Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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100. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills his views with respect to the campaign for better working conditions and pay led by personal assistants working in institutes for further education; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59672/22]

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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This question relates to the campaign for better pay and working conditions led by personal assistants who work in institutes for further education. They are difficult to recruit and their payments vary depending on the education and training board, ETB, from which they get money. SOLAS provides the overall funding. We need a proper career structure to ensure students with disabilities can participate fully in every aspect of third level education. They cannot do that at present. The people who help them are badly paid.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this matter with me and for raising it on one of my many visits in recent weeks to Drogheda and Dundalk, where the ETB has highlighted this as an important matter. The Deputy and I both want to create an education system that is truly inclusive and that allows everyone to reach their full potential no matter what their background is or whether they have a disability.

Some good things are in place around funds for students with disabilities. We have had new initiatives to support autistic students, which we discussed earlier, but we need to do more. The fund for students with disabilities provides funding to higher and further education institutions for the delivery of services and supports for students with disabilities. Within the further education and training sector, SOLAS administers the funding to each of the ETBs, which independently manage the allocation to post-leaving certificate centre providers for services and accommodations required to support students with disabilities.

That fund can be used to provide a wide range of supports, including non-medical helpers, such as personal assistants, which is the issue the Deputy raised. I understand some ETBs engage external service providers to provide the personal assistant service while other ETBs directly employ personal assistants. There is not one model in that regard. As set out in the SOLAS fund for students with disabilities guidelines, in cases where the ETB directly employs personnel to deliver supports, the contractual relationship is strictly between that employee and the ETB or the local college. As such, the terms and conditions of employment for personal assistants are a matter for the ETB.

However, I am aware claims are being made by personal assistants directly employed by the ETBs and by Fórsa, their union, for improved terms and conditions for these workers who are currently paid on an hourly rate basis. I understand Fórsa has tabled the matter for discussion at the ETB industrial relations, IR, forum, which deals with the ETB sector. I believe a meeting regarding that is due to take place this month. On top of that, my officials are also meeting with Fórsa on the matter. I assure the Deputy there has been a lot of engagement to try to see if there is a way forward.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate the Minister on his commitment, vitality and the way he is changing things. This is a huge area where, as he said, there needs to be a levelling of the playing pitch for people with disabilities. One of the issues we need to determine is how many people, on average, need assistance. We need to make sure there are whole-time equivalent jobs for that. Colleges vary in size but it is not acceptable that somebody who is the arms and legs of somebody with a disability, who could be a notetaker, or who helps them with their food and to negotiate their social life, is paid by the hour and, therefore, does not have any employment during the holiday period other than to go to a social welfare office.

I accept and acknowledge what the Minister said. I agree it is a matter for negotiation. We need one national pay scale. We need these jobs to be permanent, whole-time and pensionable because this will ensure people with disabilities will get their full access, be able to fulfil in every possible way their intellectual capacity and their ability to do their jobs into the future, and live a normal and full life as best they can. I welcome the support I received from my Sinn Féin colleague, Deputy Ó Murchú, who will ask a supplementary question. I will allow him to do so this time.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy O'Dowd. According to my note, 77 personal assistants are directly employed by the ETBs. I am open to correction on this but the note also indicates, and the information available to me suggests, that the majority of personal assistants are employed externally and not directly by ETBs. However, 77 are directly employed by ETBs. The figure for the Louth-Meath ETB in the Deputy's area is 15. That gives a context to all this because 3,829 students in 2021 accessed the fund for students with disabilities. A total of 2,165 of them used the fund for academic and learning support, 636 for assistive technologies, equipment and software, 26 for deaf supports, 563 for exam supports, 399 for non-medical helpers, which could be personal assistants, 34 for transport supports and six for work placements.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I welcome those statistics. The Minister knows the issue. I know he is fighting for students with disabilities and that he will do his very best. I am very happy with his response.

We also need to address the issue of the percentage of people with disabilities who are employed nationally in State and semi-State bodies. It is a big issue. There was a quota that was very low. We should look at increasing that quota to allow full participation in our society by all people with disabilities, in addition to the supports that now need to be put in place permanently in order that the best people can get the best results and the best support possible for a wage they can live on and can stand over in their future lives.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy O'Dowd for tabling this question. I thank the Minister for his interaction on this particular issue. The Minister said there is sometimes a cliff edge in respect of adult disability services. That is the piece that needs to be fixed. We all know the working conditions and the payments these PAs are getting are insufficient. A number of them who have contacted Deputies have left that work. These are people who are committed to facilitating people with disabilities. It is vital we conduct the assessment of the needs required to ensure we can give people decent pay and conditions. Fórsa is talking about a possible school secretaries-type solution.

The ETB IR meeting is on 15 December. I am told the Minister's Department is looking for a meeting with Fórsa on the week of 12 December. I ask that that meeting takes place as quickly as possible, followed by a meeting with the PAs. I ask him to come back with that timeline. The PAs are also somewhat worried there will be a change at Cabinet level that could impact on this.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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They are not the only ones. I thank Deputies Ó Murchú and O'Dowd for raising this important issue. Without wanting to stray into the industrial relations, IR, space because of the proximity between this discussion and those discussions that will take place at the IR forum, I acknowledge on the record of the Dáil the excellent work done by personal assistants, PAs. Those are not platitudes; I know from travelling around the country, from talking to students and from meeting PAs that there are people in further education today who simply would not be there and reach their full potential without the intervention of the PAs. Therefore, I hope the forum, discussion and engagement go well. I have given a commitment to meeting a delegation of PAs with the Deputy after that process and I am happy to do that.

On Deputy O'Dowd's point about employment, I want to talk about this because we are changing our approach to our new national access plan. Until now we have only measured access. Access is important and getting someone in the door is a big step forward. What happens after a student with a disability gets into college? What happens in terms of the workforce after they graduate from the college? The new national access plan, which we published in recent months, will monitor all of the journey and progression. That will shine a light on the work that needs to be done around education resulting in employment for a person with a disability.