Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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85. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the way that he intends to solve the recruitment crisis across the public sector in Dublin given the lack of availability of affordable rents and the high cost of housing; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48394/22]

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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100. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the way that he intends to solve the recruitment crisis across the public sector, particularly in the major urban centres given the lack of availability of affordable rents or house prices; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48310/22]

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am sure, or I hope, the Minister is aware that we have a major crisis in being able to recruit and retain teachers, nurses, other allied health professionals and people in the mental health area and many other key areas, such as construction and so on. At the back of all of this, as the reports coming out make clear if it was not already clear, is the lack of affordable housing for people, particularly in areas like Dublin and the epicentres of the housing crisis. I ask what the Minister is doing from a public expenditure point of view to address this recruitment crisis and the housing crisis that lies behind it.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 85 and 100 together.

The level of employment in Ireland reached more than 2.55 million people in the second quarter of this year, the highest level ever. Increased labour force participation has been a key factor behind the strong employment recovery. Despite some expected softening in the labour market over the next year or so, tight conditions and skills shortages for some sectors are likely to persist in the labour market. This creates challenges for all employers, including the Civil Service and wider public service. However, it is important to point out that, notwithstanding these challenges, the public service has continued to grow its staff numbers very significantly.

Between 2015 and 2021, for example, overall serving numbers in full-time equivalent terms increased from approximately 302,000 to 366,000, an increase of 64,000 or more than 20%. Over 2022 alone, the numbers employed are estimated to increase by almost 15,000, or 4%.

Pay in the public service has been governed by a system of collective agreements since the Croke Park agreement was negotiated in 2010. The Deputy is familiar with the background to this. In previous replies, I have put on record where we stand on extending the Building Momentum pay deal, which, if approved, will result in further significant pay increases of 6.5% between now and the end of next year, with 3% of that backdated to 2 February 2022. I understand that the public services committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, will convene later this week to aggregate the ballots of the different results by the unions. We have already had two results, with teaching unions confirming that they have ratified the deal. The extension will help recruitment in the public service but there is an issue, and not just in the public service. Across a range of sectors, including the private sector, attracting labour is a challenge. However, I would point to the overall numbers. According to a report that I saw in the Department recently, the number of staff at the end of quarter 2 had reached 370,000. In budget 2023, we have provided funding across the public service to increase that to more than 390,000 by the end of next year. This is coming from a base of 302,000 in 2015, so we have had a very significant expansion of the public service, but I acknowledge that we have challenges across a range of areas.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They are a hell of a lot more than challenges. There is one nurse to 14 patients on wards in St. Vincent's hospital. We have major shortages of staff across the healthcare system, including mental health services, and among special needs assistants, SNAs. Teachers are leaving Dublin - we have seen the reports - because they cannot afford to live here. Reeling off statistics about public sector recruitment will not cut it.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are facts.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They may be facts but they do not explain why we have major staff shortages across our health service and, therefore, long waiting lists and a crisis in our emergency departments, and classes being cancelled because teachers have nowhere to live. What are we going to do about this?

I have a proposal. The Minister stated that we should not spend the windfall tax receipts on ongoing expenditure. He was right. Why do we not invest those receipts in buying more housing instead of letting the large investment funds buy up property and charge extortionate rents that teachers, nurses and construction workers cannot afford? Would that not be a sensible investment of that money?

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy well knows, the Government, through local authorities, approved housing bodies and the Land Development Agency, LDA, is embarking on the largest public house-building programme that this State has seen, and rightly so. The Deputy was correct in his outline of the scale of the challenge, which is most acute in Dublin but is present elsewhere around the country as well. For the reasons the Deputy raised, the Government introduced a cost-of-living budget. We are reducing childcare costs by a quarter next year, continuing for another year with the 20% reduction in public transport fares and the 50% reduction for young people, eliminating inpatient hospital charges across the healthcare system, reducing education costs at primary level, and increasing Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grants at third level.

The Deputy is right about much of this coming back to housing. That is why we are focused on delivering on the house-building programme. Was it the Deputy's suggestion that the State step in to buy completed developments or individual units? He might wish to elaborate.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I do. I invite the Minister to drive with me along the N11 towards Cherrywood and down to Shankill. At the end of the road, he will find the LDA's first site, but there will not be houses there for another two years. Before we get there, he will see many large apartment developments that are nearing completion or have just been completed. Who will own them and who will live in them? Currently, international investment funds will own them. They will rent them for €2,500 to €3,000 per month, which none of the workers at St. Vincent's hospital or the schoolteachers who are leaving Dublin can afford. If the State uses the money it has in the rainy day fund to buy them and then designate some for affordable purchase and some for social housing, those teachers, nurses and construction workers who need to work and live in Dublin could afford to do so. Would that direct investment in housing people now not be better expenditure than paying large amounts on the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, the housing assistance payment, HAP, and leasing, which is ongoing current expenditure?

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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It is not my place to try to answer Deputy Boyd Barrett's question but I will propose a solution that I would like the Minister to listen to. I would make a case for my home of Limerick - I am sure that the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, makes this case to the Minister daily - as a solution to the challenges facing Ireland. As Deputy Boyd Barrett outlined, it is difficult for people to purchase homes in Dublin. Dublin faces significant challenges - it is crowded and expensive. Limerick offers a solution. The much maligned decentralisation programme actually worked in Limerick, with Revenue and Irish Aid decentralising to there. Their decentralisation was successful. I encourage all Ministers to look to Limerick as a solution to Dublin's problems.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The LDA's Project Tosaigh will do much of what Deputy Boyd Barrett suggests. Recently, the Government discussed a developing situation whereby a significant number of sites had been earmarked for build-to-rent apartments but the private sector was unlikely to proceed with those developments because of changes in the interest rate environment. They can now look elsewhere for returns in non-property investments. For example, they can buy Government bonds and so on. The apartment model is probably less attractive now than it was six to 12 months ago. The LDA is positioned, is capitalised and has the resources to step in, purchase and develop out those schemes.

There is potential. Like the Deputy, we want a reduced dependence on current expenditure and rental supports and an increased emphasis on capital expenditure and building permanent homes.