Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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I will raise the issue of the Government plan for special education centres as an emergency response to the shortage of appropriate school places reported in The Irish Timeslast night. It caused significant alarm to the organisations representing parents and children with special needs, and the parents who have been campaigning very hard to get their children the places in school they need, which may be supports in mainstream classes or special classes in mainstream schools. The idea people will just be put into these special centres caused a lot of alarm. There is also the worry that will be they will be forgotten about and this will be institutionalised. There is a meeting with the Minister today that includes groups such as AsIAm. I am interested in hearing about that.

I will go through the concerns the groups and I have. The first is there was no consultation before this was announced. It seems very strange. It has been only a matter of weeks since we had an indication from the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Madigan, that we would be going the route of section 37A of the relevant Act by directing the schools to open classes. That was generally welcomed by parents because that is what they feel needs to happen, but all of a sudden these special education centres were announced, which seems to be a 180-degree policy turn with no consultation.

The second major point is the real concern that what is presented as an interim measure becomes permanent. We know of circumstances like that too often in this State. Many things still with us today - direct provision is perhaps one of the worst examples - were interim measures. There is also concern about the numbers included in the plan. It states there will be five schools with 24 pupils each, which amounts to space for 120 pupils, but there are 80 children in Dublin waiting for a special class at this stage and those numbers relate to Dublin. That also gives rise to alarm about why we have an extra 40 spaces. Is it because they will be filled over a number of years? Is this how long it is planned to be for?

Another important point is the danger this will be a move away from integrated education for students. Where will these buildings be? Clearly, if they are meant to be in use by September, they will not be new buildings and they exist somewhere. If they are not existing schools, we will not have potential for integration time for students without additional needs. That is a very important and recognised thing that is necessary for students. The Tánaiste stated earlier that some students need special schools. I acknowledge that and have no problem with it, butThe Irish Timesstory certainly does not refer to those students and their needs; it refers to those children who are waiting for a special class in Dublin, that is, a special class in mainstream schools. That is what has been diagnosed for those children as most appropriate for them and that is what would represent a vindication of their rights.

The fundamental point I will make is this is a way of not doing what is necessary to vindicate these children's rights, including under the UN Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities and the route of going down section 37A by directing schools to open places. It is then about resourcing the schools appropriately, but that is what is necessary. This is a way of getting away from the pressure by saying at least people have a place - it may not be the best place but at least they have a place - and we avoid this question of needing to get many more special classes opened in mainstream schools in primary and post-primary education.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I very much thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I am glad the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, Deputy Rabbitte, is present to listen to his comments. There was not much we disagreed with on the substance of his points, quite frankly. In fairness to the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, there was not much she would disagree with either. The bottom line is no decision has been made about this. I apologise on behalf of the Minister of State that she is not present. She is attending the Middletown Centre for Autism today, which is another place that does essential work on a North-South basis. It is very important to remember that.

Enabling children with special educational needs to receive an education appropriate to their needs is a constitutional right and a priority for this Government. This year, the Department of Education will invest €2 billion, or more than 25% of its budget, in the area of special educational needs support. The truth is the number of special education teachers, special needs assistants, SNAs, special classes and school places are all at unprecedented levels. In budget 2022, we provided for the creation of 287 additional special classes. There are many more special classes then there were. I accept there are not enough but there are a lot more and significant progress has been made. I thank those schools that have co-operated with the Department in looking for these classes, which will provide 1,700 new places this year. That brings the total number of special classes to 2,435. In 2011, there were 548 special classes in mainstream schools and there are 2,148 in this particular school year.

The Department of Education recognises some of the difficulties experienced by parents in securing appropriate school placements, which is of major concern to all of us, including the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and myself. Certainly, in my former role it was a major priority. I am very proud to be the person, on behalf of my party, who put forward the legislation to allow the Minister to force schools to open classes. That was a very important issue for me. I am very passionate about it, as is this Government. I do not think there is any doubt about that. The streamlining process, joined-up planning process and forecasting process, which was not there but is now, is allowing us to be more targeted in meeting the demand for special needs placements ahead of each school year. The approach is starting to deliver because we have seen 300 special classes providing 1,800 places since the start of this year. The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, has responsibility for co-ordinating and advising on the education provision for children with special educational needs. It has well-established structures in place for engaging with schools and parents.

The Department of Education recognises that where parents have difficulties in securing an appropriate school placement for their child, particularly a child with additional needs, it can be, and is, a stressful experience. We all know that from talking to the constituents who come to us. The Department is working hard to ensure there are sufficient school places, appropriate to the needs of all children, available on a timely basis nationwide. As I said, this is a constitutional right that has to be put in place for children.

In line with the demographics and as part of forward planning, it is envisaged that special classes will be required at most, if not all, post-primary schools in Dublin. A range of measures to meet additional special education needs capacity demands have already been put in place, including the utilisation of spare capacity in existing schools and the delivery of additional capacity within the scope of existing school building projects. Additionally, it is now general practice to include a special educational needs base in the accommodation brief for new school buildings unless there are exceptional local circumstances. However, the extent of provision made at these schools is informed by the level of demand in the area as well as the size of the school.

The NCSE is currently engaged in a process of establishing new classes for next year and beyond.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State's time is up.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I had better continue this because it is the important part.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State will have a chance to speak again.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but this is important. One of the options being discussed-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is important that we keep to the deadline as well.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that, but this is the nub of the issue. One of the options being discussed by the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, is to open-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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As I said, it is a proposal, not a decision.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Yes. The line is that the proposal is a temporary option for those who are waiting. It is a draft, etc. I get the message. Nonetheless, there is a proposal. AsIAm put a statement up on Facebook after the meeting saying that, like here, the Department had sought to assure it that no decision had been made and that the Department had listened to the concerns, but AsIAm makes the point that the current proposal - which means there is clearly still a proposal - is not something that its organisation could ever support. The Department needs to go back to the drawing board and examine how this proposal was devised.

I welcome section 37A and it needs to be used, although that is not easy to do. It has only been used twice, but the need is great. I will use the example of Dublin 24, which is part of where I represent. The situation with post-primary schools there is phenomenal. A couple of weeks ago, the Taoiseach described it to me in the Dáil as "crazy". There are 17 primary schools with a special class but only one - it will increase to two - such school at post-primary level. Generally, the ratio across the country is 2.2:1 or 2.3:1, so this area is out of whack. I was in touch with a campaigner who told me that she had a list of six families without a school place for next September. They all applied for schools across Dublin and received multiple refusal letters. That there are this many secondary schools without ASD classes is not on.

The proposal is one of putting people in special education centres as opposed to saying that they have to be educated in schools and providing the resources to ensure that happens. It cannot be a case of only getting an ASD class when a new school is built. It is great that there will be a class in every new school, but we are not building schools quickly enough to deal with the situation.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy noted, the draft proposal is an option, not a decision. That is what the Minister of State emphasised to me today. This is very much at an early stage and subject to further engagement. I am glad that some engagement has already happened, with strong views being expressed at the meeting and in public statements. Clearly, further significant work is required to progress this matter.

The key goal is for the constitutional right to education for children with special educational needs to be fulfilled. That must be our guiding objective in all of this, alongside our international obligations under the various UN charters, as the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has reminded me. She is committed to that. A school is not just somewhere to go, but a constitutional right and an international obligation of the State. The Government takes that seriously, as does the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. We will see where this goes. Serious concerns have been expressed, so I want to be clear that no decision has been made.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The next Topical Issue matter is in the name of Deputy Pádraig O’Sullivan.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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May I propose that the fourth Topical Issue matter be heard next? I am taking that as well. I believe I have agreement from the Deputies.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the House.