Dáil debates

Tuesday, 4 October 2022

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

 

2:00 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Taoiseach to scrap the Government's concrete block levy. The proposal is flawed and will make the housing crisis even worse. The Taoiseach says the levy is to ensure that industry contributes to redress schemes for defective blocks and pyrite. However, the reality is that this is not a levy on the industry at all. The Government's scheme is really a levy on those desperately seeking to buy or build a home, because companies will simply factor it in. They will pass on the increase to customers and it will inevitably push up prices that, as the Taoiseach is aware, have already soared beyond their Celtic tiger peak. The Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland has warned that the levy could increase the price of a home by an eye-watering €4,000. Incredibly, it will also force homeowners with defective blocks in Mayo, Donegal, Clare and Limerick to pay even more to fix their homes, which is crazy.

We are in the middle of an unprecedented housing disaster. For so many, affordability is a pipe dream and now the Government's levy will hit ordinary people in the pocket while they struggle with sky-high housing costs. Taoiseach, imagine for a moment that you were a member of the generation locked out of home ownership - dealing with extortionate rent so you cannot save for a deposit, with a historic lack of supply pushing up house prices and with the financial muscle of cuckoo funds sending those prices skyrocketing further - and then you hear that the Government, which should be working to get house prices down, is going to introduce a measure that will add thousands of euro to the price of a home. Imagine that. Taoiseach, imagine you were a first-time buyer who, after scrimping and scraping for years, was finally able to afford a home and then the Government comes along with this levy to make it harder again, or that you were one of those living in a house with defective blocks which is crumbling all around you while you have been crying out for a credible and fair remediation scheme, or that you were one of those who bought an apartment, duplex or other home riddled with Celtic tiger era fire safety defects and you have been left with no scheme at all. Could the Government honestly look any of those people in the eye and tell them that the levy is about them? It is a levy that puts the burden and pain on ordinary home buyers instead of where it belongs - on the banks, the profits of big developers and those responsible for defects. Ardóidh tobhach an Rialtais ar bhloic choincréite praghsanna tithe. Cuirfear ar aghaidh chuig gnáthcheannaitheoirí tí é. Ba cheart é a scriosadh agus tobhach atá dírithe ar na bainc, na forbróirí móra agus iad siúd atá freagrach as na bloic lochtacha a chur ina áit.

Sinn Féin has tabled a motion before the Dáil tonight to correct this mess. I ask all Deputies to support it but it really should not have to go to a vote.

I ask the Taoiseach to do the right thing. It is very clear from the reaction on the Government benches that there is a realisation that this levy, as constructed, is not the way forward. I ask the Government to scrap the concrete block levy now and replace it with a measure that will put the burden on those responsible for defects and not on the shoulders of those struggling to buy or to build a home.

2:05 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for her contribution. When George Orwell wrote his great novel, 1984, he talked about the party’s emphasis on doublethink. Describing it, he explains that party members have “to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them”. Most people who have read 1984took it as a warning but the Deputy’s party seems to be taking it as some sort of instruction manual.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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You are good at it yourself.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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How else can we reconcile the party’s performance on this issue?

We have just watched the Deputy condemn the Government’s proposal in respect of industry contributing to the cost of mica redress. Just last week, her colleague, Deputy Doherty, stood in this House, in the same place as the Deputy, and declared, "I also welcome the defective concrete products levy." I then listened to comrade Ó Broin on “Morning Ireland” this morning dodging and weaving on the issue, as only he can, and being Jesuitical in his approach. He said that, yes, of course, we need to make the industry responsible for defective concrete products bear some of the financial burden, but not like this. He then has the ghost of a plan that no one would see or feel involving only the big developers, the big banks - when in doubt, Deputy Ó Broin reaches for the banks - and perhaps, then, estate agents or the bigger estate agents.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Your friends.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Then again, the Deputy’s party had a Private Members’ motion in June 2021 in which it demanded "that those responsible for the manufacture of defective blocks are held to account, and that industry contributes to the overall cost". In that debate Deputy Doherty was equally clear that builders and suppliers "are held to account with a contribution extracted from the industry towards the remediation."

Photo of Thomas GouldThomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is right.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's party is the party of doublethink and the three-card trick. It is for mica redress and industry making its contribution until it is not. It supports the levy on concrete products until it does not. The industry responsible for the problem should pay until it should not.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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This is nearly as good as the Taoiseach's Ard-Fheis speech.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin is making this up as it goes along.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Stand up.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will put it this way - God help us if it ever gets near the national finances.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In respect of first-time buyers, we have to look at things fairly. This Government is giving unprecedented support to first-time buyers. The help-to-buy scheme has assisted 35,000 first-time buyers, at €30,000 per qualifying property. The new first homes shared equity scheme will provide further supports to first-time buyers. In the past 12 months, more first-time buyers bought their first home than in any year since 2008. This Government is doing an unprecedented amount to support first-time buyers and that will continue. First-time buyers accounted for 26% of all properties purchased in 2021. The Croí Cónaithe towns fund, which is there for first-time buyers, provides a €30,000 grant and that can be increased by an extra €20,000 for particular houses. Then there is the local authority affordable purchase scheme, which is also there for first-time buyers, and the local authority home loan scheme.

On the remediation scheme, the Government is committed to and has signed off on this scheme in respect of €2.7 billion for mica, €230 million for pyrite and anything from €1.5 billion to €2.5 billion for apartments. That is €4.5 billion to €6 billion in costs for remediation. There has to be a revenue stream to at least contribute to that extraordinary expenditure.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We have visitors from schools present. I ask Deputies to show them how questions and answers are engaged in with respect from both sides of the House.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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With pleasure, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I welcome our visitors from Ballyhaunis Community School.

Fáilte isteach gach duine.

The Taoiseach would be more Animal Farm than 1984, some being more equal than others and none more unequally treated than that generation I have described to him who are locked out of home ownership, and well he knows it. Yes, industry has to pay. By the way, all of those on the benches opposite are responsible for the light-touch regulation or the no regulation at all that gave rise to this nightmare, so that is where culpability for that lies. Of course, the Taoiseach has to ensure that industry and those responsible, including the banks, pay - that is for sure. Never mind Deputy Eoin Ó Broin, who the Taoiseach has a minor fixation with, if I might say. It is the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland, not Deputy Eoin Ó Broin. It is the chartered surveyors and they are telling the Taoiseach that his initiative will inflate the cost by €4,000. I am asking him not to do that. That is it. Do not do that. Do not move forward with that levy. It is a simple as that.

2:15 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Go bunúsach, an polasaí atá ag Sinn Féin ná Tadhg an dá thaobh, i gcónaí. They are on both sides all of the time. By the way, Animal Farmapplies to the Deputy’s party more than any other party in this Dáil any day. There is no question about that.

Photo of Matt CarthyMatt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is that as good as the Taoiseach is getting?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ask a lot of the dissidents and a lot of the people who left her party down through the years. They can verify the degree to which Animal Farmapplies to it. That is why Orwell-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome our visitors from Ballyhaunis secondary school. It is why Orwell should always be a core part of the second level curriculum, just to prepare us.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Muinteoir anseo.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The danger, of course, is that the party opposite, as I have said, in particular take 1984as an instruction manual and it does it very well, holding many contradictory opinions at the same time.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach's party wants to do away with history.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the chartered surveyors, they have come up with a calculation without even seeing the detailed design of the levy. The Finance Bill will work out the detailed design of the levy itself. The Department of Finance’s calculations are much lower than what the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland has indicated. Of course, the working out of all of this will be in the context of the Finance Bill.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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There were two stories over the weekend which really typify everything that is wrong with the Government's approach to housing. The Irish Mail on Sundayreported that State lender, Home Building Finance Ireland, has entirely financed the construction of 211 apartments in Clonsilla. It has not financed homes that will be owned by the State or apartments that will be leased on a cost-rental basis. These are apartments that have been block-bought by one of the biggest and wealthiest institutional landlords in the country, Urbeo. The State is entirely financing this deal but the ultimate beneficiary will be an investment fund charging sky-high rents for these apartments when they are completed.

Meanwhile, the Business Post has reported on an extraordinary intervention by another investment fund in north County Dublin, which is hoovering up starter homes in Castleview in Swords. Typically, these homes sell for between €200,000 and €350,000. Earlier this year, a three-bedroom, end-of-terrace home sold for a gigantic €1.7 million and another home in the estate went for a huge €850,000. On just one day in April, this fund, ICAV, bought nine homes in Castleview. Prices for seven of these homes did not reach the dizzying heights of €1.7 million but they were all sold for a premium of between €20,000 and €88,000 over the median market price.

Last year, the Taoiseach told the Dáil: "The Government does not believe that funds should be competing with owner-occupiers or first-time buyers in buying up houses that have already been built." Is he standing over that statement today? For a first-time buyer eager to buy a home in Castleview earlier this year who missed out, the Taoiseach's commitment to prioritise first-time buyers will ring hollow indeed. Despite his assurance that investment funds would not compete with first-time buyers, it is clear they continue to do so.

They are having a considerable distortive effect on the market. How are first-time buyers, or any ordinary buyer, supposed to compete with a fund that can pay such a premium for three-bedroom terraced homes? The funds are willing to spend so much because the State is entering into long-term lease agreements for these homes, which will see the funds' large investments handsomely repaid over 25 years.

Will the Taoiseach apologise for misleading the House when he stated that investment funds should not compete for homes with first-time buyers? Will he give a commitment that State funds will not be used to bankroll developments for investment funds? Will he act to stop investment funds from snapping up family homes that are desperately needed by first-time buyers and owner occupiers?

2:20 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising these two important issues. The weakness and distortion in her presentation have to do with her use of the word that the two individual cases she has identified "typify" the Government's response. They do not typify the Government's response at all and she should know that well. By this I mean that the State itself is building and, through the approved social housing bodies, providing thousands and thousands of social homes and affordable homes as an overall proportion of the number of houses that are being built.

In 2021, non-household entities purchased 11,600 units, or 20% of the total units purchased, which was down from 22% in 2020 and 2019. When I say "non-household entities", this includes the State, approved housing bodies and private companies. The State accounts for the largest single share of purchases within the non-household category, at 32% of purchases by non-households. The institutional purchasers - this involves all units in terms of apartments - purchased just 9% of total units sold last year. First-time buyers accounted for 26% of all properties purchased in 2021. As I said earlier, more first-time buyers bought their first homes in the past 12 months than in any year since 2008. The State's purchases are largely concentrated in houses, with 66% of State purchases being houses.

Regarding Home Building Finance Ireland, HBFI, the Deputy will recall that, during Covid and as a direct response to the initial impact of Covid-19, HBFI launched a time-bound initiative - the momentum fund - to allow it to provide finance for larger prime residential projects that were experiencing difficulties at that time in accessing finance. This was an agile and time-bound response, which was in keeping with HBFI's mandate. It was a step-in initiative. The end date for the momentum fund approvals was 31 December 2021. As such, it does not typify, but it was a response that HBFI took at the time to try to make sure that supply continued and projects got finished. Overall, the only way we can resolve and make inroads into the housing issue is by supply.

In respect of the article in the Business Post, my understanding is that that was a fund that bought from a fund. It was not competing with first-time buyers in that case. Where units are already assigned to social housing with leases of 25 years, at the time of sale, these properties are required to remain in social housing for the entirety of their leases. Therefore, any subsequent sale of those properties would not be in competition with purchasers seeking a home, nor would it increase the cost to the State of leasing the units.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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When this phenomenon was brought to the Taoiseach's attention a couple of years ago, he seemed completely unaware of it. Belatedly, the Government moved to stop the practice of funds buying up homes and put a limit on them.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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However, it is clear that the practice is still continuing in respect of houses. Regarding apartments, though, the State is on both sides, which the Taoiseach said should not be the case. The Housing Finance Agency is providing funding to bankroll developers in providing apartments and, in turn, the State is taking out long-term leases.

This is the most expensive way of providing housing. The Taoiseach said that this approach was going to end and that we were going to enter a new period. Yet, just in July, the Government established a €450 million fund for long-term leases. It is impossible for first-time buyers in Dublin to buy a new home. Obviously, because of prices, it is impossible for them to buy houses, and there are also no apartments for sale. Therefore, this situation is having a hugely distorting impact on the housing market.

2:25 pm

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy. I call the Taoiseach to respond.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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The Taoiseach needs to act and to honour the commitment he gave to first-time buyers.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not actually having a hugely distorting impact. The problem is that we are not building enough houses or apartments, full stop. The State-----

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Why are developers not building apartments?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Deputy to look at the figures and be honest about this for once, and not to continually distort the debate about housing. It gets distorted as if the only players were institutional providers. They are not. They are minority players in the overall scheme of things in terms of the construction of houses. The State is the biggest actor, through social housing, affordable housing and a variety of financial mechanisms.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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And long-term leasing.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Right across the board, the State is building the houses or contributing to affordability. We are not building enough houses. What I have noticed over the last two years is that the line of attack has been to pick one particular example or illustration and to endeavour to make it the norm in the narrative and presentation of how the housing situation stands. It is not that way at all, however. We need to be building 35,000 to 40,000 houses, in my view, at this stage. The population is going over 5 million, and is increasing. More than 70,000 people came into the country this year, with people returning home and coming here to work. We need more houses of all types. The attempts to exclude some will not help the overall effort.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Táimid ag bogadh ar aghaidh.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Why are the funds buying them?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy knows there is a limit on what they can do now. They cannot buy-----

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach. We are moving on. I call Deputy Nolan.

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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The student accommodation crisis has become something of a permanent issue for students who are trying to access third level education in this State. The Union of Students in Ireland, USI, has said that the situation is the worst it has ever been. Students in Galway are sleeping in tents and are protesting not just at the deficit in accommodation, but also at the absolute absence of student accommodation in this State. Last September, representatives of USI were outside the gates of this House, protesting at the fact that thousands of students had been left without a place to live at the start of the new academic year. At the beginning of this September, the chaplain of the new Technological University of the Shannon said he understood that the number of beds available to students in Athlone this year had fallen by 500 because of the unprecedented number of international protection applicants who have been housed in this region. Perhaps the kindest thing we can say about all this is that it is an omnishambles, which has been made worse and prolonged as a direct result of Government policy and the failure to act quickly enough when it became clear that private and institutional on-campus accommodation was being gobbled up to meet the demands of what the Minister for housing has described as "our international obligations".

I wish to focus on another element of this crisis. We are now confronted with a very real danger that access to third level education will again become the preserve of the wealthy and those fortunate enough to have very high incomes. This is what is happening. With rent levels now routinely approaching €1,000 per month, it is next to impossible for the majority of students to afford this without incurring substantial debt or deferring indefinitely. Even those on the highest rate of Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grants cannot afford such rates. This is not only tragic but ironic, given that it was the admirable actions of statesmen like Donogh O'Malley which proved instrumental in opening our education system to those who had been excluded because of a lack of means. Over 50 years ago and under one Fianna Fáil Minister, access to education became a right. Under the current Fianna Fáil Minister for housing and the Taoiseach's Government, this may yet regress to become a privilege. It does not make any difference if this is not the Taoiseach's intention. It is the result of the Government's policies, which are plain to see.

I accept that the Minister, Deputy Harris, has secured a reduction in costs in the budget but all of those benefits will remain purely theoretical - or, I might even say, academic - if getting to college goes the same way as home ownership more generally, which is a fading dream for an entire generation. Will the Taoiseach commit to re-establishing the education disadvantage committee, which did great work and which can become a forum to tackle this issue and the barriers to third level education?

2:35 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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First of all, I would say that the situation is challenging in respect of student accommodation. It is reflective of the wider issues in terms of housing supply and new construction, and also viability issues in terms of land that universities own but are not in a position to develop with developers on the basis of what they believe is a viability gap between the cost of that student accommodation if it was to be built and what students could realistically be prepared to pay. The Minister has met with the presidents and chairs of all the traditional universities and the technological universities to discuss any immediate proposals they may have identified for additional student accommodation provision in the short to medium term. The Department is continuing to work with them in that regard. That said, the University of Galway was in a position this academic year to provide an additional 670 bed spaces which will come on stream not immediately but later this year.

There is an issue of viability in terms of the cost of building which is somewhat similar to what we had to do with the Croí Cónaithe scheme. We introduced the Croí Cónaithe scheme to deal with the viability gap in brownfield sites in built-up dense areas of inner cities. The market is saying it cannot build on such sites for affordable prices and the State has had to intervene to try to bridge that viability gap. The same has applied in respect of student accommodation and we are looking at mechanisms to see how we can do that.

Successive Fianna Fáil Ministers, include me in the late 1990s and early 2000s, took measures that have resulted in very high participation rates in third level education in Ireland. Ireland enjoys one of the highest participation rates in third level education in Europe. That said, I accept that accommodation and its cost is the big problem for students.

This year the Ministers, Deputy Harris and Michael McGrath, brought in a range of measures in the budget to support students, not least the reduction of fees by €1,000. The SUSI grant of €17.4 million will allow a once-off extra payment, equivalent to one month's maintenance, to be made to all student maintenance grant recipients by December. A once-off increase of €1,000 will support postgraduate students who meet the eligibility criteria for a postgraduate fee contribution grant. That grant will now go up to €4,500. Some €8 million is being put into the student assistance fund. A once-off payment of €500 is being made in 2022 to PhD students who receive an Irish Research Council or Science Foundation Ireland award. The Minister has taken a range of other measures to offer relief to students in 2023-24 and make things a bit more manageable for them during what is a very difficult period with the energy situation. We have brought in the rent credit of €1,000. It will be of value of €1,000 to renters, €500 in 2022 and €500 in 2023. Student accommodation is capped under the rent pressure zones.

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I acknowledged the measures that were brought in to alleviate the pressures. However, it is not enough. This crisis has been years in the making. We have all met USI representatives. We have all met college and university representatives, who have told us about this and said quite clearly that this crisis would become worse.

I would like to know if the Taoiseach will answer the question. This is a real barrier for students now and it will deter many students from going to college. Unfortunately, college and third level education will become a preserve of the wealthy if action is not taken on this issue. I ask the Taoiseach if his Government will reinstate the education disadvantage committee to try to focus on this issue and deal quickly with it.

The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, is talking about meeting "international obligations" but he also needs to focus on meeting the needs of our student population. We have tens of thousands of students without accommodation. That is the reality. Unfortunately, that is the fact of the matter. I am getting calls every day of the week from students all over the country who cannot source accommodation.

2:45 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, talks about international obligations, he is talking about the need for the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, for example, to procure a lot of hotel accommodation for those fleeing war. We should not juxtapose people fleeing a terrible war with the student accommodation crisis. Many students would support the Government's approach in supporting refugees fleeing a terrible war. We need analysis. I do not believe that this will allow or facilitate third level education becoming the preserve of the rich. I do accept, however, that we need to take urgent measures - it will take time to get new blocks built - to bridge the viability gap between what universities say they can realistically construct in purpose-built student accommodation and what they could subsequently rent out to students at affordable prices. At the moment that gap is far too wide. Now they are asking the State to intervene to try to bridge that gap. The State is becoming, if you like, the house provider of last resort in a lot of situations in the current housing market, but we are looking at that very seriously.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I welcome the students from Ballyhaunis, Cloonfad, Garranlahan, Ballinlough and several areas in County Roscommon.

When the programme for Government was being put together there was great talk about a rural environment protection scheme, REPS, 2 scheme for farmers. A large part of the carbon budget was supposed to go towards that. I have talked to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine many a time about this. I have gone to marts when it has not been popular for Opposition Deputies to stand up and to agree with a new policy in the line of the new Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, the areas of natural constraint, ANC, policy or the new organic payment that is coming out.

The new agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, payment, however, appears to be a problem. Over the weekend I was inundated with calls from planners who were given a draft, had an information day and were told that would be it and that this is what we are going on. I will give the Taoiseach an example. If you did 2 ha in a riparian zone, you got €3,000. Lo and behold, all those planners who had done out the new plan for farmers, because they were trying to get ahead of the posse, ended up being told Friday evening, sorry but it is being cut to 1 ha at €1,530. I am not blaming the Minister for this, and we know the debacle that went on in forestry, but, funnily enough, the hierarchy in forestry seems to be the same hierarchy for this environmental scheme. There are two years to prepare for it at the moment. The generic land-mapping system is giving trouble. The whole basis of where we are going in this scheme is very hard for a smaller farmer on 30, 40 or 50 acres, whom the scheme should be targeted at to make sure we get as many people in as possible. I know there is talk of 30,000 people going into the scheme but, at the moment, unless, first of all, the final spec is given to planners, there will be a serious difficulty. I am not imagining this. I got it in the ear all weekend. Second, the deadline needs to be extended to at least the end of November. Third, we need to rejig whatever went out on Friday evening on the riparian zone. We also need to make the scheme more workable for the 30, 40 or 50 acre farmer. Will the Taoiseach, along with his Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, as a Government, make this as workable as we can for those smaller farmers and come clean to the planners who are at it at the moment? What has happened is that plans are done out already and now they have to be changed again since last Friday evening. When you ring Paddy and tell him he was getting €3,000 but now is getting €1,530, the Taoiseach knows what he will get on the phone from those planners. Will the Government look at this?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. As he will know, the new ACRES is worth about €1.5 billion over five years, the largest ever and 50% higher than the amount for the previous scheme. The riparian scheme remains 2 ha for €3,000. That has not been cut or changed. It is important that clarity is out there.

I have just confirmed with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine that there is no change to that. It is a scheme that we want to see rolled out as quickly as possible. As the Deputy knows, about €1.5 billion has been retained from carbon tax revenues to fund and contribute to this ambitious agri-environmental scheme. We anticipate 50,000 participants, with a maximum payment of up to €10,500 for individual farmers. Under the next CAP programme, which starts in 2023, some €723 million of carbon tax funding has already been allocated to support sustainable farming practices through a flagship agri-environmental climate measure and there is a variety of other supports there.

We want to make the scheme as workable as possible but if there are issues with the roll-out of the scheme that Deputy Fitzmaurice feels need modification to make it more workable, I have no doubt that the Minister and the team in the Department will be more than willing to engage and respond. This is a very important scheme in the context of the overall agenda ahead. If we are to maintain food security and sustainable food production and meet our climate obligations, we need workable solutions. Farming is interested in workable solutions. We need to plant many more trees than we are currently planting. There are issues that we have to address in terms of the land use change and forestry chapter of the climate action plan. We want to create funding streams for farming and agriculture and to have sustainable food production.

Overall, I hear what the Deputy is saying but I want to assure him that we are up for making this as workable as possible. The Minister, Deputy McConalogue, is engaging in a process with the dairy sector under the chairmanship of Professor Gerry Boyle, the former director of Teagasc, and also involving Professor Thia Hennessy in University College Cork, to make sure we can have a workable model here.

2:50 pm

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his response but I want to put it on record that last Friday evening planners got emails-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What planners?

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The planners are the people who prepare plans for farmers and the Department liaises with them. Last Friday evening they got emails stating that the riparian zone was being cut to 1 ha. I welcome what the Minister and the Taoiseach have said today to clarify that it is staying as it is, which will stop a lot of confusion.

The other issue that needs to be looked at is the fact that if a farmer has 100 or 120 acres, this is okay. However, for smaller farmers in the west of Ireland and many other parts of Ireland, it is more difficult. When those farmers were in the previous scheme - the green low-carbon agri-environment scheme - they might have received €3,500 or €4,000. They did not get the full scheme payment because they did not have enough area to do so, but some of those farmers are down on money with the new system. I ask for flexibility for that group of farmers.

Also, there is a thing in it that we never in our lives were told to do. There is a part in it whereby farmers will cut half of a field if there are rushes in it and leave the other half. For God's sake, something needs to change so that farmers can cut the full field of rushes.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not going to pretend I am the most knowledgeable on these matters but I actually watched a video the other night of a farmer who did just that. He had created bird cover and he said that the impact on the production side was positive and beneficial. We need to keep an open mind about how we use land into the future. We have to broaden our horizons too in some respects. The 20-acre and 30-acre farmers that Deputy Fitzmaurice is talking about could benefit a lot from this. We should look at ways to increase income streams around biodiversity, with farmers in that situation being guardians of our biodiversity-----

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Snails.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry? It is a serious matter. We have huge biodiversity loss in the country and we need to protect it. We need to create an income stream too and an incentive for farmers to help us to guard and protect our biodiversity. That is the point I am making. We are very open to trying to help and to being creative and innovative about it because that is the future.