is not just about the cost of fixing it, but the mental health effects and the utter devastation. This is not just about defective blocks either. It is about defective apartments, pyrite, mica, pyrrhotite, iron sulphide and the absolute failure to regulate the industry. Even as we speak, technically the quarries that produced these defective blocks that fall apart like Weetabix, are still not subject to proper regulation. They still self-regulate to a large extent.

I want to take the opportunity to speak in this debate because part of this legislation focuses on quarries and on the training of people in this industry to do things properly, to have a standard and to have oversight. That is very welcome. The body that is tasked at present to some degree with oversight of the quarries to ensure things are done properly is the National Building Control and Market Surveillance Office, NBCMSO, linked to Dublin City Council. That body was tasked with carrying out an audit, in partnership with Donegal County Council and the Geological Survey of Ireland, of the quarries in Donegal to see what is the state of play as we speak. I attended the meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage when it engaged with the NBCMSO after it completed the audit. I found it really alarming that even after the utter devastation caused to thousands of families in Donegal, Mayo and other counties in the west of Ireland - it is estimated that as many as 14 counties are affected, which makes this a growing crisis - and even after what the Government has said will cost us billions of euro, we still have not got access to test some of the quarries we know to be responsible for this crisis. Petrographic tests of these quarries have not been done because the people who were doing the audit could not get access. I cannot think of a scandal that has devastated so many people, at a cost of billions of euro to the State and untold costs for years and decades to come, and still we do not have full accountability or full access to the truth and cannot give full assurance to people that this will never happen again. That is why I wanted to raise this today. We have to be 100% certain that this will never happen again, that no quarry in Ireland will be allowed to produce products of the devastating impact that some produced. It is not just an issue in Donegal but right down the west of Ireland, involving a wide range of counties.

In terms of the audit that was carried out by the NBCMSO, the recommendations for training and so on, this new body will have oversight of that.

We need to make sure - this is the key issue - that we do not allow quarries to produce concrete blocks that have too high a content of pyrrhotite, iron sulphites, mica, pyrite and any of the minerals that are defined in Irish law and in European law. We must not allow it to happen. It cannot be allowed to happen. We must ensure that there is not self-regulation, whereby builders just do whatever they want. There must be full oversight - full eyes upon this industry - to make sure this never happens again. Whatever about the devastated families in Donegal, the west of Ireland and other counties, this will impact on every citizen of this State. It will cost multiple billions of euro by the time this is all finished. That is the cost of providing redress for all the families. I cannot think of any other scandal where we would not make sure it could absolutely never happen again.

In terms of this legislation, which is a welcome step in the right direction, I ask that we absolutely ensure that quarries can never again produce defective concrete blocks, that they absolutely comply with Irish and European law, and that every effort is made to oversee them, get access to the quarries, train them and apply the law rigorously. That is the least we can do to repay the debt to the many thousands of families whose lives have been destroyed because of the failures of the past.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the Construction Safety Licensing Bill 2023. It is imperative for the future of the construction industry in Ireland and for the safety of all workers in that sector. I previously worked on several construction sites when I was younger. I will never forget one incident. A foreman asked me to walk out on a scaffolding plank seven storeys up, while he got other workers to stand on the plank just behind me, to knock off a piece of shuttering. That is how dangerous some of these sites can be, with people who have no care for the safety of their workers. It is important to see that provisions are being made to streamline the regulations around making a complaint against rogue contractors and those engaging in dangerous and non-compliant practices on sites and developments. They still exist to this day.

As we know, some construction companies are driven purely by greed and profit and are keen to cut corners and keep costs down against all health and safety measures, good practice and professionalism. The hiring of unqualified workers has had a profound effect on the quality and safety of buildings and the safety of other workers on site. This afternoon we met with a group of residents from the Tallaght-Clondalkin area who are still fighting for their rights, having been let down time and again. They have costs of up to €46,000 per apartment to try to remedy the health and safety and fire issues that a construction company left them with. They told me that the same construction company has built hundreds more houses following their development. It is the same construction company with the same directors, building right next door to them. How galling is it to see the legacy they have been left with while this builder is still building? It is incredible.

I welcome section 24 of the Bill, in chapter 2, which requires workers to hold a relevant worker’s licence. It stipulates that those who do not hold a licence are guilty of an offence. That is at the core of many of the legacy issues we have. Unqualified people were taken on, knowingly unqualified, to work as electricians, carpenters and others. They were doing important work but were completely unqualified. The Bill should also include a section to deal with the rogue construction company that knowingly employed people in trades for which they did not hold the relevant licence.

It is of the utmost importance for the licensing authority to be well regulated and established in a clear and transparent process. Positions on the authority must be awarded to those with the experience and knowledge to carry out their duty in the required manner. The regulation of tutors and approved training organisations in this Bill is welcome. I hope that within their remit, the licensing authority and the Department would look to increase the numbers of people taking up apprenticeships that would benefit the construction industry. This would also alleviate the problem of unqualified persons taking jobs such as electricians, bricklayers and carpenters, which are jobs that require appropriate training in order to carry out their trades efficiently and safely. As of May 2022 the number of apprenticeships waiting for all phases of off-the-job training included 3,316 in the electrical trade, 1,162 in plumbing, 844 in carpentry and 98 in bricklaying and stonelaying. We hear time and again that people with skills and trades are needed for the construction industry, yet here are close to 6,000 potentially fully qualified tradespeople who need the Government to invest in training schemes to make sure they are on sites, putting their talents to work and building much-needed homes.

Sinn Féin carried out a survey in 2022 which showed that many apprentices who are working full time are on very low pay, with some below minimum wage. Many people told us that travel and accommodation grants simply do not match the real costs of travel and accommodation. Grants do not cover the real costs for apprentices. They are put under huge financial pressure by rising costs. The survey found that 84% of apprentices have had to cut down on essentials such as buying groceries or turning on the heating. Some 72% have had to take on debt since starting their apprenticeships. Almost half said they are worried they may have to give up their apprenticeships simply because they cannot afford to keep going. This would have a devastating impact on a range of industries. It would also have a major impact on construction and retrofitting.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
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I welcome to the Public Gallery a gentleman called Luke King who is a student in Pobalscoil Neasáin in Donaghmede. He is part of the Northside Partnership young community leaders group which has made a number of presentations recently to me and to the Lord Mayor on vaping, the reform of the leaving certificate and drug use in its community. He is here with the ambition hopefully to come back as a Deputy in future years. I hope that he enjoys the debate today.

As the Minister knows, the main purpose of the Construction Safety Licensing Bill 2023 is to modernise the system of safety certification for construction sites and quarrying by moving towards a licensing system. It streamlines the process to ensure that everyone in the quarry or on the construction site has safety training or the qualifications to be there. We will do this by providing a new and comprehensive framework for the licensing of certain construction, quarrying and related activities in Ireland. The Bill will establish a licensing authority, which we support, through the Minister's licensing modelling for the unified sector, replacing the current certificate approach across the two distinct sectors of construction and quarrying.

The practical effect of the Bill will be to strengthen the effectiveness and streamline the bureaucracy around safety certification. We support the Bill and look forward to making amendments as required during later Stages. It is welcome as a contribution to the improvement of the industry. However, this Bill is only a small start in a huge range of reforms we need in the construction industry. Thousands of residents, as previously mentioned by Deputy Mac Lochlainn, in my constituency have been affected by the construction defects scandals. People in my community have experience of rogue builders and rogue developers putting together apartment buildings such as Priory Hall. During housing debates, Government representatives accuse people in the Opposition of objecting to housing developments. However, it would be absolutely a dereliction of duty if political representatives in a particular geographic location like my own did not scrutinise every single planning application that came in front of them so that we do not have that kind of situation again.

I meet with residents groups, as was described already, who are living in defective apartment blocks with fire safety issues. They live in apartments that they feel could actually threaten their families. The double whammy is that they do not feel they can speak publicly about it because of the level of investment they have put into the property. That is a point worth making. More work needs to be done across government if the pyrite, mica and apartment defects scandals are to be avoided or minimised into the future. We need effective oversight of our building regulations in the way that banking regulation has been overhauled since the financial crash. This will have to involve many more staff in building control by the State than we have. We need boots on the ground, oversight and enforcement of regulations.

At the moment there are no consequences for defective buildings due to the Statute of Limitations, contract law, company law as well as planning, and public procurement. It is far too easy for a company to build something that is defective, go into liquidation, rebrand itself as something else and keep on going. Residents are effectively powerless in trying to pursue those responsible for the defective buildings in which they are forced to live. The Statute of Limitations must be amended such that people can sue after six years. The rights of homeowners vis-à-visproperty developers, contractors and subcontractors must be greatly strengthened. Company law must be changed to prevent builders using serial special purpose vehicle companies they can liquidate after each project to protect their interests. In addition, we must facilitate the corporate veil being lifted so the assets of directors can be got at.

This is a real, live issue in my community as people are living in apartment blocks built by people who must be held to account for what they have done. It has been described as a heartbreak to have invested in something in good faith and find oneself in this situation. These projects got planning permission. Those who purchased these apartments felt they were buying something that had got the say-so of the local authority and that the regulatory authorities were happy enough with. Why would you not hand over money to purchase such an apartment? People subsequently discovered to their horror there is a defect involved and again to their horror they discovered they have no recourse because the developer was just too cute.

If there is anything that has undermined the legitimacy of this Republic in the last 30 or so years, it is cute developers. I reiterate to the Minister of State that as we debate housing policy over and back, it is absolutely the responsibility of a fair-minded public representative to scrutinise any planning application going in to ensure what we have into the future is well-built housing for people and not a repeat of what public representatives like me have had to deal with, and continue to deal with. Again, it is a heartbreak because people do not have the vehicle of using media or speaking publicly because they are so worried about the reputational damage that will be caused to the apartment block in which they live. People want the defects to be sorted, but they do not feel they can speak publicly about it because of the investment they have made.

It is insane that non-compliance with the building regulations is not taken into account when local authorities are deciding on planning applications. The planning laws may need to be amended in this regard. If somebody flouts planning regulations, how can his or her commercial entity be allowed to submit planning applications again on the same level? It makes no sense the record of a company or a developer would not be taken into account. If we cannot trust them to do what they said they were going to in a previous instance, that must be taken into account as they reapply. In our view, it is simply immoral that dodgy builders can get lucrative public contracts, as many have. Again, we must look at public procurement processes to prevent this.

We welcome the Bill, but I would like the Minister of State to take into account many of the issues I have raised in the course of this. From the Labour Party point of view, I hope to improve the Bill as it goes through the House.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The last number of years have brought construction standards to the forefront. We have seen how a lack of regulation has impacted families in the form of issues with mica and pyrite in particular. In so many instances, it has had absolutely devastating impacts on people's physical and mental health. I am conscious on the surface that people might switch off when they hear us discussing this kind of legislation, because one does not automatically see or hear the human impacts of it, but there are such impacts and there is no doubt that when licensing and regulation is not present, or when they are not followed, especially in construction, the personal implications for homeowners and renters can be huge. I have seen that in my own apartment block. I have seen the mental stress, the financial cost and the general upheaval construction defects can cause.

Whether it is construction defects, water ingress, the use of mica or pyrite or so-called cowboy builders, the bottom line is there a very real human impact to poor construction. That is why I really welcome this Bill, which is aimed at providing a new and comprehensive framework for construction licensing in Ireland. When introduced, it will establish a designated licensing authority for the sector, which will include a licensing model for tutors and a register of licensees and approved training organisations. It will also introduce a skills-based system of assessment. I welcome that because it will include recognition of foreign qualifications. That is innovative and really needed, especially when one takes into account where we are with respect not only to the shortage of construction workers, but also to the huge number of people coming to Ireland from other countries, including those seeking international protection here, who have skills we need. Once a foreign qualification meets our requirements and standards, recognising those qualifications will provide a much-needed boost to our construction workforce and allow us to build much-needed homes more quickly.

When establishing any authority, it is obviously critical that we have checks and balances built into the system. I therefore welcome that this Bill also provides for the creation of several new offences and for a complaints and investigations mechanism for fraud or non-compliance. The provision of licensing for tutors and training organisations in this space is a good idea. If we look at almost any other sector, tutors and trainers must meet certain standards, and construction should not be an exception. That is not to say there are not many tutors and training organisations out there doing a fantastic job at the moment. I recently visited the National Construction Training Centre in Mount Lucas and heard all about the many cutting-edge, nearly zero-emission building and retrofitting courses on offer there. I was so impressed with the training opportunities on offer and with how many people are going through the centre's doors. It is a really excellent centre of excellence when it comes to everything from retrofitting, decarbonisation, modern construction methods and utilising the circular economy. I commend the centre on all the work it is doing to modernise the construction sector and construction skills.

At a time when we desperately need to build more quality homes as quickly as we can, and we need to attract more people into the construction sector as quickly as we can, it is precisely that innovation and forward thinking we need to harness. Representatives from SOLAS, the OPW, the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, and Coillte were all before the housing committee yesterday. They spoke about the lack of young people choosing a career in construction and choosing to learn a trade. I am aware the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Harris, have been doing a huge amount of work in improving the amount of apprenticeship options on offer and increasing awareness among young people and school leavers. However, at the meeting yesterday I asked each of the representatives how many internships or apprenticeships they offered within their organisations and was disappointed to hear the responses. They were talking about small numbers of apprenticeships in large organisations. We as a State must lead by example when it comes to offering apprenticeships. We must offer them to young people, those upskilling and those looking to change careers. We currently do not do that at scale. We see it happening in the private sector but we are not seeing it happen at scale in the public sector. The OPW has a workforce of about 2,500 people and has about 60 apprenticeships. That is not even 3%. We need to invest in this because it is win-win. It is a win for us as a State because it helps us to build up our construction workforce and to deliver much-needed homes and it is a win for the apprentices as well because it helps them to develop their careers.

This week is Construction Work and Skills Week. The Intreo Construction Jobs, Apprenticeships and Training Expo will take place this Friday in the National Basketball Arena in Tallaght. Adrianne Mooney and her fantastic team did an incredible job at that event last year in Tallaght Stadium, so this is going to be the second year of it. We had so many people coming from transition year classes to start the Safe Pass process. It is an excellent opportunity for anyone who is considering a career in construction or wants to upskill or become an apprentice.

I would advise people to attend it. I would also advise the Minister of State to give the State the feedback that all of our organisations need to be present at these kinds of events and to take on apprentices. The State needs to lead by example.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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We are facing a range of challenges, one of which is that our housing stock is limited and homelessness is at an all-time high. There is a need to increase stock safely and effectively. Construction has never been as important as it is now. Therefore, we must ensure that, during an increased demand for house building, no chances are taken with safety or competence. Developing criteria further is important, not just for the reasons I have outlined but also for making the sector safe, recognising workers' skills, promoting high standards and increasingly attracting the workers we need.

The BearingPoint report, which contributed to informing this legislation, noted the importance of and the need to ensure training programmes continue to meet the sector's challenging needs in terms of the changing demands being made of the industry, the increasing focus on energy efficiency and the additional demand for new builds. I welcome the inclusion of safety skills in workers' skills development. Unfortunately, construction is up there with agriculture in terms of workplace injuries and fatalities. According to the Health and Safety Authority, there has been a steady increase in workplace fatalities in construction. There were 11 in 2016. That number dropped to five in 2017 and remained at that level in 2018, but it increased to 12 in 2019. In 2020, the number of fatalities hit 16. That same year, approximately 770 non-fatal injuries were also reported. If a licensing model like the one this Bill provides for can reduce the number of such incidents, it is welcome. If the model helps to reduce the high cost of insurance in the sector, that is positive as well.

We also need to look at safety in another way. A considerable number of workplace accidents in this sector are due to working at heights and in poor weather conditions. A measure to combat such accidents would focus on transitioning to rapidly developing alternative construction methods, for example, manufacturing in indoor environments and assembling on site. These modern building methods have been advocated for by Sinn Féin for some time and need to be promoted.

The associated purpose of the Bill is to develop skills continually and to renew licences accordingly. If this is rolled out effectively, it could improve the prospects of our workers, have a positive impact on housing provision and serve to make the industry more attractive. For these to be realised, apprenticeship planning must be given more focus. I welcome the recently opened Construction Skills Training Centre in Tipperary town. It is great to see. The skills developed there will be of great benefit locally. We must ensure that apprentices are incentivised to stay here instead of going to Australia, for example.

With the added demand for housing, new developments in the industry in terms of technology and the additional skills required, we need an assurance that the Bill's provisions are not just ambitious, but are also reflected in reality on sites across the country. I look forward to further discussion on the Bill as it progresses.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister of State for introducing this important Bill. We hope to support it, with a few amendments.

I will go through some of the Bill's important components. Section 22 establishes the licensing authority as a designated competent authority for recognising foreign qualifications in respect of scheduled activities. This is important, and not only in the context of this Bill, as it sets an important precedent for Bills that affect a variety of other sectors. For example, since the beginning of the pandemic, countless industries have suffered staff shortages. The solutions to these shortages are often complex. In education, for example, teacher shortages are being caused by the cost of living, by the housing crisis and, crucially in the case of this Bill, by issues with regulation. There is no effective and timely process for teachers to translate their overseas qualifications and experience into employment here, which is why the establishment of a licensing authority as a designated competent body to do just that in the construction industry is more than welcome and sets an important precedent. We look forward to seeing more detail on how this will work. I hope that the precedent can be transferred.

Section 9 is on competent licensing. We find ourselves living through a housing crisis, and we hear stories about it from our constituents every day. It has been allowed to proceed unabated. A radical increase in the construction of social and affordable homes is a necessary component of tackling this emergency. However, an expansion in the workforce is needed to achieve these goals. Too often in the public service, we see bodies that are unsuited to their assigned functions. As such, the proactive licensing authority must be fit for purpose. If it is not, workforce shortages will remain and standards will continue to drop. This authority must have within its staff sufficient expertise and knowledge about construction work and training. Though licensing must become quicker, speed should never be to the detriment of standards.

This country has a dark recent history when it comes to construction scandals. The mica scandal is another grim legacy of boom era shoddy construction that must never be allowed to happen again. I am unsure about whether certain matters are covered by the Bill. Until this time last year, for example, I believe the NBCMSO only had four staff working – I am not sure about this number, so the Minister of State might clarify – across 31 local authorities with a budget of €564,000, or approximately €18,000 per local authority, and responsibility for inspecting 1,100 quarries. We need to see better than that.

The burden of rebuilding was left on those affected, who suffered great financial and mental strife. However, the issue of lax building standards is one that is broader than the mica scandal. We have seen it before with pyrite and with construction defects in apartments built during the Celtic tiger. As many as 100,000 apartments across the country have serious building defects such as fire safety issues. Homeowners and the State are persistently left with liability for paying for expensive building repairs while construction companies, developers and quarry owners walk away from the mess they made. In many cases, they have been allowed to re-enter the industry unchecked. The State cannot keep picking up the tab for negligence by quarries and the construction sector. Strong standards need to be enforced, including a rigorous system of testing and independent inspection and, in the case of this Bill, a purpose-built training and assessment pipeline for workers and tutors that leaves no room for error.

It must be noted that an improved licensing authority without adequate funding will not effect real change in the industry. The Minister of State must ensure that this project receives suitable backing from the Exchequer. Too often, good ideas are allowed to stagnate and suffer because insufficient funding was provided.

In section 12, we discuss the importance of inspection. For real improvements to be made in the regulation of construction, an emphasis must be placed on the frequency of inspection of workers and tutors. It is all well and good to detail a new authority with updated standards, but without a roster of qualified inspectors working on a rota who frequently reassess the competency of the workforce, no new benefits will be observed. It is essential that those who play key roles in the authority must have an awareness of how construction is actually practised across the country without an assumption that, up to this point, all stakeholders have played by the rules when we know that is not the case. Only by identifying our past problems can we create a better future. Reassessment of workers and tutors leaves less room for error and, in the case of the construction industry, can mean the safety of workers and the public is treated with the utmost respect. It is no insult to professionals that inspection should be more frequent. Rather, it is a protective measure for them, their colleagues and their clients. I have already outlined some of the deficiencies of the NBCMSO in terms of its staffing and budget.

Section 13 is on the dissemination of information. The new licensing authority must specify on its website which programmes, courses or other training, including safety awareness training, must be undertaken and which qualifications must be held in order to obtain a licence or approval. Most crucially, the website should also outline the process and procedures in place to recognise the training, experience and qualifications of persons from other EU member states or third countries. These changes will affect one of the largest industries in the country, though, so a wider information campaign should be conducted by the authority than just a website. Multimedia advertisements may present a more effective way of reaching those who are less online, have limited access to the Internet or for whom English is not their first language.

As to recognising the training, experience and qualifications of those from outside Ireland, the matter of equivalence is an important one. In section 13, the Bill makes clear that foreign training and experience should be recognised as sufficient for licensing if, and only if, the standard of the training is equal to what we accept in this country as sufficient. However, more information is required to understand this equivalence. For example, should the qualifications be recognised as a certain standard by the EU or another regulatory body? How will those travelling from third countries know if their training and experience is at the level required to be equivalent to our standards? A dossier is needed that can highlight which courses in which countries fit the bill for licensing here. Otherwise, some workers may not consider travelling to join our workforce if they are unsure of their eligibility.

Section 14 is on continuous training. I welcome the emphasis placed on continuous training in the Bill, as it is one aspect that has been absent from many industries across the country. Education should never stop at the point of a particular qualification.

5 o’clock

Time often erodes our past learning so continuous learning is needed to keep up with emerging technologies, trends and techniques. It is incredibly important that the many workers who are later into life receive support to learn new skills while continuing to hone old ones. This issue is particularly pertinent in the construction sector where mistakes can be made in that regard and, indeed, often have been. With regular education, inspections and support, these mistakes will become fewer and fewer.

I will conclude by highlighting the importance of ensuring that there is a continuous conveyor belt and that people are incentivised to become apprentices in this industry at a multitude of different levels. In communities such as mine, there were previously great pathways whereby people entered employment as electricians or carpenters. Those pathways seem to have closed up significantly in recent years. Once again, that comes down to issues such as the cost of living. The old payments of €6.84 an hour are simply not sufficient for a person to live in this city and be an apprentice in these crucial industries. The Minister, Deputy Harris, promised that ten new apprenticeship schemes would emerge in 2023 across areas including technology, engineering, farming and horticulture. From what I understand, only one of these ten programmes has gone live so far. We need to expedite these important measures and to see apprentices not in the old way, that is, as young people just getting their start, but as essential to the workforce from the word go. We need to ensure their pay is suitable and adequate to keep up with the cost of living and that they are respected in the workplace. They must also be trained in new and emerging techniques.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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No one could argue with the need for increased safety in construction and related trades. Next to farming, this sector has consistently recorded the highest levels of injuries and deaths. According to the Health and Safety Authority's figures for last year, seven workers lost their lives in construction. Between 2008 and 2019, 107 fatal incidents took place in the construction sector. Between 1989 and 2016, a total of 1,616 fatal work-related accidents were reported to the Health and Safety Authority, HSA. Over a quarter of those people were involved in construction businesses or other businesses engaged in construction activity.

One of the lessons the pandemic had for us all was that this State's system of regulation and safety enforcement for workplaces was wholly inadequate. The HSA proved itself to be abysmal in enforcing Covid regulations and safeguarding workers, as we saw in meat plants and elsewhere. This State does not generally like regulating. It especially does not like regulating sectors like construction. Witness the defective apartment scandals or the pyrite or mica scandals. All represent failures on behalf of the State to enforce regulations and standards.

This Bill fits in with many efforts at regulation under a regulation regime that largely fails to regulate the problems in a sector. The question for us is whether this Bill addresses the safety issues in construction and quarrying. Forcing workers to have a licence will not, in itself, stop fatalities and injuries on building sites. What we need is a system of real oversight over standards and safety on sites. We need a HSA that actually enforces the safety regulations we do have.

The question again is whether this system of licensing for the various trades will, in itself, address the chronic safety issues affecting workers. The Bill seems to suggest that the issue is just with workers themselves rather than with their working environments or the pressures the industry puts on them to make profits and cut corners. The closest parallel to this system is the certificate of professional competency, CPC, courses that bus drivers, truck drivers and taxi drivers must undertake. In this case, the system is overseen by the Road Safety Authority and sees a plethora of private tutors giving designated courses on specific themes. Every five years, a new licence is issued to those drivers, without which they cannot work. Has the certificate of professional competency in driving resulted in a big improvement in road safety or standards? Most bus drivers, truck drivers and taxi drivers will say "No" and that it is largely a box-ticking exercise that gives the appearance of regulation while doing nothing to address the actual issues faced by workers that lead to accidents and injuries such as road conditions, long shifts, poor working conditions and so on. It is a regulation of sorts which largely leaves companies free to continue as before while placing the onus for safety on the drivers and their behaviour. It is extremely doubtful that this entire system has any effect, good or bad, on safety and I fear that is also true of this Bill.

I will take a minute to talk about why we sometimes regulate in all of the wrong areas. It is good that we are introducing this measure but simultaneously we need to introduce more regulation on the rights of workers at work. Late last year, four workers were sacked from Murphy International. Unite the Union believes they were unfairly singled out and victimised. One of them was a shop steward. As we know, Murphy International is part of a giant group of Murphy companies operating throughout Ireland, the UK and Canada. Last year, this group generated €1.47 billion in revenue. That is an enormous sum of money. That revenue was not generated by the group itself but by its committed workforce, including the four Unite members who were dismissed. Unite views an attack on any member as an attack on all 1.4 million members of the union and will do everything in its power and use every resource, including legal and public-facing campaigns, to ensure those members are reinstated. They are loyal members of staff with a combined 50 years of service. It is appalling that they were left to face Christmas, the winter and the ongoing cost-of-living crisis without an income. As we face into the worst economic and cost-of-living crisis, we see the financial clout of Murphy International. This is completely unacceptable when it leaves real workers facing a very tough future. I therefore argue that this regulation of workers' training should be combined with regulation of the behaviour of companies and regulations on workers' rights.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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On the face of it, introducing a licensing system for those working in construction and quarrying, areas which can be dangerous and where lives can be lost, seems reasonable, as does streamlining the process and introducing a licensing authority. Given the shocking figures the HSA has produced on fatal and non-fatal accidents over the years, there seems to be merit in bringing in measures and doing everything we can to improve safety in quarrying and construction. The figure of 1,616 fatal work-related accidents between 1989 and 2016 is pretty shocking. Although the figures seem to be on a downward trajectory over recent years, any death in construction or quarrying is unacceptable. All of that seems reasonable although precisely how this authority is going to work seems a little bit unclear from the legislation. It seems quite a bit will be pushed down the line and dealt with through ministerial order and secondary legislation. However, on the face of it, the Bill seems reasonable.

I will mention one issue I know of from my experience of working with construction workers protesting against bogus self-employment, that is, the phenomenon of cowboy contractors operating a crew of workers whom other tradespeople on the site would report as being clearly unqualified to do the jobs they are doing. Bogus self-employment facilitates that because it is not the main contractor who is directly responsible for the people working on the site, but a subcontractor who will say that all of his or her people are qualified, although there is no way of ensuring that is the case.

Tradespeople reported to me that often tradespeople who were blacklisted from sites because they were union activists could not get on sites while subcontractors had people working who were clearly not qualified to do the job they were doing and were doing substandard work. Indeed, I recall bricklayers, for example, pointing to the footings that were being done on council houses that were being built in my area. I think they are called footings, not that I am an expert in construction.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Has the Deputy done a crash course?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have worked on a few building sites having said that but I did not do footings.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Good man.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I did not do footings; I did dry lining and labouring.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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You had to clarify that. I was wondering about it.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I remember bricklayers pointing out that the work that was being done was substandard and that it would lead to cracks in the building and the occurrence of damp within a very short period. Of course, lo and behold, that is exactly what happened. The qualified bricklayer who had experience and knew what work should be done to do those things properly, was outside the gate protesting because he could not get on the site, along with many other people, due to them being known union activists and the main contractor did not want them anywhere near the site. That was, by the way, building council houses. As a result of the fantastic campaigning of building workers and groups such as Building Workers against the Black Economy, eventually, after a couple of decades of campaigning by construction workers, there have been some improvements in trying to clamp down on the issue of bogus self-employment. However, there is no doubt in my mind that this contributed to the lack of health and safety and to the dangers and accidents, and indeed fatalities, on building sites. To have some licensing around that to ensure people are properly licensed to do the things they are supposed to be doing, is good but the big issue is enforcement; not just enforcement of these things but enforcement of workers rights on sites generally. There needs to be inspections that are meaningful, frequent, the inspectorates monitoring health and safety and workers rights issues, should be properly staffed and resourced, and there needs to be a proactive approach so that they can actually see and identify when there are pressures on from the employers to cut corners and to not do things correctly. Even if people have the right licence, they are being put under pressure to cut corners. We know that we have suffered terrible consequences because of cowboy builders. However, often builders who were considered respectable, were still getting public contracts, and were still in business, were actually building buildings that were totally defective because it was cheaper to do it using the wrong or cheap materials or by cutting corners and putting pressure on tradespeople who often knew the things they were doing were wrong and were going to have pretty serious consequences, or that there were major health and safety breaches going on on a regular basis on particular sites, but were terrified to say anything because they would be flung off the site or blacklisted if they said a word about those things. That is more important. I am not saying it is not helpful to streamline these things. However, as Deputy Smith said, there is a bit of an implication that it is up to the workers to have the licence rather than up to the Government to make sure these things are being checked and inspected, that workers' rights are being respected on construction sites, and that employers are not putting pressure on workers to do things they should not, or not do things they should do. That is absolutely key.

I would be interested to know whether the officials or the Minister of State considers that all of this should apply to other areas where construction activities are involved but which are not necessarily construction sites in the sense of physically building or refurbishing buildings. The particular instance I am thinking about is film sites where movies are made and where stages and sets are constructed. Will all of this apply to them? I am curious to know. The officials or the Minister of State may or may not know but I have a long-standing interest in the concerns that have been raised by film crew about the lack of proper rights and health and safety on film sets, even though public money is being used to finance film production in this country, which I welcome. Indeed, that funding, which is up to about €100 million per year, is supposed to be tied to quality employment and training and to compliance with all employment legislation. According to many film crew, that is not actually what is going on on the sets. Indeed, workers raise health and safety issues and the issue of working excessive and dangerous hours. Building a film set can also be a very dangerous business. Workers are doing many, if not all, of the same type of activities that are done when building buildings such as using dangerous equipment and so on. People are being made work excessive hours, in excess of what they should legally be required to do, and they are not getting the sort of time off that is necessary for them to recuperate and so on. These pose very serious health and safety risks but many of them say if a person says anything about these things, he or she will not be asked back to work on the next film and will be actively blacklisted, as many of them say they have been, because they raised issues such as health and safety. I am interested in that regard in the register that the Minister of State is talking about and how that would work because one of the things that has been very actively resisted by the film producer companies is actually having a proper register of the different grades of people who work in the film industry. Now that they have finally been sort of pressured into establishing some kind of register, the people who are essentially going to put that register together are the self-employed contractors who hire and fire the crew. These are the very people who often are guilty of forcing people to work excessive hours and blacklisting them if they say anything about what is happening on the film set or make any complaints or the like. It is terribly important in that regard that any register needs to be insulated from that kind of thing and from any pressure there might be from employers to use that register in a way that discriminates against people who might be raising questions about health and safety or employment rights issues on a set or a site. I will leave it at that. Those are a few questions to which I would like to hear a response.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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If this Bill does as it promises, it will be a step forward. However, there is a real disconnect at the moment between SOLAS, ETBs, and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. This is causing issues with apprenticeships that do not need to be there. It is making it harder for apprentices to do the vital work they need to do, especially in house building. It is very important that the work on the right licensing and registration is brought up-to-date. For far too long, these issue have not been tackled and, therefore, it is important that they are now.

I also want to raise the potential for an ETB site for apprentices to be built on the northside of Cork city. They are currently accommodated in the Munster Technological University, MTU, campus in Bishopstown, which is at near capacity and has no room to build on.

There are great opportunities to build a centre like that in places like Hollyhill and Ballyvolane, which will be accessible to everyone but rooted in communities where apprenticeships have a much higher uptake. Deputy Ó Laoghaire and I met with the management in MTU and looked at the fabulous work being done there. There are, however, major issues concerning capacity and investment. There is an opportunity here. People say, "If you can't see it, you can't be it". There is no third level campus on the northside of Cork city. There is nowhere for students to see people progressing beyond their leaving certificate examinations. We must tackle this.

I also examined adaptation grants recently. There are great disparities in the amounts being awarded for these grants and the cost of the work. External issues, such as the cost of construction inflation and the high cost of insurance, have impacted. If this Bill reduces those costs, it would be good for everyone. We will, though, have to wait and see. Many of the accidents driving up insurance costs on sites do not even occur because of negligence. They occur because of the heights people have to work at, poor weather conditions and workers being under pressure trying to meet timelines to maximise profits.

One of the solutions is to examine modern building techniques and technologies. These could be transformative for the industry in reducing costs, delivering houses safely and increasing capacity. We could also speed up the whole process and see homes delivered. We need to do more in this area. The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, is taking years to approve new technologies that are being used in other jurisdictions. The Minister needs to examine this context in conjunction with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney. I say this because we wish to see homes built faster. I will give an example of why this is important. I dealt recently with a lady living in a house for 25 years who never had a problem. Contractors from a retrofitting company were brought in and now she has damp and leaks. If this company had been registered and licensed properly, she would not have these problems.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I call Deputy Canney. I understand he is sharing his time.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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Yes, I am sharing with Deputy Shanahan and the Rural Independent Group.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Deputy is sharing with Deputy Michael Healy-Rae. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill. It is important to say a few things about construction. Not everything we hear about construction is bad. There are a hell of a lot of good builders and subcontractors in construction and they are all doing the best they can. Construction is an industry where every site is different and throws up new challenges, and can even be different in respect of the type of ground and building being erected.

When we are talking about construction, we need to tackle several elements. Health and safety should be embedded in everyone from the day they even start thinking about going into construction. It should be introduced as a subject in secondary schools in the secondary cycle so that students, boys or girls, will get an understanding of safety in the construction industry and how it works. This is important because if they go on to do an apprenticeship, at least they will have a basic understanding of what to watch out for. The training of apprentices is extremely important. The rate being paid to apprentices starting off is a deterrent to more people going into these programmes. Equally, employers should also be given more encouragement to take on apprentices to ensure they can have the vital supply of skilled workers throughout the life cycle of the construction industry

Having said all that, in the context of having regulations, licensing and so on, the most important issue is there not is independent enforcement of these. I would like to mention a body that will actually make a difference in this regard. People talk about cowboy builders and all this kind of thing. I do not accept that. I do, however, believe we need regular independent inspections of sites. Every site should be inspected on several occasions and this should be done on an unannounced basis so people will feel they must have things right not alone to save lives and ensure they are not lost, but to ensure things are being done right for the sake of doing them right. I have experience of seeing fatalities occur on sites where I was working. I pass those sites now and I feel they are not ones to be proud of because we lost somebody on them. It is important, therefore, that we reduce and eliminate fatalities. The crucial point is that independent inspections need to be resourced properly and the Health and Safety Authority, HSA, needs to have the people on the ground to ensure things are being done right and not just being seen to be done right.

In the past, I have found that paperwork dominates everything and simple practical things on sites are lost out on. Often, when accidents happen, they can result from a combination of several small things. What everybody runs for then immediately is the paperwork to see if they are covered. We must examine this aspect. Why are we introducing the regulations? Why are we introducing a licensing authority for tutors? Why are we doing all this? It is to ensure the system is working better. If everybody is running and looking at paperwork when something goes wrong, though, that is when we are in real trouble. This is not about paperwork; this is about saving lives and ensuring our buildings are safe to live and work in. This is the important thing we must get right. We do not need a plethora of more paperwork and rules and regulations that are being enforced on paper. We must ensure they are enforced physically and practically on the ground. Construction is a great sector to work in for men and women. We must ensure that it is also a safe place to work and that people can be proud of their industry.

Matt Shanahan (Waterford, Independent)
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This is important legislation. It is to be welcomed that we will have a better standard of licensing of workers and tutors. We must be careful of overregulation of the construction sector as well, because it is a difficult enough one to try to recruit and get skilled labour into now. It takes a great deal of time. I am aware of companies in the past couple of years whose workers had to go for Safepass certification. These were people who had six, seven and eight years' experience of working on sites. They could not go onto a site until their Safepasses were updated and yet they could not get the Safepass module done because tutors were inundated. We must be careful, therefore, to ensure we have the capacity in the system to deal with the number of people in it. I would also like to see something in terms of, and perhaps the legislation will speak to this aspect, building materials and their examination in respect of safety. I have raised the standards affecting concrete specifically with the Minister previously. This issue has not been resolved this issue yet. It is still the responsibility of the local authorities. I wonder whether something can be built into the legislation whereby when the checks on safety and regulation are being done, materials could also be checked, especially the standard of building materials.

Beyond that, it is a fact of life that Ireland is going to have to build higher, generally, and in terms of our city builds and built infrastructure in particular. This poses advanced and significant questions for builders in respect of safety and training, especially concerning those people operating cranes, teleporters, forklifts and all those kinds of machines. This is an area where, as Deputy Canney said, we have had tragedies in the past. People have fallen down stairwells that were not properly guarded or in the context of guardrails on the edges of buildings. These aspects must be examined because they are the areas where most fatalities probably occur. After that, crush injuries probably come next, where materials are stacked and fall over or temporary walls fall over and this kind of occurrence.

There is a lot in this legislation, but it is important that we do not just create a body that will oversee and overregulate people to death when this is not doing what it is supposed to do, which is to improve the standards people are working under and improve the standard of our building output. This is what I would like to see. I hope there will be an opportunity for the legislation to cater to this element. For people who suffer at the hands of cowboy tradespeople, I also hope this legislation will in some way draw a line under that practice and people will now be able to ask properly for people's credentials upfront.

We need to make construction and the trades workable employment for people in future. Heretofore, it was the case that people would work in Ireland for a year or two and then when things became slack, they would go off to America or Australia. We now have a significant volume of pent-up demand and there is a long-term career for people in this sector, but they must be able to see it and gain a certain status from it.

I hope having trade qualifications which people can show upfront and allow them to describe themselves as certified in whatever they are doing will enable them to get a better rate of compensation and keep them in the industry for longer.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I would like to talk about people in the wet trades such as, for example, block layers, plasterers and people involved in construction. I am speaking in particular about young people in County Kerry. The Minister of State has a great, sound and solid working interest in this. I want him to try every endeavour he can to ensure we will be able to encourage young people to get involved in block laying, plastering and all of the trades it is extremely difficult to get people in at present. For example, getting young people into electrical or plumbing apprenticeships is possible and probable, but it is very hard. We will need plasterers and all types of tradespeople. We have to encourage people and make sure to get back to the system we had long ago, when we had AnCO and different things.

Great work is being done in Killarney and Tralee and I appreciate the efforts the Minister of State, his Department and others are making. I am thankful for that. I am thankful to the people in Kerry who are organising courses. We want to make it attractive for people to get involved in the industry. One thing that will not do that is some of the words we have had to listen to here this evening and with the indulgence of the Chair, I will call some of them out. They were downright bull's wool and rubbish. We listened to words and phrases such as "bogus", "cowboy builders", "cowboy contractors", "excessive and dangerous hours", "legally required hours off", "time to recuperate" and "people being blacklisted". Mother of God Almighty.

Every time certain people mention the word "work", in the same breath they use the word "protesting". What has gone wrong with people wanting to go to work and go on a building site without being worried about being outside the gate protesting? They are glad to go to work. They are working in a safe environment. I am very sorry that there are workplace accidents, but accidents have happened over the history pages and will continue to happen in the future.

In construction, we are operating in one of the most highly regulated sectors of society in Ireland. There are induction courses, every type of CPC and everything that is humanly possible. People have to have their Safe Passe cards. Drivers have to have their tickets. I can show the Minister of State the tickets I have in my pocket, which many other Members will also have. We have them because if we go onto a site tomorrow morning we are not entitled to walk onto it unless we produce our certificate. If we need to service a digger, we have to produce our certificates. That is what we are working in. I am not complaining about it.

When I hear other Members using terms like "bogus", "bogus operators" and "cowboy builders", it is rubbish. The vast majority of builders in Ireland are highly respectable, and the Minister of State knows that. The contractors we have, whether involved in construction, plant hire or whatever else, are highly respectable people. They are giving much-needed gainful employment.

Some Deputies in the House want to talk about protesting and time to recuperate. There is nothing wrong in the world wrong with going away in the morning and spending a day working. Some Deputies in the House seem to be like vampires and need garlic to keep people away. It is insane. They have a hatred of the word "work" because they do not like it. They would rather think of people doing nothing, staying home all day and getting paid to do it. That is not right. It is fine for people who cannot get work and are disabled. We are not doing enough for those people. The people who want to go to work should be encouraged to go to work.

I am glad and grateful that we have great contractors, but we do not have enough of them. Why is that the case? It is because in many cases they were hounded out of business by politicians acting the ape in the House and trying to put them down at every opportunity. Some people cannot stand up here and thank them for the work they are doing and their efforts. They work very hard. In many instances, they pay everybody else and the one person they do not pay is themselves. They are trying to run the show, keep their taxes in order and their noses clean and create more employment.

We have to create an environment in Ireland where we reward work and people who make an effort. I acknowledge the great people who go away every day and put on their boots, go out the door and do a day's work. We thank them for their efforts. It is doing nothing to help them when we hear Deputies raving about nonsense and rubbish, such as time to recuperate. We have the 10 o'clock day and 1 o'clock day and starting and stopping times. That is what people want. There are people here who think they are representing people by talking like that. The majority of the people they are talking about do not want them to be raving with that nonsense.

I am trying to calm down. I had to get that out of my system because of some of the absolute tripe I listened to here over the past couple of hours, when people were raving about absolute nonsense. Getting back to the trades and what we want, there is a situation in Ireland where, thankfully, construction is and will be picking up. I hope that it will and that the grants available will encourage more people to do work. I want old properties to be done up and places coming back into use. It will take people to do that. We want people in all of the different trades. I want to encourage young people in every way possible to get involved in construction. It is a great way of life.

I want young people to get involved in machinery and be lorry, track machine and dumper drivers. We want every type of person like that. They will be trained, taken care of, highly regarded and have a good living and way of life. That is to be encouraged. I ask the Minister of State to do everything possible to try to make it an environment that will be there for those people. He should not listen to the negativity about builders. Where I am from, we had great small builders, many of whom have gone to their eternal reward. They operated out of small vans and built a house or two a year. They were great people. They died and, very sadly, were not replaced. I want such people to come back. We also want larger contractors. Thankfully, in County Kerry we have bigger contractors but we do not have enough of them. We want more of them. They are great in our communities.

I heard people talking about quarries. If they went into a quarry they would not know the first end of a stone from the other end. They would not know what a crusher or loader is, but they are here talking as if they know what they are talking about. All they are doing is raving and going on with nonsense and rubbish. I thank the Minister of State. I ask him to look after young people who want to get involved in this industry.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am glad to have the opportunity to speak on this important matter. A good and vibrant construction industry is vital for the way forward for our country. As someone who has employed people all of my life, I understand and know what it is to employ people safely and pay them properly. Friday evening comes very quickly when businesses employ people who need and have to be paid. They will not last too long if we do not pay them. I am glad that people are now properly paid, which is very good because they work for their money and are entitled to that. We appreciate the people who work for us and those who work for everyone else because they are vital.

We have a highly regulated construction industry. We have Safe Pass cards and driver's tickets. People cannot drive if they do not have a ticket. People who have a ticket for one machine are not entitled to drive another unless they have a ticket for it as well. There are different tickets. I know all about them. I have a ticket for every machine. I can drive the biggest lorry on the road. I have a licence for that. I am proud to be the owner of those licences and tickets because we would not have them if we were not able to do these things and do them properly.

There are great people out there, but we must entice youngsters into the-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I have to stop the Deputy because the time has expired, but we will continue the next day. I am sorry to have to give him the red ticket.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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All right. I am glad to get this opportunity. We must do more to entice young people into the construction industry, because we are at a crisis point in trying to find young people to come on board. We need to address that situation urgently.