Dáil debates

Wednesday, 13 July 2022

Ceisteanna - Questions

Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

1:30 pm

Photo of Neale RichmondNeale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Dutch Prime Minister. [27626/22]

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Dutch Prime Minister. [32141/22]

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Prime Minister of the Netherlands. [35583/22]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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12. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Dutch Prime Minister. [36007/22]

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Dutch Prime Minister. [36010/22]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 to 13, inclusive, together.

The Prime Minister of the Netherlands, Mark Rutte, travelled to Dublin to meet me on 23 May. I was pleased to host him and his delegation for a working dinner at Farmleigh House. Ireland and the Netherlands are like-minded on a wide range of issues, and we co-operate closely at EU level. Coming ahead of the special meeting of the European Council at the end of May, and its regular meeting in June, my meeting with Prime Minister Rutte was a useful opportunity to discuss current EU and international issues, especially Russia's war on Ukraine, its consequences and our collective response to it; climate action, especially in the field of energy; and the EU's relationship with the UK.

With our EU partners, Ireland and the Netherlands have been steadfast in our outright condemnation of Putin's unprovoked and immoral war on Ukraine. The EU has acted swiftly and with great unity in our political, humanitarian, economic and military response. My discussion with Prime Minister Rutte covered all dimensions of the issue as it stood at that time: the humanitarian situation and the financial supports that will be needed by Ukraine in the immediate and longer terms; and the range and impact of sanctions on Russia. We also touched on Ukraine's application for EU membership in response to which, as the House will be aware, the June European Council granted Ukraine candidate status. We also discussed how to accelerate decarbonisation of our economies and societies, break our dependence on fossil fuels, and provide a more resilient, secure and sustainable energy system for future generations.

I briefed the Prime Minister on Ireland's climate policy approach and on the legislative framework now in place to support achievement of our targets. We also expressed our strong support for the EU Fit for 55 legislative package, on which significant progress has been made by the French Presidency over recent months. We reflected on our respective experiences of responding to the Covid-19 pandemic, and on the unprecedented work at EU level on vaccines and the economic recovery package, Next Generation EU. I also briefed the Prime Minister on developments in Northern Ireland and on the protocol. Prime Minister Rutte reaffirmed his very strong solidarity with Ireland, and his support for the work of the European Commission in seeking to find practical solutions to problems that have arisen in implementing the protocol. I took the opportunity to convey my thanks to the Prime Minister for his country's solidarity and support. The Prime Minister and I will continue to work closely together, bilaterally and in the European Council.

Photo of Neale RichmondNeale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I will touch on two areas briefly concerning the Taoiseach's discussions. Both concern the ongoing war in Ukraine that was launched by Russia. I would appreciate if it is possible for the Taoiseach to expand on a point he referred to concerning the financial supports Ukraine will need. Does this feed into the wider concept that has emerged subsequently in the EU of a need for a new form of a Marshall Plan for Ukraine? I think a conference in Switzerland is planned on this aspect soon. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Coveney, told the House last week about a pledging amount and how Ireland could co-operate with the Netherlands on this aspect. The Netherlands has shown brilliant solidarity with Ireland on Brexit issues, but when it comes to solidarity with Ukraine, has a plan been mapped out concerning how Ireland and the Netherlands can work together to expedite the rightful accession of Ukraine into the EU?

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Mark Rutte is a long-serving Prime Minister of the Netherlands and his steadfast solidarity and support for Ireland on the protocol issue and the Good Friday Agreement is greatly welcomed, as the Taoiseach said. The prime minister is very influential regarding future developments in the EU. Did the Taoiseach discuss with him the Conference on the Future of Europe? As we know, this concluded on 9 May 2022 and listed 320 measures and recommendations. It recommended treaty changes regarding making health a shared competence, switching from unanimity to qualified majority voting and increasing the powers of the European Parliament. How likely is it that these three matters will be advanced? I think it is unlikely that there will be any treaty change advanced as this issue is considered. Additionally, I am told that a detailed assessment of all the recommendations will be undertaken across all relevant Government Departments in the coming months, which will be overseen by the Department of Foreign Affairs. I ask that the House be kept informed of developments concerning this detailed assessment that will be overseen by the Department of Foreign Affairs.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Dutch have rent controls that are not dissimilar to the ones we put forward, which the Taoiseach’s Government rejected. It was claimed that our proposals were "illiterate" and "unworkable". Perhaps the Taoiseach should have asked Mark Rutte about how the rent controls work in the Netherlands. That country has a points system for the quality and size of a property. The majority of properties below a certain standard are subject to maximum rent caps. This means that the Netherlands does not have the exponential rental crisis we have that is immiserating so many people. The Taoiseach should know that our housing costs are 78% higher than the EU average. Our rents have jumped by more than 70% in the last ten years, while rents in the rest of Europe have only increased by 13% on average. This has been the case because the Dutch, the Germans and the Austrians have rent controls, and we could go on through that list. Therefore, the next time the Taoiseach is chatting to the Dutch Prime Minister, he should ask him how the rent controls work in the Netherlands and perhaps consider introducing something similar here

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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It sounds like the discussion about solidarity with Ukraine took up a fair amount of time during the talks with Prime Minister Rutte. In that context, did the Taoiseach and the Prime Minister speak about the crucial issue of debt relief for Ukraine or are they happy for money to continue to flood out of Ukraine to pay for unsustainable and odious debts? Debt repayments this year amount to €6 billion more than the total education budget of Ukraine. Some €2.5 billion of those repayments is owed to the International Monetary Fund, IMF, alone, which is the biggest holder of Ukrainian debt. The truth is that Ukraine's debt is growing because of the crisis that has arisen as a consequence of the horrendous and brutal Russian invasion of the country. Ukraine's debt has already grown by more than €5 billion this year. Surely then it does not make sense on the one hand to have a Marshall Plan for Ukraine - and we are in favour of investment to help the reconstruction of the country - while on the other hand to continue to say that the odious and illegitimate debts that are the consequence of the oligarchisation of Ukrainian society should continue to be paid. It does not make sense to give with one hand and then to take back with the other. Surely, we need to have immediate debt relief and debt cancellation for the Ukrainian people.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Richmond raised the issue of financial support. There are two elements to this. There is the current financial crisis facing Ukraine. I met with President Zelenskyy and I was the first Taoiseach to visit Kyiv. I just received a letter from the President thanking Ireland and me personally for supporting the historic decision of the European Council of June 23 to grant Ukraine the official status of a candidate country for membership of the EU. President Zelenskyy has written to us articulating his gratitude to Ireland for our proactive support.

EU leaders have now agreed to support Ukraine via exceptional macro financial assistance of up to €9 billion in 2022.

That is to try to enable Ukraine to deal with current budgetary issues.

There is a further issue around the reconstruction of Ukraine post the war or in parallel with it continuing. The Ukraine Recovery Conference took place in Lugano at which Ireland was represented by the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming. We joined in the signing of the Lugano declaration, which sets out seven principles to guide Ukraine's recovery process. The Ukraine-led draft of the recovery and development plan presented at Lugano recently is the overarching framework guiding the recovery process and allows for co-ordinated multi-stakeholder participation and partnerships.

We contributed towards non-lethal elements of the European Peace Facility, bringing our total support to approximately €44 million of the overall €2 billion in support provided under the four packages. We provided a further €20 million in humanitarian aid, as well as medical assistance and supplies amounting to €4.3 million. That covers some of what Deputy Murphy raised.

When I spoke to President Zelenskyy, we discussed Ukraine's economy and finances. There has been a 50% reduction in its GDP. Its economy is in crisis because of the war. Therefore, a number of strategies need to be deployed. It is not a simple matter of waiving debt. That is not the way these issues will be resolved. I also met with Ukraine's Prime Minister, Denys Shmyhal. He met with the International Monetary Fund, IMF, to develop a structured approach not just to the current budgetary issues, such as continuing to pay civil servants and keeping everyone going, but also to the reconstruction of Ukraine.

On Deputy Haughey's points about the Conference on the Future of Europe and treaty change, I would keep an open view. He is correct in that it will be very challenging to get agreement on a treaty change among the 27 EU states. I support the idea of making public health a shared competence given our experience of Covid-19, the procurement of vaccines at a European Union level, the establishment of the Humanities in the European Research Area, HERA, institute, and the need to upgrade the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, ECDC. There are a lot of lessons we should learn from the handling of Covid at a European level. The difference between the European Union's approach to Covid and its approach to SARS in the early 2000s, when I was the Minister for Health, is unbelievable in terms of the scale of co-ordination this time around compared with the previous time. I believe it worked, so we need to be open minded about that in terms of treaty change. Getting treaty change is a huge challenge in itself. We will keep the House informed of the development of detailed analysis by the Government and the Department of Foreign Affairs regarding the recommendations of the Conference on the Future of Europe. The Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, is actively working on that.

We have rent controls.

1:40 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Ireland has a rent pressure zone, RPZ, rate of 2%, and that is a fact. Looking at the data-----

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Surely the Taoiseach does not believe they are working.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are working for existing houses and the Deputy knows that. By the way, I did speak to Prime Minister Mark Rutte about housing. The Dutch have huge challenges in housing and they have to build on an even greater scale than us. There is not a country that does not have issues with housing, particularly in cities.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is much worse here though.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Dutch are not in as benign a situation as the Deputy suggests.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They are in a better situation.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I dealt with most of what Deputy Murphy raised. The overall story is that Ukraine's application to join the European Union opens the door for substantial funding by the European Union and the world more generally for Ukraine. Other countries have come together, especially during the Lugano conference, and committed to supporting the reconstruction of Ukraine given the extraordinary devastation that has been wreaked by Russia under Vladimir Putin's Government.