Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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159. To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine the purpose of the discrimination between the funding available to male and female applicants aged 41-55 years under the TAMS scheme; the steps he will take to enable all applicants to access the higher level of funding regardless of their gender; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [61352/22]

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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I ask the Minister to set out the purpose of the discrimination between the funding available to male and female applicants aged 41 to 55 years under the TAMS scheme. What steps will he will take to enable all applicants to access the higher level of funding regardless of their gender? Will he make a statement on the matter?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will be as well aware as I am that we have had a massive cultural challenge over the years around women not being treated equally with men when it comes to farm inheritance because of cultural perceptions. It has been the case for too long that a son or nephew is often preferred over a niece or daughter regardless of interest levels. This has led to a situation where only 13% of our farm holders are women, even though the latest census figures show that 70,000 women in the country are involved in farm management and in actual active farming. I want to address this. Obviously, the Minister of State, Senator Hackett. wants to address it. The Government very much wants to address it. To help to break down this cultural barrier, we have taken the unprecedented step of allocating 60% grant aid for female farmers as part of a CAP initiative. We want to encourage that. We want to get the message out there that it is not acceptable to have such a low level of female farm holders. We want to improve that and this measure can help to do that. It is not a silver bullet but it is a very clear message.

In other areas of the agrifood sector such as the food business, and in the educational courses provided around the country through Teagasc, further education providers, institutes of technology and universities, the representation of women is fantastic alongside men. There is great participation. If one calls a vet to come to the yard for an animal in need, it is more likely that a female vet will arrive than a male vet because there are more female vets emerging from our colleges. It is not yet being seen at a farm level within the farm gate. We want to address that and change that to get the message out there that we want to see more female farmers. It is great to see and we will support it.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Of course it is welcome that more female vets are coming out of the agricultural colleges, but the reality is that it is to do with the points system. When one looks at the very top achievers when it comes to third level entry points, one sees that they are often women rather than men. Just because a person has obtained an excellent number of points - regardless of being male or female - it does not mean that he or she will become an excellent vet or doctor. I do not want to digress.

I am glad the Minister referred to messaging. This is about tokenism rather than any actual impact it would have. The idea that when a farmer is deciding who to leave his or her farm to, he or she will decide to leave it to his or her niece rather than his or her nephew because she would get a better TAMS grant is ridiculous. What is not ridiculous - it is very real - is that if a farmer has a son and a daughter who are interested in farming, and both of them inherit the farm and are over a certain age, one of them will get a far greater grant rate than the other if they apply under this scheme. Not alone is this a little ridiculous, but it may not be lawful. I presume the Equal Status Act applies to the activities of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine as well.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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If Deputy McNamara has any more ideas about what we can implement, the Ministers of State, Senator Hackett and Deputy Heydon, and I are very open to them. We want to change things to see more women coming into farming. We want to support it. This is why we are pushing the barriers out, getting the message out there strongly, and actually doing it in terms of supports. If there is anything else we can do, we will certainly look at that and be very open to it.

I wish to update the Deputy on the appointment of a former Tánaiste and Minister for agriculture, Mary Coughlan, who was the first Minister for agriculture in the country, as chair of the dialogue on women in agriculture.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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The first female Minister for agriculture.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Of course, the first female Minister. It is great to be serving alongside the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, as the first female Minister of State in this role at Cabinet level. We have appointed the former Minister, Mary Coughlan, to chair the dialogue on women in agriculture, which will take place on St. Brigid's Day, 1 February. This will bring together all stakeholders and farm representatives within the country to gather more ideas and proposals on how we can make a difference in this regard. I look forward to that. If the Deputy has any proposals or suggestions, our ears are fully open and we will look at driving them on.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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The first suggestion I have is that the Minister would end the discrimination, regardless of its motivation. I believe the times are gone when a farmer would leave his farm to his eldest son regardless of whether he wanted it, or indeed would leave it to a son over a daughter. Most farmers now are relieved if any of their children are interested in farming, or, if they have no child, any nieces or nephews are interested in farming. That can be a relief to them because it is a difficult life and it is not very profitable. Obviously, farming is hugely profitable in the dairy sector but that faces its own challenges. With the rest of farming, I suggest that commensurate to the hours that people work, there are far better incomes to be obtained elsewhere. Most farmers are very relieved if any of their children are interested in farming, or any successor is interested in farming. I think the days of primogeniture or leaving it to the eldest son are well and truly over. That is a good thing. Of course I welcome that the Department is bringing people together to discuss this, but maybe it is coming a little late. Farmers have moved on, frankly.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I would expect that the equality legislation would prevail in all assistance that is available, and that the equality legislation would enable equal participation of male and female farmers. If the grant aid varies between male and female applicants, obviously there is a slight challenge there to the equality legislation. I hope this can be overcome.

Pippa Hackett (Green Party)
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As a female farmer, I can say that there is not equality. That is the problem. There is not equality on the ground. Female farmers own 13% of the farms. There are cultural elements there and farms are not being left to girls, daughters and nieces, but it is difficult. There are amazing female farmers out there but it is difficult to be a female farmer. When one goes to the mart, it is 95% men.

It can be a difficult place to go to. One can go to a knowledge transfer group. That can be challenging. I have spoken to women who have gone to knowledge transfer groups who do not go any more. One element of that is that we are putting together female-only knowledge transfer groups because that is what we have heard female farmers would like. For us not to respond to what we hear from female farmers would be us not standing up for them. We are trying to make this a more equal space, and those are some of the many mechanisms we are trying to put in place to do that.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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If the Minister of State puts her hand up at the Sixmilebridge mart next Saturday morning, I guarantee her there will be no discrimination. They will take her bids.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We might leave the last word to the female Minister of State.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Senator Pippa Hackett):

We are trying to bring that equality into the system. That is what we are working hard to do.