Dáil debates

Thursday, 26 January 2023

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

 

12:04 pm

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Léiríonn an taighde ón Choimisiúin Tithíochta go dtiteann spriocanna an Rialtais na mílte teach gann ón riachtanas tithíochta gach bliain. Tá teipthe ar a phlean. Caithfidh an Rialtas cúrsaí a athrú. Mura ndéanann sé sin, is é an rud atá i ndán do mhuintir na tíre seo ná géarchéim bhuan tithíochta atá ag dul in olcas. The Government's housing policy is pushing more families into homelessness, pushing up rents and house prices, forcing more and more of our young people to consider emigrating, damaging public confidence and undermining our economy. It is reported in today's edition of The Irish Timesthat unpublished research by the Housing Commission has found that the number of new build homes that will be needed is between 42,000 and 62,000 per year and yet this Government's failed housing plan only targets 33,000 homes per year - a plan destined to fail and a plan planning to fail. The targets in the Government's housing plan have been widely criticised not just by Sinn Féin but by industry and academic experts and now the plan has been fatally undermined by the very housing commission established by the Government.

The implications of this for struggling renters and those struggling to buy a home are very stark. The Government's housing plan is not failing on its own terms, but it is destined to fail. According to this research, even if the Government met its targets by 2030, there would be a shortfall of as many as 245,000 homes. That is alarming for everybody - those struggling for find affordable accommodation and those who will need affordable accommodation.

As far back as 2020, Sinn Féin argued that when pent-up demand for social and affordable housing is taken into account, the real housing demand was above 40,000 new homes per year but since then, we have had three years of Government under-supply despite continued population growth so it is obvious that the Government's housing targets need to be immediately revised significantly upwards. The current targets are not based on evidence or objective assessment of need. Instead they are the result of political manoeuvring - boasting that targets are met when the targets are clearly flawed. This must stop. Why must it stop? It is because it is too serious a matter.

Homelessness is reaching record levels with increases across every category, including children. Renters are facing extortionate rents with no capacity to save and little hope of ever owning their own home. According to the State of the Nation poll carried out by Virgin Media, more than half of renters now worry that they will not be able to pay their rent in the next 12 months. House prices have smashed Celtic tiger peaks with those struggling to get a foot on the property ladder now doubting if they will ever own their home. This is draining the hope and harming the life prospects of many of our people. A survey found that 92% of 18 to 24-year-olds now fear they will never be able to buy their own home. This is what our young people are thinking. No wonder that half of young Irish adults are considering emigration beaten down as they are by high living costs and the Government's housing crisis that is never ending.

The Government must change course and commit to revising these figures immediately. Otherwise it is condemning Irish people to a worsening and permanent housing crisis. Will the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage publish the findings of the Housing Commission's research that pointed out the fatal flaws in the Government's plan? Will the Government immediately revise its inadequate and deeply flawed housing targets? Will it give responsibility for verifying annually, reviewing and publishing data on housing need to a fully independent group that would include the ESRI and the Housing Agency?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Be very careful not to categorise a target as a limit on ambition. Of course, we want to smash those targets. All of us in this House want our younger people to be able to get a home and raise a family. This concern is not an exclusive commodity. It belongs to everyone. We are committed to doing everything we can.

We had a target last year of 24,600 houses. An hour ago, the CSO came out with the figures for last year. The figure was not 24,600; it was 29,851. This is way higher and I would like it to go even higher because we have a real problem that we must address but we should be honest and accurate about what is happening.

The report from the Housing Commission was commissioned by the Government. We asked for it. We are the people who brought forward that analysis. The commission will presents its work in July as part of getting the analysis right to get the solutions right. We will need to do more and go further and higher because more people are coming into the country than were expected. The commission's analysis relates to 2050 while the Housing for All targets relate to 2030 so the Deputy needs to be careful that he is not comparing apples and oranges. Of course we must go higher than that 33,000 limit. The question is how do we do it and the quality of the housing. This is about housing in the right place. It ain't just a numbers game. We need to make sure we follow through on the national planning framework so we build new communities with high-quality housing. This is important along with the numbers.

One of the key vehicles for delivering it is the Land Development Agency because the State will have to take a bigger role. As I understand it, Sinn Féin opposed the Land Development Agency and would get rid of it. This would be a mistake because the Land Development Agency provides a mechanism whereby we can use public land to develop cost-rental housing that is in the right place and is high-quality and lower-cost with a saving of 30%. Sinn Féin would throw that away straightaway if it was in Government. I fear what this would do to the delivery of housing numbers. Deputy Ó Broin is nodding. He agrees Sinn Féin would get rid of the Land Development Agency. How then could you get access to and use lands in Dublin Port or at Heuston Station?

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Land Development Agency cannot get these lands. It does not have the power to get these lands.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes we can and we will.

Photo of Thomas GouldThomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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When?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I presume we agree that cost rental is one of the main parts of the solution - one of the main parts of ramping up the numbers. The Land Development Agency is perfectly suited and is the right agency to deliver that sort of expansion. There will be no shortage of funding and ambition. It takes time and is not easy with the cost of building having gone up. We can bring it down by using the Land Development Agency on public land as well as the private sector. We need so many different parts of the solution and that is what we are committed to in Housing for All.

Project Tosaigh, which involves €0.5 billion, will help make that happen. In instances where the market is failing and where those build-to-rent apartments, particularly in the centre of our towns and cities are not going to built, I believe we should step in and take on that development and not be afraid of the State doing more.

Photo of Thomas GouldThomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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When?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Today.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Gould would probably object to it.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gould is not yet leader of his party.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Nobody disagrees about the scale and need for urgency but having increased delivery last year beyond the target, I would like to see us do the same every year of this Government's tenure and into the tenure of the next Government because the Housing for All strategy is the correct way to address the problem.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister, Deputy Ryan, said money is not an issue and in fairness, it might not be because of the money allocated by these Houses to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, he could not even spend €1 billion, which was the amount that was unspent in housing last year. A total of 2,500 fewer social houses than what was promised last year were delivered. This is the record of this Government.

The Government set up this commission. It should have looked at housing need before it came out with its flawed plan. What Sinn Féin, academics and researchers have been telling it, namely, that the numbers are not adequate, has now been proven. The Housing Commission is saying the Government is way off target when it comes to what is needed. The target needs to be between 42,000 and 62,000 every year.

The problem, which is so serious, is that this Government is planning to fail. The consequences of this will be desperate. Half of young people are planning to emigrate while others are locked into spiralling rents they cannot afford in a cost-of-housing crisis. Thousands upon thousands of people are living in emergency accommodation, which is becoming a permanent feature of this Government.

Does the Government now accept that the targets it has set in Housing for All are fatally flawed on the basis of the research by the Housing Commission and that they need to be immediately revised upwards and delivered on?

12:14 pm

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That analysis is for the years to 2050. Ours is to 2030.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Every year.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We absolutely need to go further because there are more people coming into our country and the likely change in household characteristics means that we should err on the side of more. Deputy Doherty says we are planning to fail. That is not true. One of the biggest problems is people objecting to planning.

Photo of Darragh O'BrienDarragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Like Sinn Féin's guys.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Talk to An Taisce.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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One of the biggest problems is that one cannot get projects delivered quickly because every time we submit applications, particularly in areas closer to the centre where the density is slightly higher, then there are objections in the planning system.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is statistically not true. There are 90,000-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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They come from councillors right across the country in many instances because it is not always popular, it is not always the easy answer and people do not necessarily always want change when it comes to their own local areas.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is deflecting and distracting from his own failure.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Regarding how we speed things up, lack of finance will not be an issue for the State. The State may have to do more because with the high interest rates, the private sector will not be able to do as much.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Government is not spending the money.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Government is not meeting its targets.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please stop interrupting the Minister.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The delivery requires support at council level right across the country-----

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Agreed.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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-----for the planning urgency we need to deliver the housing. No party in this House can point fingers at anyone else about this.

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should look around himself.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Planning is not the problem. Lack of Government delivery is the problem.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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A little order, please.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we stop all of this back and forth, please? Let us conduct ourselves properly.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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In a few minutes, the Save our Forests - Save our Land coalition, which Labour is glad to support, will gather outside Leinster House to voice our opposition to the Coillte-Gresham House deal. It is a deal which we believe is wrong on many levels. I have already voiced my grave concerns about it in this House, as have my colleagues, Deputies Kelly and Sherlock. It will fundamentally be an arrangement which will facilitate the handing over of millions of euro of public money into the wallets of private investors and vulture funds. We are gravely concerned about that. As we know, the deal has drawn immense criticism and outrage from across all sectors, urban and rural alike, from environmentalists, farmers and local communities. Many of our constituents in Dublin Bay South voiced serious disquiet to us, as the Minister will know. Even Deputies on Government benches have made clear their opposition to the partnership between Coillte and Gresham House.

It begs the question of what is Government policy on forestry in Ireland. If there is concern on Government benches about this deal, as there appears to be, then will it be abandoned? Will there be a change in tack to address the crisis in the forestry sector? There is a bigger issue here too. The reality is that the forestry sector has been in crisis for many years. The crisis does not only affect those working in forestry but clearly has a significant impact on our ability to meet our vital climate targets because we cannot meet those targets unless every sector is working towards them. We cannot meet them without large-scale afforestation. The Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss was clear that State-owned woodlands should be recognised and managed as a strategic, long-term national asset for the common good. The State must take control of planting biodiverse forests and put an end to the expanse of clear-fell monoculture across the country. We all know, and I know the Minister knows, that Ireland's ancient native forests have been devastated by hundreds of years of unsustainable mismanagement.

We must prevent further destruction by profit-hungry funds but we do not even have a working forestry programme. The Government is meeting just one quarter of its own afforestation targets. The licensing system is in disarray, with delays of two years for the approval of afforestation licences.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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There have been no licences.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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The inadequacy of the plans is baffling. It seems that the Government cannot see the wood for the trees, if I may say. Failures in the licensing system have made the large-scale planting of trees and woodlands an impossible endeavour for many farmers and nurseries. The delays are leading to many dropping out of the system. I have been told that approximately one third of those approved for planting are dropping out before any trees can be planted. Instead of proceeding with the Gresham House deal, why is the Government not focusing on reform of the afforestation system and making afforestation a viable option for farmers and landowners in Ireland? Will the Minister share the Government's policy to explain why the Government is not focusing on this? If this is not the Government's preferred model, as it appears the Gresham House deal is not, then has Coillte gone rogue on the Government?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The licensing system is no longer in disarray.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Minister of State, Senator Pippa Hackett, has changed that and turned it round.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No licences have been given.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Deputy Bacik said there is not a programme. There is a programme.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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That is a ridiculous thing to say.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is specific, real and fully funded.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is a €1.3 billion funding mechanism which fundamentally-----

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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The Government has only planted 2,000 ha this year.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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If I can be heard, Ceann Comhairle and Deputy Sherlock.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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The Minister is way off target.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is Deputy Sherlock's leader's question. Let the leader get an answer.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I need to correct Deputy Bacik. What she said, that there is not a programme, is not true. There is a specific programme.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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It is not functioning. It was suspended.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It was only introduced in November and it is transformative. It will not just be the State which steps up on this.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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The Minister needs a reality check.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Farmers right across the country, under that new programme, will have a critical role. There is a range of new, closer-to-nature agroforestry solutions which we have not delivered in the last 90 years of forestation.

Photo of Richard O'DonoghueRichard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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The ash dieback.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is fundamentally changing and needs to go further.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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No licences have been issued.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Part of that change will be a change to Coillte. It needs to change. It has done a brilliant job but it was legislated for in the late 1980s when the emphasis and focus was on privatisation and commercial lumber production. That has changed. Coillte's mandate will be changed. It is already changing towards a closer-to-nature model. We recognise that what has been done with forestry, while it delivered acres and lumber, did not deliver better biodiversity or a better nature solution in our country. Coillte too is part of that change. To help it do that, I believe we need to look at the state aid rules which, in 2003, under legal challenge, restricted what Coillte can do. We will go to Brussels, as we are doing for a variety of different issues related to climate change, to get different rules. We will also get Coillte involved in afforestation on public lands and other lands which are not covered under the likes of this deal that was done with the private sector. That private investment in forestry is taking place anyway. The Coillte deal will at least allow it to be open forest.

In my mind, this cannot be the main solution because the scale of change that will be highlighted in the land use review that this Government is introducing, which will be the defining indication of what type of forestry is needed where, is not just about the number of acres but how we restore nature and tackle the biodiversity crisis as well as the climate crisis, which clear-fell monoculture systems do not do. We will need some timber for lumber production for use in buildings and so on. We are not saying there should be absolutely none.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Rubbish.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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In my mind, the central part of our new forestation system is where the State and farmers, primarily, as well as private developers, will be involved in delivering new, more natural, more resilient forests.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As opposed to private venture funds.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is what we will deliver.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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The Minister has accused me of misrepresenting the Government's position but the reality, as he admitted himself, is that there is a forestry strategy which is not operational. It is not having any impact.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It was launched two months ago.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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The key problem is that it is not having an impact. We are hearing from those involved in forestry and nurseries, including farmers and environmentalists, that it is simply not operational. The Minister of State, Senator Hackett, told the Seanad earlier this week that the state aid application has not yet been submitted. The Minister said it himself. He plans to go to Brussels but has not gone yet. Once again, the Government is heavy on ambition and setting targets, but light on delivery and actual outcomes. We need to see outcomes here. The Gresham House deal will not deliver the necessary outcome. It is not just us in Opposition making these critiques. In a leaked document which the Irish Examinerreports on today, the European Commission has criticised Ireland's forestry policy in a scathing letter, highlighting particular concerns about planting on peatlands and the impact on birds. The Commission has been critical of this. The state aid application which is the bedrock of the Government's proposed change in forestry policy has not even been submitted yet. It is hard to see how we can expect or anticipate any real delivery of change in forestry.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time is up.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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The Coillte deal is not the answer. The Minister said that himself. His Government colleagues have been critical of it too.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The reason that programme, which was only launched a matter of weeks ago, is going to work is that there has been a huge increase in premiums, particularly for farmers, who are getting a 20-year premium as opposed to a 15-year premium for others.

The grants cover the cost of plantation, tax free.

12:24 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When is the Government going to apply?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The premium comes every year, tax free. The sale of the lumber at the end of that goes to the owner tax free.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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We know all of that. It was suspended.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When is the Government going to apply?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is going to lead to a massive expansion.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When is the Government going to apply?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is happening. You would want your head examined to not start investing in forestry under the programme that has been put in place.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is shocking.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The truth, from my perspective as Minister with responsibility for climate, is that we will not only need 8,000 ha per annum but a multiple of that.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Maybe write to the Minister or something.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The critical question, to go back to the matter of quality not just quantity, is that of where. We made a mistake in the first stage of the evolution of forestry in the State where it was on the marginal lands on peaty soils in uplands areas where we drained the soils and released carbon. It is now going to have to come down and will have to be integrated. Many farmers will plant and continue farming but they also have a forestry stream within the farm.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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When is the state aid application going in?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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This is happening.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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This is real life that we are talking about.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Time, please.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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This was launched weeks ago. Mark my words, because it is so generous in regard to the changed premiums, it will take off-----

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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This is Jesuitical nonsense.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Minister.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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-----as well as Coillte and other private operators being involved in afforestation.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please. We are over time.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Gresham deal is not the future of Irish forestry.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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It is not. We are agreed on that.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It cannot be. The future has to be more diverse, better for water quality and better for nature as well as providing -----

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Minister adhere to the time allocation, please.

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We are providing the forestry and we are driving it on.

Photo of Matt CarthyMatt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Driving it into the ground, Charlie.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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He is lost in the woods.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Now, now.

Photo of Richard O'DonoghueRichard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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Ask the farmers about ash dieback.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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He is lost in the forest, I am afraid.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is not a comedy hour that we are having. Can we have Deputy Tóibín, please?

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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You would not know from the last two weeks of grudge politics between Fine Gael and Sinn Féin but the crises that are besetting the people of Ireland at the moment have not gone away whatsoever. Some 80% of the people of this State are struggling with the cost-of-living crisis. That seems to have been forgotten about by the political establishment. Figures provided to me by the Minister for Finance show that the Government is profiting in terms of VAT from the crisis. Last year, the Government received more in VAT on fuel and energy than ever before when many families are living on overdrafts and many more are in hock to moneylenders. Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party are taking more in VAT and fuel taxes than they did in any previous year. The VAT on electricity last year reached record heights of €381 million.

People struggling to pay for the heating of their homes pay 40% more on VAT on electricity last year than the previous year. Hard-pressed motorists are paying 30% more on petrol than they did in the previous year. Diesel is 20% more. Cumulatively, they have spent €700 million on VAT on those two fuel sources. VAT on gas and oil and solid fuel is reaching record highs. That is before we even talk about the Government's imposition of carbon taxes. Yes, the Government gave a few bob back but it pilfered that money from people's pockets in the first place.

Many people are looking nervously at the planned increase in fuel excise duty that the Government plans for February. The Minister has stood before us many times and said there is nothing more that this Government can do to help people with the crisis in the cost of living but there is. What is said is patently untrue. The Government could do what the Spanish Government did and stop hammering people and reduce the VAT on fuel. Will the Minister categorically say there will be no rise in fuel excise in February?

Another issue which is hitting people really hard in their pockets is that of mortgage interest rates. People are struggling to pay them now. Most mortgage holders will be paying far more in the next year. European Central Bank rate rises mean that tracker mortgage holders will have to fork out an additional €3,000 on their mortgages on average. However, the people who are most hammered are the 100,000 mortgage holders who have been sold out to the vulture funds. Families in the grip of those vulture funds will be paying rates of as high as 7% and they will not be able to lock into fixed rates. This is a two-tier mortgage market. It was created by the last Government and it is presided over by this one. Some 100,000 families are now second-class citizens among mortgage holders. They have no protection from profiteering mortgage vulture funds.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy. Time is up.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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This cohort suffered most in the housing crisis and now it is most exposed to the increases in interest rates. What will the Government do to protect these families?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Nearly a year ago, Vladimir Putin sent his tanks into Kyiv and set the world ablaze by putting energy prices through the roof. They had already risen because he had been turning off the tap deliberately in advance and using energy as a weapon of war. The inflation that resulted and the cost-of-living crisis that came from that was unprecedented, probably since the early 1970s and the oil-price crisis. Any independent economic analysis of any credit or note would assess that this Government's response in the last year protected our people. It did not adopt some of the populist politics that the Tories and others here argued for, which would undermine the economic credibility of the State and its ability to protect the people. What we were able to do this by reducing excise duty, VAT, public transport fares and the cost of childcare, by providing each household with €800 upfront credit payments, by increasing social welfare payments both in once-off and permanent rises in payments, by introducing restrictions and moratoriums on cutting off energy supply and other measures. I could go on. There was a whole range of measures that the ESRI and others have analysed and said that we got it right and that we have protected the most vulnerable in particular in this incredible and unprecedented time. We do not know what will happen in the coming year. Please God, that war will come to an end. We have said clearly that we will continue to protect our people but we should not go down the route of populist solutions where we say we will never raise another tax and we will not reverse any of the VAT cuts. In the end that would lead us to a position where our economy would not be sound and we would not be able to protect and provide for our people into the future. In that populist route lies real danger.

There is a responsibility on Government to ensure the basic economic protection of the State's finances so that we can provide the measures when we needs them. We did it during the Covid pandemic and we unwound the measures in a way that worked. That is what we will do again this spring and what we will need to do.

We will be attentive if circumstances change. We will keep an eye on international prices. We must keep an eye on what the economy is doing, on employment and on people's welfare. I refer to false simple promises that we would never reverse a single measure and that we would not do what we did during Covid, namely, bring in big supports and appropriately withdraw them, although not off a cliff edge, to which we are all committed and on which we are all agreed. We would not do this on the never-never, where it is put off and at every local election and general election to come, we would say we will not do it now because it will be politically unpopular. That reckless way would really endanger our people and the protection of our people which is what we want to do.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I do not know what question the Minister answered but he did not answer my question. Putin does not set the VAT rates in this State. Putin does not regulate the vulture funds in this State. In those two aspects, he is irrelevant to the conversation. The electricity credit is less than all the increases in all the fuel and energy taxes in the last year. The Government has taken more money out of people's pockets than it has given back with the electricity credit.

On mortgages, the vulture funds bought them at bargain basement prices. They should have a lower cost base but they are putting families to the pins of their collars. They are pushing many families into arrears. Maybe that is what they want; maybe they want to crystalise their investments now when prices are so high. The Government said people would be protected. Yesterday I asked the Governor of the Central Bank what levers the Central Bank had to protect families being charged 7% by vulture funds. He said they have none. That is the key issue. What will the Government do to help those families? Will it regulate those vulture funds and maybe even put a super-normal profit tax on those vulture funds in the same way that has been done to energy companies? What will it do about VAT and the protection of mortgage holders?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is the job of the Central Bank.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The regulation of law is set by the Government.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Central Bank is the regulator.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The Government -----

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, please stop this.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We set the broad policy context around not having consumers ripped off but that is the mandate of the Central Bank.

There are 2,000 people there with real expertise in the area and a clear mandate from Government to say we do not want anyone exploiting or getting an undue profit or an unduly high interest rate. That is their job. If we started to become the regulator again, where would that end? That got us into a lot of trouble in the past where people thought the political system could do the job of the Central Bank. It does not work

12:34 pm

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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That is because Government does not do regulation

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will try to deal with the Deputy's prime question on energy supports. Those electricity credits have been well timed and well placed. They particularly have helped families in default or at risk of default and not able to pay their bills. Each time they have kicked in, we have seen a dramatic drop in the number of families at most stress. Therefore, it has been exactly the right measure.

By contrast, at the time there was talk about all sorts of weird caps which were completely uncertain and would not have delivered functional support. The energy credit has not been the only one. It has come with all the other measures - about 12 by my count. We need to wean off those and do it in a balanced way, subject to what happens in the war.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The lack of clarity or any concrete commitment from the Government to extend the financial supports for businesses and households, as has just been discussed, and to mitigate the ongoing high cost-of-living crisis means people are now facing a cliff edge, which the Taoiseach said they would not face. The Government has also completely failed to provide on any clarity as to whether the reduced 9% VAT rate for electricity, gas, petrol and diesel will continue beyond 1 March. People need certainty.

The lack of clarity from the Government in this area is causing significant stress and anxiety for tens of thousands of people. Furthermore, the hospitality sector, which employs 260,000 people and whose season kicks off on 1 March, with bookings going on at the moment, is being left in limbo once again as the Government has made no decision on whether the VAT rate for the sector will continue on the temporary lower rate beyond 1 March. They need certainty. They need to fill rooms, take bookings and employ people.

Leaving such families, motorists, rural residents and the entire hospitality sector in a state of limbo in the middle of a catastrophic cost-of-living crisis is outrageous and underlines the wishy-washy nature of the Government. Ministers are in here defending the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and dealing with everything bar what they should be dealing with. They are letting the big guys like Gresham House take over our country. Look after the daoine óga and daoine beaga, please.

The lack of clarity in this policy is incredible. It is clear the Government lacks any leadership here, or is it that the three parts are fighting with each other? I heard the Minister say on radio that he thought that excise duty on fuel would need to increase because the cost of fuel had come down. Does he really want to cripple motorists, hauliers and everybody else?

Inflation and the cost-of-living pressures affecting families are extremely harsh at the moment. Families and small businesses deserve to know what is happening. They will deal with it as best they can, but they deserve certainty. The Government's failure to provide clarity here is appalling. I know Government backbenchers are in agreement with what we are saying here, but the tail is wagging the dog because the Minister stated he wanted excise duty to increase again along with carbon tax and everything else. Earlier he said we should come down from the mountains and plant trees on good land. I say he should go back into the hills and stay there with the wolves and everybody else if he will not look after the people he was elected to look after. He can plant whatever trees he wants to plant in the wetlands and the wolves will keep him warm at night. However, they will not heat homes, provide food on the table or support the 260,000 jobs in the hospitality sector. Is the Government trying to wipe out that industry altogether?

We need decisive action. The Minister told Deputy Tóibín that there would not be a cliff edge and the Government would deal with it. When? It is only four and a half weeks until 1 March and what will we do then? Will we wait for another crisis?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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At the end of July and in early August last summer when the price hikes really hit, my fear was that the impact would be far worse than the impact of Covid. That scale of price increase, which no one could predict would continue or otherwise, would be devastating for Irish business. Even though prices have come down dramatically since that spike, it has been very challenging for many businesses. That is why we introduced the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, one of the other measures that was introduced as part of the range of different solutions to the problem - I did not mention it to Deputy Tóibín. It has been surprising, we need to look at the real reasons, that the uptake has been much lower than expected. We will look at that as part of the review of the range of measures.

No one knows for certain what is happening with energy prices; it depends on the war. Five or six weeks ago I believe I said publicly that I expected gas prices to remain at their very high level for the next two years. That was the best advice from the International Energy Agency and the European Commission and any analysis available to me. It has changed in the past five or six weeks for a variety of reasons. Europe has not used as much gas. The stores in Europe are nearly 80% full, whereas this time last year they would have been down at about 30%. We are going into this refilling season in spring and summer. It has also been a slightly warmer winter than average. For that and other reasons, the price of gas has come down very significantly from what it was five or six weeks ago. That will not kick into home bills for some time. It will depend because each supply company has different circumstances in terms of how far forward they are hedged. Some might even be hedged a year in advance. They might have bought gas at very expensive prices last summer and autumn and consequently would have very high price points into this year and up to the end of the year. Others may not have hedged their position and may be able to bring their prices down quickly. There are about 13 different supply companies, all of which have different circumstances. However, we want to bring that down.

The Deputy will recall the highest price of petrol and diesel was about €2.15 a litre.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Half of that was tax.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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However, that was the price people were paying at the forecourt, which is what matters to people. It is slightly different between gas and petrol, but the price has come done to about €1.50, so it has changed

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is €1.67.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is complicated because the euro to dollar exchange rate affects the price as well as the price of oil. The price of oil has been relatively steady at about $80 a barrel on the international markets. In those circumstances we need to consider restoring our tax base. The benefit of excise and VAT is that they help to provide a stable income which allows us to pay for the public service pay increases we need to deliver. They allow us to provide for social welfare increases and go further in October's budget. I could outline a long list of what we need spend money on. There is a responsibility to retain the income stream to pay for those vital services for our people.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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We all know what the Government spends it on, but driving people into penury is not the answer. While the Minister will not acknowledge it, it is not complicated to calculate the amount of tax the Government takes for each litre of petrol and diesel. It is as simple as that.

Will the Minister to confirm to the Dáil today whether the 9% VAT rate for the hospitality sector, the temporary business energy support scheme, TBESS, which he mentioned, and the excise cut for petrol and diesel will be extended beyond the end of February? That is a simple question. People need certainty. The 260,000 people employed in the hospitality sector and their employers need certainty.

The Minister referred to a slow uptake of the TBESS; it is confined to electricity. I have been contacted by people using oil or gas other than town gas and could not get the TBESS. The Government is making it tricky. The Minister is making it sound as if people did not need or want it. These are the games he is playing with people's lives.

The public deserves a government that will provide certainty. It appears we will not get certainty and rather it will be day after day and issue after issue. People need clarity and certainty that they will be able to heat their homes and go to work. Industry, farms and everybody else who depends on these measures need to know they will continue and they will have certainty.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We will not be able to decide that on Leaders' Questions on Thursday, 26 January.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is a great con.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We need to do that collectively as a Government, taking into account a variety of circumstances, recognising that while prices have come down very significantly, they are still very high by historical comparison. In our economy we need to ensure the overall economic approach protects the most vulnerable, retains employment and helps businesses because some businesses are still in particular difficulties.

Photo of Richard O'DonoghueRichard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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The Government taxes the working class and the squeezed middle.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We need to try to ensure we have an economy that serves our people. That is the purpose of our economic policy.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Gresham House.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The income streams that come from a stable tax base are part of a social democratic approach Government.

It is so easy to make promises where you will not have to pay for anything-----

12:44 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I did not say that.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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-----and we will provide for everything. There is a responsibility to balance income and expenditure.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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We need certainty.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The State needs to expand. We need more services, houses and hospitals. We need to pay for them by creating a sound economy.