Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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95. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if he will detail the work that is currently being undertaken by his Department in respect of workforce planning and the future training of students in the area of disability services, particularly occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and child psychologists; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [59172/22]

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Minister to detail the work that is currently being undertaken by his Department in respect of workforce planning and the future training of students in the area of disability services, particularly occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and child psychologists. I could probably have used the term "etc." at the end of that sentence. We have had discussions in this regard. We know there are programmes in regard to recruitment abroad but we want to make sure we are not still in the terrible situation we are now in for the next four or five years.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this question and we had some engagement on it previously. When I look at the whole area of health and social care, there are 26 professions that I have come across so far in terms of the breadth of courses and professions that need to be addressed. We have to ensure there is an appropriate pipeline of suitably qualified professionals in disciplines required for disability teams and the therapy professions operating across the health, children and education sectors.

This is a key priority for me and for my Department. It is important to say that the provision of such programmes in the further and higher education system must have regard to overall workforce plans which are the responsibility of relevant agencies and Departments to develop for their sectors. It is a responsibility of agencies and Departments to say “This is what we need for our workforce and this is our workforce planning”, and it is then my sector's responsibility to dovetail with that and make sure we can meet those needs. Such plans need to take account of planned service expansion, retirement and improvements in the retention of existing staff and changes in the mix of staff, which employers are best placed to understand and influence.

The programme for Government commits the Department of Health to working with the education sectors, regulators and professional bodies to improve the availability of health professionals and reform their training to support integrated care across the entire health service.

Significant engagement is ongoing between my Department, the Department of Health, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and the Department of Education to develop a joined-up approach to meet system-level demand in therapeutic disciplines.

Health and social care programmes are, by their nature, complex in delivery. The availability of appropriate placements and placement supports is a key enabler of expansion. A working group, including representation from the Department of Health, the HSE and CORU as well as the higher education sector, is now in place specifically to examine how placements can be secured to facilitate greater numbers of training places. That will be key.

I want to build on the progress made this year in respect of medicine places, and I am optimistic we can do so. We jointly agreed an approach in that regard and got on with it. The HEA, on my behalf, will be going out to the sector in March to ask what it can do specifically on the disciplines and therapies raised by the Deputy. There will be a scanning exercise in March in that regard.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is all very welcome. As the Minister stated, it is about ensuring there is a pipeline, something we have not had in recent years. I welcome that the Minister is talking about multiple Departments. We all get that there is crossover, particularly in respect of disability services. It is fair to say we are not starting from the point at which we would like to start in the sense there probably has been insufficient conversation from the Department of Health and the HSE in previous years, and possibly the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. All I want to know is that the correct conversations are happening and then, to put it colloquially, the devil and all is being done from the point of view of delivering for these necessary services.

If I may, I will ask a question on another matter, relating to the Trinity centre job activation and engaging with industry. Is the Minister considering using the likes of the education and training board, ETB, structure from the point of view of doing that for both the Trinity centre and other projects that might fall under phase 4?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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The short answer to the Deputy's final question is, "Yes". It is up to the autonomous institutions to determine their own programmes. We want to create a unified tertiary education system, however, so I would very much welcome proposals that involve further and higher education working together.

As regards workforce planning, there is a level of engagement now that was not present in the past, frankly. We need to do a much better job of planning to meet the public service needs. Although training is only part of this, we must ensure we are training enough people to work in these professions. We made good progress, objectively, in respect of medicine last year. A total of 60 extra medicine places at undergraduate level were provided last year. That was good. There are at least 60 more coming in September. We have agreed a multi-year approach to get to where we need to be on medicine. This year, we must do the same in respect of nursing and therapies. We cannot have a situation where we are not training enough speech and language therapists, occupational therapists, physiotherapists or any of the 26 other professions in which we know there is a chronic need for more people to work. In March next year, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, will ask all institutions to come forward with what they can do in these spaces.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is all very welcome. We must also deal with issues relating to working conditions, among other factors that are outside the remit of the Minister, to increase retention and make it attractive to work in those spheres.

We are dealing with the sphere of disability. My constituency colleague Deputy O'Dowd may not like what I am about to do, but I raise again the issue of personal assistants, PAs. We have had a significant amount of engagement on this issue. My understanding is the Minister is willing to meet PAs, who do great work at the likes of Ó Fiaich Institute of Further Education and Drogheda Institute of Further Education.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Speaking of my PA-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I refer to the education and training board ETB industrial relations meeting that is to take place on 15 December. Fórsa is going to have a specific meeting as well. Will the Minister provide the dates in that regard and give a commitment to meet the PAs afterwards. I know a significant number of others have done work-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Deputy is over time. I call an tAire to respond.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will keep in touch with the Deputy in respect of PA hours, I wrote to him on the matter yesterday. Deputy O'Dowd is in an awkward position.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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It is okay. I will speak to Deputy Ó Murchú afterwards.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Deputy's position in respect of workforce planning. There is good work going on. I have outlined my position. In March, we will ask the higher education sector what it can do, innovatively and otherwise. This is important. We have just had a mapping exercise in respect of veterinary medicine and a number of other professions. There is now a significant level of ambition to create at least one more veterinary school. I am excited about that. It shows that when those in the system are asked what they can do in terms of what is new and innovative to help us to provide more places to meet the demands of the country, we can make progress.

I wrote to the Deputy yesterday on the issue of PA hours.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that.