Dáil debates

Thursday, 6 October 2022

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

 

12:00 pm

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Ba mhaith liom ceist a ardú leis an Tánaiste faoi na costais atá ag cur isteach go mór ar theaghlaigh. Tá an geimhreadh ag bualadh linn agus tá imní ar theaghlaigh ar fud an Stáit faoi chostais fhuinnimh. Tá eagla orthu go bhfuil praghsanna ag dul in airde agus in airde agus nach mbeidh go leor fágtha acu chun billí a íoc agus na soilse a choinneáil ar siúl. Tá polasaí ag an Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, nach mbeidh cead ag na comhlachtaí fuinnimh tithe a dhícheangal le linn an gheimhridh, ach ní bhaineann an polasaí seo leis na 340,000 daoine atá ag úsáid méadar réamhíoctha. Thug an Taoiseach a fhocal, gealltanas, ag an deireadh seachtaine nach mbeadh custaiméirí a úsáideann méadair réamhíoctha á dícheangal. An bhfuil an Rialtas chun polasaí a thabhairt isteach a dhéanfaidh beart de réir bhriathar an Taoisigh?

At the weekend, the Taoiseach gave a commitment that nobody would be disconnected from their electricity supply this winter. That commitment would be welcomed by many people who are very concerned and worried. Yesterday, when he was pressed by our party leader and other Members of the Opposition about how this work in detail and in practice, he was not able to provide any answers. Workers and families are under severe pressure in the face of a cost-of-living and energy crisis. Electricity suppliers are constantly announcing price hikes. Some price hikes came into effect this week. The Government's continuing refusal to cap electricity prices at pre-crisis levels has left people wide open to further hikes. Ultimately, households that cannot pay their bills are in danger of disconnection. In the first half of this year, 712 households were disconnected. That was before the impact of the huge increases in bills and the impact of winter. The weather has started to turn. It is getting colder. Winter is nearly here and workers and families need certainty.

The plan to introduce a ban on disconnections for bill-pay customers from December until February is not good enough. It leaves people waiting far too long for protection and the timespan is too short. There are 125,000 households currently in arrears and this figure, unfortunately, is only going in one direction. What is needed is an immediate ban on disconnections now and to run that ban right through to the end of March. That is crucial because this will not apply to workers and families with a prepay meter. We need to give effect to the Taoiseach's commitment. There are approximately 346,000 households that use prepay electricity meters in this State. The CRU has warned that there could be difficulties in providing additional credits to pay-as-you-go customers. Many of those on prepay meters are already rationing their electricity for fear of being cut off. There is growing concern that these households are effectively disconnecting. Households that pay as they go for their energy are at greater risk now than in the coming months as they are unable to spread the cost across the year like direct debit customers.

The Taoiseach gave a very firm commitment on behalf of the Government at the weekend. As I said, that commitment was welcomed by people who are struggling and will find it difficult to keep the lights on this winter. It was a commitment that was welcomed in particular by the 340,000 people who are on prepay meters, who unfortunately have no guarantee that they will not be disconnected this winter. How is the Government going to live up to that promise? How is it going to ensure that those customers who are vulnerable, those who are paying higher tariffs through prepay meters, and those who are inflicted with a penalty if they want to go onto bill pay have the same certainty every bill-pay customer will have this winter?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the question. First, I acknowledge the fact that energy and gas prices are very high. They are likely to rise more in the months ahead before they level off and start falling again. I also remind the Deputy that we had a budget only last week which gave every household, including households that use pay-as-you-go meters, €600 in energy credits over the course of the winter. As a lot of people who use pay-as-you-go meters are on social welfare or are low-income families, they will benefit from the double social welfare payments, the double child benefit payment and measures like the €500 bonus for people receiving the working family payment. All of that will arrive in people's pockets and put more money in their pockets before Christmas. None of that was in the Sinn Féin alternative budget proposal. A lot of help is on the way.

As the ESRI pointed out in its analysis, the least well-off 30% of people will be fully protected from the rise in the cost of living at least until the end of winter. For that reason, the vast majority of people should and will be able to manage their bills over the next few months. I acknowledge that there will be some hardship cases - there always are - and for that reason we need to help. For people who are on bill pay, the moratorium on disconnections runs until the end of February, and for vulnerable customers until the end of March. For people using pay-as-you-go meters, the Deputy and I both understand that that is a much more complicated system because of the way it operates. However, the overdraft people have is now extended to €20, so people can run over the meter by up to €20 without facing the risk of disconnection. In addition, having spoken to some people who are on pay-as-you-go meters, it is already the case that, at least in a lot of cases, people cannot be disconnected on a weekend so that people have the time to top up. That is not the full solution and it is not an adequate solution at this stage. I appreciate the point the Deputy is making about equality of treatment between those on bill pay and those on pay-as-you-go meters. With that in mind, the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications has been meeting with the energy companies today and yesterday to see what additional measures we can put in place to protect people who are on pay-as-you-go meters.

As it stands, vulnerable customers who are on pay-as-you-go meters have to be put on the most economic tariff. The amount they can run over by has been extended by €10 to €20. At least in some cases, that protection is in place to prevent disconnections at the weekend. I know that is not enough and we will need to come up with a better solution for those hardship cases to make sure people are not disconnected over the winter, regardless of how they pay. Those meetings today and yesterday involving the Minister and the energy companies are happening and we should be able to give the Deputy a fuller response in due course.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste spoke about what was done in the budget. He was wrong about what we suggested. We did have double payments, cash payments and all the rest. I will not go into that because it is a different issue.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I think you should.

Photo of Colm BrophyColm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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He should.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Even with the budget announcement, there is a guarantee for many customers that from December right through to February, no matter how difficult they find it to pay their bills, their electricity will not be turned off. The lights will stay on for those customers. Then there are those 346,000 customers who do not have that commitment. That is the issue we are dealing with here. It is an issue of fairness, equality and making sure all customers are treated the same. The Tánaiste spoke about a €20 energy credit. The reality is that €20 is not going to stretch far. Yes, the companies cannot disconnect people at the weekend or at certain hours during the day but when Monday comes around, the lights will be off and people will have no electricity and no way of turning on the TV, the lights or many other basic functions. That is the problem here. Does the Tánaiste agree with the principle that disconnections should be banned for prepay meters right through the winter? The Taoiseach gave that commitment. Does the Tánaiste stand over that commitment and is that the policy objective he wants to see with the energy companies?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The answer to the Deputy's question is "Yes" but because of how pay-as-you-go works, we have to find a viable mechanism to achieve exactly that. The energy credit is €600. In addition to that, people can overrun by €20 without being disconnected. They cannot be disconnected at weekends and we are looking at mechanisms to make sure we can extend the treatment that bill-pay customers have to pay-as-you-go customers. I believe it can be done.

I can understand why the Deputy does not want to talk about the Sinn Féin alternative budget. I have done some research on that. Take the fuel allowance, for example. Sinn Féin committed to a €5 increase in the fuel allowance. That would be worth €60 to the least well-off people in our society between now and Christmas. We are providing a €400 lump sum. For the working family payment, Sinn Féin would have provided nothing.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is not true.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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These are working poor people. We provided a €500 lump sum. For people living alone, the Deputy's party proposed a €2.50 increase in the living alone allowance.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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And €15 in the State pension.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We will provide a lump sum of €200 before Christmas. Based on Sinn Féin's proposals-----

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Why does the Tánaiste have to mislead all the time?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----somebody would have to live alone for another year and a half-----

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is desperate and pathetic.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are moving on.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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As people are being disconnected, the Tánaiste is just going to mislead.

12:10 pm

Photo of Colm BrophyColm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
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It is the Deputy who should stop misleading people.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I want to raise the issue of how we can ensure the continuation of vital community services across all our communities and pay and conditions for those workers who have been outsourced from the State and who provide vital care services through section 39 organisations or section 56 organisations. We all know how many community-based services in all our constituencies are utterly reliant on workers who are paid in this way - not directly by the State but indirectly by the State to provide vital public services. Labour will bring forward a motion in the House next week seeking to ensure better pay and conditions and, crucially, a framework for the sustainable delivery of public services across our communities through adequate resourcing and adequate recognition of a need for better pay and conditions for such workers.

We are conscious that until 2008, those employed in the community, voluntary and care sectors, such as section 39 workers, received pay increases under national wage agreements but they have not received pay increases since and they have no formal mechanism for collective pay bargaining. While public sector workers received a very welcome pay rise under Building Momentum, no pay rise or improvement in conditions was provided to the community and voluntary sector. We all know in our constituencies the vital public services provided by workers through these organisations, which include HSE-funded section 39 organisations, Tusla-funded section 56 organisations,section 10 homeless services funded indirectly through the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and a broad range of community services such as those managed by community employment supervisors, whose salaries are indirectly funded by the State.

This was raised yesterday on RTÉ Radio by Noeline Blackwell of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, who spoke about the difficulty affecting services such as hers, which provide vital public services to support victims and survivors of rape and other sexual offences and sexual abuse but are doing so without adequate sustainable funding frameworks and assurances as to adequacy of pay and pay increases for staff employed through the mechanisms I have described - Tusla-funded section 56 organisations in that case. I was in Cork on Monday and heard from parents of children with autism and other disabilities about the difficulty accessing services through organisations that are finding it difficult to retain and recruit qualified staff. Children with disabilities and their parents are losing out as a result. Indeed, the Harvey report on the delivery of health services by section 39 organisations funded by the HSE found high annual staff exit rates of up to one third annually with further reports since then of workers leaving to take up direct employment in the public service, such as directly through the HSE, due to the pay gap and the gulf in terms and conditions. I heard in Cork about how the NHS is coming over to recruit directly from section 39 and section 56 organisations. Clearly, the pay and conditions the NHS can offer as a direct public service are far better.

We call on the Government to establish a renewed relationship between not-for-profit organisations and the State based on a shared long-term vision and plan and to ensure a multi-annual funding framework to provide certainty for providers, their staff and, crucially, for people like the parents I met in Cork with FUSS Ireland who are dependent on the vital services being provided to their children by workers who are simply not getting adequate pay and conditions compared to workers employed directly through the HSE. Will the Tánaiste undertake to look favourably on the terms of our motion and engage directly with the not-for-profit sector?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the issue and I will certainly take a look at the motion and respond to it. It is not entirely accurate to describe people as having been outsourced. That does a disservice to them and even the bodies for which they work. It has always been the case in this State and almost every other democratic state that some services are provided directly by the State and others by voluntary bodies, charities and not-for-profit bodies, many of which predate the existence of the State, and private companies under contract. To try to do everything through the State sector would not work and to try to do everything through the private sector would not work. Excluding voluntary bodies or charities or trying to nationalise them would not work either. It makes sense to provide services in different ways using the public, private and not-for-profit sectors. That is how you get the most capacity and how you get the most done.

As the Deputy will be aware, section 39 organisations often provide a lot of services on behalf of the State. They range from very small organisations to some very big hospitals and disability service providers. They are usually funded through a service-level agreement between the Government and the bodies, essentially through a block grant in return for particular services. The employees are not Government employees and we cannot determine exactly how the block grant is allocated by those providers. However, there will be significant increases in the block grants paid to section 39 organisations next year as a result of the budget. Indeed, there is €100 million in the budget in additional funding this year alone. We anticipate that the increase in the grant provided to those providers should be adequate to cover the cost of the public service pay agreement. This is only fair because it is not just the NHS or other foreign services that are trying to recruit staff from these bodies. The HSE is trying to do it as well and the HSE taking staff from voluntary bodies in that way is not fair. It is important that the block grant increase is adequate to cover the public sector pay increases so they can be applied to the staff in those bodies but we cannot determine that this is done because these are independent entities that control their own affairs and budgets.

One area where we are working very hard and to which the Taoiseach and I are very committed is moving the section 39 hospices into the section 38 category. This could be a precedent for others to follow. It does not always make sense but sometimes it does. These hospices that are voluntary bodies would prefer to be in the section 38 category and I strongly support that because there has been an unfairness and disparity in the way they are funded and the way the staff are treated because of that. We have been working on that and are keen to get it done soon.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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I thank the Tánaiste for his constructive words. I do think it is fair to describe services as having been outsourced. Indeed, as the Tánaiste acknowledged, the State has a long history of outsourcing vital public services such as health and education to voluntary bodies, notably the Catholic Church and religious orders resulting in a shadow welfare state. Now in 2022, we need to ensure that we move to a different mode of delivery of services and that the State is stepping in to ensure those who are providing the same services as HSE staff but are doing so through being employed by voluntary bodies get the same pay and conditions, otherwise it is inevitable that the HSE, the NHS and others will seek to recruit them. The Tánaiste will be aware that pay claims have been submitted as part of the ICTU-led Valuing Care, Valuing Community campaign supported by SIPTU, Fórsa and the INMO in particular to ensure that staff working through these voluntary bodies, including section 39 and section 56 organisations, will have equivalent pay and conditions to their counterparts employed directly through the HSE and Tusla. Otherwise we will simply see a real diminution of services throughout the country.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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This is not just done in Ireland. The NHS provides services through hospitals with royal charters and has done so since its establishment. In France and Germany, nearly one third of public health services are provided through voluntary bodies that have an agreement with the state payer. It is similar in Australia. One would have go to eastern Europe 30 years ago to find a set of public services that were only run by the state and excluded the private sector, voluntary bodies, charities and NGOs, and that is not something we want to do. We acknowledge the issue raised by the Deputy, namely, that there are staff working in section 39 bodies who are at a disadvantage compared to people doing the same work in a HSE-provided body. That is unfair and is something we want to rectify, first, by making sure the block grants of those bodies are adequate to cover the pay increases that will be paid in the public sector, which is only fair and, second, we will at least make an effort with the hospices to move them from section 39 to section 38, which is quite a complicated process when pension arrangements and so on are taken into account but is something we have committed to do.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Barring any unexpected accidents, the Tánaiste is expected to become Taoiseach again in a few months. In the meantime, he retains responsibility for policy and legislative matters relating to enterprise, trade and employment.

The welfare of businesses, industry and, most of all, consumers falls within his remit. Many Members have commented on the stark warnings from EirGrid indicating that the gap between electricity and supply will likely get worse. The CEO told RTÉ this morning that he cannot guarantee that there will not be blackouts. This is a shocking development, which will concern thousands of homeowners and businesses, as well as damage our reputation abroad. It is shocking that yet again we have the spectacle of regulatory State agencies arriving breathless and somewhat puzzled at the scene of the latest threatened blight to hit the beleaguered public.

Does the Tánaiste agree that now is the time for him and his Government colleagues to carry out an urgent review of the effectiveness of the various regulatory State agencies that are well paid to oversee key sectors or activities? They should perform or be abolished. We have EirGrid, the transmission system operator, and the Commission of Regulation of Utilities, who, when not squabbling with each other, have allowed a situation to develop where we have imminent threats of blackouts and rapidly increasing energy costs. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission seems to be a spectator when it comes to price rises hitting consumers and seems unable to tackle price gouging. The commission is also pretty useless when it comes to tackling the scourge of insurance costs. We have an aviation regulator who failed to spot the unfolding crisis in Dublin Airport this year. We have a Central Bank which, despite its role in the collapse of the banking system, subsequently failed to detect the tracker mortgage scandal, which was brought to its attention by a committee of this House. The Planning Regulator seemed blind to what is happening in An Bord Pleanála until an online site published allegations. The incompetence of the Road Safety Authority is legendary and it is ironic that it requires HGV drivers to acquire a certificate of professional competence when it is the drivers who should set a course of competence for the RSA. The Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, while competent in its duty, is powerless to stop unethical behaviour by senior officials. The Government is even appointing impugned officials to State boards following their censure by SIPO. We also have a complete failure on the part of multiple State agencies to enforce existing legislation prohibiting the curse of online gambling and its infliction of hardship on thousands of families nationally. At what stage will the Government demand these entities do their job and fulfil their functions? The public is sick and tired of useless regulatory bodies, which arrive breathless at the scene of the latest outrage, looking for more powers and resources.

12:20 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There is a lot in that question and it is hard to answer comprehensively in the time allowed. I do not think her characterisation of our regulatory structures is entirely fair. They are not perfect but many of them have served us very well in recent years. That is not to say there have not been flaws and failings. It is important to bear in mind that some of these regulators are accountable directly to the Oireachtas and not to the Government. That is the way they have been established and they are held to account through the Oireachtas committee structure.

On energy, the review is under way. Some months ago, Mr. Dermot McCarthy, the former Secretary General to the Government, was appointed to review the regulatory system for energy and to identify why things went wrong and what we can do to ensure they do not go wrong in the future.

I restate what the CEO of EirGrid said this morning. He said it was important to note there is no risk of a system-wide blackout. Rather, there may be periods where total supply does not meet demand. While nobody can rule out the possibility of blackouts over the winter, I want to say to families, homeowners, small businesses and farms that the chances of a prolonged blackout affecting them are very low. Many people are engaging in worrying people about this. We cannot rule it out but the risk of that kind of blackout is very low. If we enter a red-alert scenario, large energy users will come offline first, such as data centres. They have their own generation capacity. It takes quite a lot of events to come together for us to be in a position where there would have to be power cut to homes, firms or businesses. It is important to reassure people of that. It did not happen last winter. Nobody can say it will not happen this winter but it is unlikely.

We do not know everything about this matter but one thing we all know is that fundamentally the problem is inadequate supply and not enough generators generating electricity. We have a rapidly growing population and economy, and because of the need to take climate action, we are moving a lot of things to electricity. There are more electric vehicles, heat pumps, etc. All of those things contribute to rising electricity demand. That demand will rise further. The solution is much more generation capacity. That was licensed and contracted but the generators did not deliver. Now we are in a catch-up phase but we have a plan to catch up and put that generation capacity in place - both renewables and gas, because both are necessary - and to get ahead of this in the coming years.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I would have thought the idea of all the regulators I mentioned was that we would not be catching up because they would outline the problems and foresee the issues. Instead, every body I mentioned states that they have been brought to their attention. That is the reality of where we are. We are constantly behind the curve.

My group, the Regional Group, tabled a motion on energy, if the Government is concerned about blackouts. We asked that it would not deconstruct Derrybrien and that we pay the fine to the EU and continue with the energy supply to 40,000 homes that the 70 wind turbines would provide. We suggested reigniting Lanesborough and Shannonbridge power stations, none of which was taken on board. I do not understand why the regulator was on the radio this morning saying we are in danger of blackouts while the Tánaiste says it is unlikely and that we should not frighten people. Who is frightening the people? The inaction is frightening the people.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that the Regional Group is putting forward solutions in this regard and they need to be considered. One of the reasons keeping Derrybrien going does not necessarily make sense is that when the energy system is short of generating capacity is when the wind is not blowing. That is at the heart of many of the problems we have. We have a lot of renewable energy. The risk of a blackout or brownout occurs only when the wind is not blowing. That is why keeping Derrybrien online is not particularly useful in terms of the energy crunch we face. Lanesborough and Shannonbridge created a lot of employment in the midlands for a long time but peat, by its nature, did not produce an awful lot of energy.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Use biomass.

Photo of Verona MurphyVerona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There are ten years left in them.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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What we plan to do with some of the plants in the midlands is that one will go to biomass and the others will be used for battery storage, so we can use the wind power and renewables, which are not dispatchable but can be stored. That might make more sense in terms of energy security and for the environment.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The Valuation Office is conducting a revaluation of all commercial and industrial properties in County Kerry as part of the programme to revalue all such properties in the State. In the last week, many people in the county have been shocked by the proposed valuation figures they have received. Traders and operators from all walks of life in all parts of the county are terrified at the proposed doubling and tripling of their rates demands, from one-man operators, small garages and repair shops, small pubs and shops, hardware stores, restaurants, hairdressers, chemists, bakers, butchers and sweet-shops to the big employers such as hotels, fabricators and manufacturing companies like Liebherr, Munster Joinery, concrete products and the likes.

Traders are told if they do not accept, they can appeal but a valuation officer has a right to visit the property. It is quite possible that many traders will close when they size up the situation they find themselves in. It is easier to keep doors open now than to try to get them to reopen later. I call on the Tánaiste to defer this process. Things are bad enough. People are struggling to survive after Covid, Brexit and now the massive increase in energy and all other costs. People should only be assessed on profits, not on sales or the market rental value.

This revaluation was postponed back in 2020 because of the virus. I ask that this process be deferred for the foreseeable future, especially because of increased energy costs while many traders are just finding their feet this year. They had the support payments from the Government over the last two years but trading after the pandemic has changed for many businesses, not least those that cannot operate online delivery services of supplies of food, clothes, furniture, parts and all types of goods and materials. They are disadvantaged because they must have a physical building on the side of a street. If a shop closes down, it adversely affects all other businesses on the street. One owner of a restaurant told me he has to pay for rent, increased wages, PRSI, PAYE, insurance, electricity, water, refuse and VAT, which is going up next March. The prices for heating and cooking oil have gone mad. This man's rates are proposed to go from €31,000 to €60,000. For others, rates will increase from €1,500 to €5,000 and €24,000 to €58,000 in places like Killarney, Tralee, Listowel, Kenmare, Dingle, Cahersiveen and Rathmore. Everyone who got a proposed valuation was given a figure - let us say it was €15,000 - and told to multiply that by 0.227 when they asked to get the real proposed figure. Why could the Valuation Office not have the correct figure it was proposing included in the document in the first place?

12:30 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. My county, Dublin Fingal, went through the revaluation process some years ago. I know how traumatic and frightening it can be from some business people when they receive a letter in the post telling them their rates are to go up by a dramatic amount. There is, as the Deputy noted, an appeals process. I encourage anyone who has had a valuation changed to avail of that. A lot of people find that the amount comes down on appeal.

It is important to point out that when the revaluation is done, it is on a revenue-neutral basis. Some people are winners and see their valuations down. Others are losers and see their valuations go up. In Kerry, for example, valuations are going down for two thirds of businesses and going up for one third. Understandably, as politicians, it is the one third who are seeing an increase that we hear from and not the two thirds who are seeing a decrease. As the Deputy pointed out, when some people get the letter in the post they do not apply the 0.227 multiplier so there is an initial shock because they believe they will see a huge increase in their rates. Then, when they do the calculation they find that is not the case. I agree with the Deputy. I do not see why the Valuation Office cannot do that calculation. It is pretty straightforward and I think it should do that. The matter was raised by Deputy Griffin at a meeting not long ago. I will make contact with the Valuation Office, on behalf of Irish businesses, to ask it to do exactly that. It is a simple thing and it should be doable.

There are walk-in valuation clinics in Kerry all this week - they are in Dingle and Kenmare today, for example - where business owners can go in, talk to a human being and have this worked through and discussed.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Tánaiste but, as he said, people are shocked and terrified, and rightly so. The local authority has said it will not benefit from the revaluation but for the valuation has not come down for any of the people I have met on the street and around Kerry. I cannot understand that. I know of one person for whom it came down by €100 but it is more than doubling in many cases. Many of these traders are renting. They cannot afford another increase on top of all the increases they have to deal with now.

The Government was able to defer it in 2020 for the virus and it has the power to do so again and review it. I am asking that people be dealt with based on whether they are making profit. If they are not making profit, it is very unfair to charge them on the rental value of their property or their sales because sales do not reflect the profit. That is what is wrong with this whole thing.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is important to point out again that this is being done on a revenue-neutral basis. There is no tax increase here and two thirds of businesses in Kerry will see their rates go down. I appreciate that we are hearing from the one third who are not, particularly those who are seeing a big increase, but two thirds are seeing their rates go down. To defer the revaluation would adversely affect more businesses than going ahead with it would.

In the medium term, we need to examine a new tax to replace commercial rates. The Commission on Taxation and Welfare suggested that we move towards a site valuation tax, a commercial property tax. There are pluses and minuses to that, as in the case of any reform. However, in those circumstances the charges would fall on the owner of the building rather than the operator of the business. That is something we are considering but that is for the medium term. In the meantime, the valuation goes ahead.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Plenty more places will close down.