Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad the Minister of State is in the House to listen to this. What he has to try to get into his mind is what it would be like if tonight the people who are here had to sleep in a 20-year-old caravan or mobile home that is damp, in this kind of cold weather, and had to do this on a council halting site in this day and age. Quite rightly, we give out about the conditions for people looking for asylum and for students. Pettymindedness has done a great disservice to Travellers. When the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, spoke to the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community, he told us the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage had "rolled out a six-month pilot preferential caravan loan scheme in four local authority areas." The scheme would allow participants to draw down up to €30,000. He said the Department hoped to roll out the scheme nationwide in 2022, following a review of the pilot. It did roll it out nationwide, following a case taken to the ombudsman by a woman in my constituency. What did the Department do? It made the scheme nationwide but it put a quota on the number of caravans or mobile homes. In a case in Galway, there were 24 applicants living in atrocious conditions and the Government decided to allocate four caravans. At a time when a decision was made last week - I am not against the decision - to spend hundreds of millions on student accommodation, could we not give each Traveller family that needs a new caravan the money to get it? This is a shame on our nation. I hope the Minister of State goes back to the Department and puts this right forthwith.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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One of the recommendations of the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community was:

The audit [in recommendation No. 68] should include the mobile homes or caravans that are used as permanent dwellings. In the case of people/families wishing to remain living in caravans/mobile homes where they are deficient, they should be immediately replaced by new caravans/mobile through and expanded “loan scheme” or by direct supply by the relevant local authority. These should be funded out of the budget allocation for “traveller housing” and the quality of these caravans should be monitored in the short term by Cena to ensure they are of good quality. In the longer term this role should transfer to the National Traveller Accommodation Authority. The amount offered in the Caravan loan scheme should be monitored regularly to ensure that high-standard residential quality mobile homes can be afforded".

Deputy Ó Cuív made the point about what was said to the committee by the Minister of State. There was an expectation that after that pilot, which happened back in 2021, it would be reviewed in early 2022. We are still facing situations where Traveller families cannot access these more efficient mobile homes, which they need. This is how the State is treating the Travelling community. Travellers are only 1% of the population but they have the highest suicide rate, the highest number of people in homelessness and the lowest lifespan compared to the general population. We just keep treating them abysmally. There has to be some accountability about these recommendations, what has been promised to the Travelling community and what is not done. We have to set up a follow-on committee from the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community, in order to have oversight of what we recommended. That needs to be put in place. I know the Ceann Comhairle has not been well but we need to get that back up and running again because incidents like this have to stop.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I am familiar with the matter from many of my Traveller friends in my home town, whom I have seen in conditions that have been completely inadequate. I have also seen great strides being made. There is no doubt that Government is committed to ensuring that the actions the Deputies spoke about will be met in terms of resourcing. It is important, particularly in the depths of winter, that Traveller families are not living in substandard conditions. It is unacceptable.

The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 provides that local authorities have a statutory responsibility for the assessment of the accommodation needs of Travellers and the preparation, adoption and implementation of multi-annual Traveller accommodation programmes, TAPs, in their areas to meet the identified accommodation need. The role of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is to ensure that there are adequate structures and supports in place to assist the authorities in providing such accommodation, including a national framework of policy, legislation and funding.

The Department originally introduced a pilot preferential caravan loan scheme in a selected number of local authorities over a six-month period from July to December 2021, following consultation with local authorities and other stakeholders. The pilot scheme was introduced under section 25 of the Traveller Accommodation Act 1998 to support the provision of Traveller-specific accommodation. The purpose of the scheme was to enable local authorities to provide loans to Travellers to purchase their own caravans or mobile homes for use as their primary residence on a halting site at a preferential rate. Loans may be advanced to an applicant assessed by the local authority as being in need of accommodation either on the social housing waiting list or in need of an upgraded caravan or mobile home as their principal residence and not in a position to provide for same partially or fully from their own resources.

In this initial pilot, a small number of loans were drawn down and, consequently, the evidence base was insufficient to support an enduring scheme. The Department expanded the pilot nationwide, following approval from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. A circular was issued from the Department to all local authorities in July 2022 outlining details of the expanded pilot caravan loan scheme. As this is a pilot scheme, there is provision for up to 75 caravans or €3 million in expenditure, whichever is the lesser, nationwide until the end of 2022. The uptake so far has been positive, with strong demand across local authorities, which is probably reflective of increasing family numbers and sizes.

At the end of this expanded pilot, a review will be carried out by the Department with input from local authorities and other stakeholders and a report will be made to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Options for an enduring scheme will then be considered at the conclusion of this process. Meeting the needs of all Traveller communities, as demonstrated by the pilot caravan loan scheme, continues to be a priority for local authorities and the Department and my colleagues, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In the words of Greta Thunberg, this is just, "Blah, blah, blah". I represent Galway West and in Galway city alone, there is a need, so that people can go to bed and sleep in a comfortable caravan. There is a need for 24 caravans now. What are we getting? We are getting process after process. We are spending billions of euro in this State accommodating people, and rightly so, but when it comes to Travellers, we seem as a State to be small-minded and mean. Is the Minister of State saying that the State cannot afford a decent caravan to replace a 20-year-old caravan for people who have had them for 20 years and looked after them? Can we not afford that, particularly when they pay back the cost of the caravans in a weekly rent? I beg the Minister of State to go back to the Department and say, "Cut the petty-mindedness". There should be one for anybody who needs it now, on a needs basis. There should not another winter with people ringing me up in tears because of the conditions they are being asked to live in. The Ombudsman came out and saw one of these caravans but the lady concerned is not going to get one, even though he recommended it.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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I agree entirely with Deputy Ó Cuiv. There seems to be a mealy-mouthed response across the board to the Travelling community. If a Travelling family goes to their local authority and says that it needs to change their caravan as it is 20 years old or whatever, they should be able to access the money to do it. It should not be a question of continuing to sleep in the cold. We have had a few nights of cold weather, but more is to come. Only a few weeks ago, three members of the Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community had to bring forward a Topical Issue matter regarding Spring Lane in County Cork because of the lack of response from the local authority, Cork County Council, to the needs of the Travelling community in that halting site. Things that were supposed to have been done a year ago were not done even though the people were promised it. It was still going on, so we had to raise it again in the Dáil. There is a question mark over how the Department and how Government address the issues affecting the Travelling community. It is important that we follow-up on that report and ensure that it is followed through.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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There is no issue with Government in terms of resourcing. The Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, was quite clear at the outset-----

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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Where is it then?

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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He was quite clear at the outset of his tenure to ensure that local authorities drew down all of their moneys for Traveller accommodation. The Deputy may recall, historically, there had been an underspend in many local authorities. All local authorities, under the Traveller accommodation programme, need to draw down their moneys and spend their allocations. Many Travellers, particularly younger Travellers, are moving into private accommodation and into different types of accommodation. That is also recognised. Specifically in relation to this, I will go back to the Minister and the Department about moving this scheme from a pilot to an enduring scheme. As both Deputies pointed out, there is a need for families to have an enduring scheme that would support them moving into the good-quality mobile homes they want to live in. I have been in many of them and they are comfortable and fantastic when families get them. It transforms quality of life for children in particular, as well as the whole family. We will go back to the Department and if there is an issue, which the Deputies are clearly saying there is, local authorities need to be proactive and the scheme needs to move from a pilot scheme to an enduring scheme. We should give consideration to that.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State should be under no misunderstanding. The Department allocated the four caravans to Galway, not the local authority.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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It is under the pilot scheme, I understand.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It was the Department that allocated the four caravans. The problem is the Department; that is why we are here today. The local authority and the Ombudsman will sort it.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I will relay that back to the Department.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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Will the Minister of State provide the evidence about what was drawn down last year and the beginning of this year?

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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We can get those figures for the Deputies.