Dáil debates

Thursday, 24 February 2022

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

 

12:00 pm

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Ar dtús báire, ba mhaith liom a rá go gcáineann Sinn Féin gníomhaíochtaí na Rúise agus iad ag sárú teorann agus ceannas na hÚcráine. Seasann muid le muintir na hÚcráine ag an am iontach deacair seo, agus is cinnte go seasann an Dáil leo fosta.

I begin by expressing on behalf of Sinn Féin our complete opposition to the actions of the Russian Government in its violation of Ukraine's sovereignty and internationally recognised borders. I am sure all of us in this Dáil are united in our condemnation of the latest actions of Russia overnight in initiating a military invasion of Ukraine. I extend our solidarity to the Ukrainian people at this time. This morning, we all witnessed distressing scenes of families fleeing their homes and early reports of casualties. A humanitarian response needs to follow. What work is under way at this early stage by the Department of Foreign Affairs, and by the Government in its capacity as a member of the UN Security Council, to co-ordinate a humanitarian response to affected people and areas?

Significant and severe economic sanctions must follow this latest action and such breaches of international law cannot pass without response. Sanctions need to be targeted not only at the Russian Government but also at the assets of those connected to Putin's state apparatus, many of whom live or hold significant assets in European capitals. We expect the Irish Government will do what it can in this regard. Will the Tánaiste give an update on the tranche of sanctions that are under consideration and those that would be supported by the Government?

Of course, we also have our own responsibilities in this regard. Russia and Putin's inner circle possess large amounts of offshore wealth. The International Financial Services Centre, IFSC, is a major source of finance to the Russian economy, with €118 billion having been funnelled from the centre to Russia between 2005 and 2017, second in Europe only to Luxembourg. Often, this has been through section 110 structures, an issue that has been raised repeatedly by my colleague, Deputy Mairéad Farrell. For example, VB, a Russian state investment company whose supervisory board has been controlled by members of Putin's government, raised €9.3 billion between 2010 and 2013 through a section 110 vehicle here. Will the Government end the use of these section 110 companies, many of which have charitable status, that are being used to channel funds that could be connected with Russia's state apparatus and Putin's inner circle? The Taoiseach is in Brussels, so the Tánaiste might give assurances as to whether this is one of the issues that will be under consideration and discussion later today.

It is inevitable that recent developments will result in further spikes in the cost of energy, and the price of crude oil and gas has already spiked in recent days. Of course, this comes at the worst of times, when people are already under severe financial pressure due to the rising cost of living. I again implore the Tánaiste, therefore, to bring forward further targeted measures to support workers and families, who will bear the brunt of these costs.

To return to the events that are, unfortunately, unfolding in eastern Europe, given our status, position and military neutrality, and our seat on the UN Security Council, Ireland is uniquely placed in Europe and at the UN to make a case for the intensification of efforts to find a peaceful way forward. Will the Tánaiste outline on this very difficult day the next steps in the State's diplomatic response to this crisis?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I want to say on behalf of the Government that today we stand in solidarity with Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. Ireland is militarily neutral, but in this conflict Ireland is not neutral at all. Our support for Ukraine is unwavering and unconditional. At this moment, in a European nation not too far from here, families are leaving their homes, children are being bundled into cars and martial law has been introduced in the face of an unwarranted and unjustified attack. This is an act of aggression, it is unprecedented in the 21st century, and it gives us grim echoes of a much darker past. As President von der Leyen said this morning, President Putin is responsible for bringing war back to Europe. Ireland has much in common with Ukraine. Many people of Ukrainian origin have made their home in Ireland, and they and their families are in our thoughts.

The first wide-ranging package of EU sanctions will come into effect today. This includes an EU travel ban and asset freeze for all 351 members of the Russian Parliament, the Duma, who voted in favour of this violation of international law. There will be an asset freeze and travel ban on senior decision-makers, business figures, military officers and persons involved in leading a disinformation war against Ukraine. An asset freeze will also apply to three private banks and an entity responsible for disinformation. The package also targets the ability of the Russian state and government to access the EU's capital and financial markets and services, and this limits Russia's ability to finance further aggressive policies and actions. The new measures will also target economic relations between the European Union and the two breakaway regions, Donetsk and Luhansk. The European Council will meet later today to finalise further sanctions against Russia and to discuss how to protect the rules-based international order, how to hold Russia to account for its actions and how the EU can provide further support to Ukraine. I want to be very clear that the Government will fully support any additional sanctions against Russia, including those of a financial nature relating to banking and financial services, aviation and any other matters.

As a committed European, in some ways I find it very hard to absorb what has been happening in Ukraine today. The tide of history towards peace, multilateralism, democracy and international co-operation and European integration through the EU has brought more than 70 years of peace to countries within its borders. In a globalised world, aggression and belligerent behaviour always lose in the long run, in my view. Ukraine is a sovereign nation, it has the right to determine its own future and it has been independent for 30 years. It can trace its history back more than 1,000 years. We believe it has as much of a right to exist as any of the other successor nations of the Soviet Union, including Russia itself.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Tánaiste for the response and for the clarity regarding the support of the Government for economic sanctions, including banking sanctions. Will the Government this afternoon put forward an argument for some of these sanctions with its European counterparts? We are learning through media reports that there is disagreement, or at least there was, with some countries looking for carve-outs for diamonds and other luxury goods, banking services, railways and so on. Has the Government a position on this? Given our unique position of being both neutral and having a seat on the UN Security Council, is it the view of the Government that we are best placed to bring forward a resolution for consideration by the Security Council?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Events are happening very quickly, as the Deputy will appreciate, and the Taoiseach, the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and I need to speak today. I think it is fair to say we are all united in our abhorrence of what is happening in Ukraine, and Ireland will not be putting any selfish or economic interests ahead of a response that is required.

We will support whatever sanctions are necessary, including those that would disrupt the banking and financial services that are used by Russians, whether it be in the State or in other states. The same applies to aviation.

I particularly welcome the support of Deputy Pearse Doherty's party on this matter. I remember when I was Taoiseach in 2018 when Russians murdered somebody in England, the Deputy's party leader, Deputy McDonald, being very critical of us for expelling a Russian diplomat at the time. Deputy McDonald said it was a violation of our neutrality for us to expel a Russian diplomat.

(Interruptions).

12:10 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is here, and the Taoiseach raised it previously. I have never said anything about it. For a long time, the Deputy's party has been soft on Russia. As recently as three years ago, Sinn Féin described the expulsion of a Russian diplomat as a violation of our neutrality. I welcome that on this issue Sinn Féin has finally come to its senses and finally realises what Putin is and what the Russian regime is.

Photo of Cian O'CallaghanCian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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This is not a time for political scoring from any side of this House.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Cian O'CallaghanCian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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The world is watching with alarm the shocking events that are unfolding in Ukraine. What we are witnessing is unprecedented in Europe since the Second World War - a full-scale assault and invasion of one state by another. This attack is unprovoked and unjustified and will cause needless death, injury and suffering among the Ukrainian people. As the violence escalates and bombs explode across Ukraine, there is growing panic among the population as they attempt to flee to safety.

Over the past few weeks, Ukrainian citizens living in Ireland have been pleading with the Government to allow them to offer a safe place of shelter for their parents and family members. In most European countries, there is no visa requirement for visitors from Ukraine. This has meant over the past few weeks people have been able to take in their parents and offer them somewhere safe to say to protect them from war. It is no more than any of us would want to do for our parents if they were faced with the same terrifying situation.

What they requested was simple and straightforward. They asked that the Government would waive the visa requirements so that they could take their parents into their homes and provide them with somewhere safe. Irish people living in the Ukraine with family members who are Ukrainian citizens have been unable to get visas for the family members, including for their sons and daughters. This has meant that they have been unable to leave and come home to safety in Ireland. There lives are now being put at very serious risk.

The response from the Government to these pleas for assistance was to say that all visa applications would be dealt with as quickly and humanely as possible but the reality is people have faced significant bureaucratic hurdles making it extremely difficult to obtain a visa. Being asked to surrender your passport to the Irish Consulate for a period of up to ten weeks at a time of war has made the application process virtually impossible. With the country under attack and with martial law declared, it will now be extremely difficult for anyone to leave the country.

I acknowledge the hard work done by the Department of Foreign Affairs in recent weeks in assisting Irish parents whose children were born to surrogate mothers in Ukraine. Consular teams worked through the night to ensure that those families could get home. The same support needs to be given to families seeking to bring their loved ones to safety in Ireland.

I welcome that a waiver of visas for Ukraine citizens has finally been announced by the Taoiseach in the past hour. Regrettably, this announcement has come very late. Is this waiver in place immediately, what practical support will be given to families to help them get their loved ones to safety in Ireland and will Ireland commission more flights from Katowice in Poland?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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My understanding is that waiver is in place as of today. There are a small number of Irish citizens in Ukraine. We need to make sure that they can leave if they choose to do so and we also need to make sure that their families can get out if they need to do so. There is ongoing engagement today involving the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Coveney, and the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, to make whatever arrangements are necessary to enable the family members of Irish citizens to leave Ukraine if they need to do so in the coming period.

Our ambassador and her team are currently in safe locations in Kyiv. The Department of Foreign Affairs will remain in close contact with them in line with its procedures on ensuring the security and safety of embassy personnel.

The Government is closely monitoring the situation in Ukraine with our EU partners and other international partners. In light of recent developments, the Department of Foreign Affairs is now advising all Irish citizens currently in Ukraine to shelter in a secure place. However, citizens should consider leaving Ukraine if they judge it safe to do so depending on their location and prevailing circumstances.

The Department of Foreign Affairs remains in direct contact with Irish citizens in Ukraine who have registered with the embassy. Currently, there are approximately 70 Irish citizens in the country. The safety and security of Irish citizens and their families is our priority.

The capacity of our embassy to provide consular assistance to citizens in the period ahead unfortunately may be extremely limited due to the security situation but the Department will issue regular updates as the situation develops and anyone requiring consular assistance and support can contact the Department of Foreign Affairs headquarters.

Photo of Cian O'CallaghanCian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I asked the Tánaiste specifically about Ukrainian citizens living in Ireland hoping to get their family members here and what assistance would be given to them.

During the pandemic, Ukrainian citizens in Ireland showed up for us. They kept our supermarkets open. They were working in front-line services in healthcare, working as care assistance and working as nurses. They were looking after our family members.

For the past few weeks, they have been trying to look after their family members and get them here to take them into their homes. They have not been assisted in terms of the bureaucratic processes. Will we be giving them practical support now to help them get their loved ones to Ireland? That is specifically what I am asking the Tánaiste.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I agree that we have the benefit of a Ukrainian community here in Ireland who are an important part of our country and have served us well, not only during the pandemic but also before. We are keen to make sure the family members of Ukrainian citizens who have settled here in Ireland are also assisted to leave Ukraine if they need to do so. It will be complicated. We have a very small mission on the ground in Kyiv. Our ambassador and staff are currently in a safe location so what we can do is relatively limited. However, we want to do it. We will make arrangements today to provide whatever practical assistance we can to help the dependants of Ukrainian citizens here in Ireland to make sure that their family members are safe. The Deputy has my commitment in that regard.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I want to raise with the Tánaiste the provision of the Shannon liquefied natural gas, LNG, terminal on the Ballylongford Landbank on the Shannon Estuary. A planning application is being processed at present by An Bord Pleanála. We need this terminal to have energy security into the future. We are leaving ourselves very exposed - given the current situation in Ukraine - importing coal from Russia and Europe importing 30% of its gas from Russia. We see now what this is doing to our fertiliser costs. Wind turbines are fine, but no good when the wind does not blow such as last summer, which was almost totally windless. In Europe, all countries touching the sea have LNG terminals, for example, Portugal, Spain and Holland. Even Malta has an LNG terminal.

The Corrib gas field does not have that much more left. Moneypoint, gladly, is going full belt, but the coal to keep those fires burning is coming from Russia. Where are we with that source now given the conflict between Europe and Russia? Anyway, gas is cleaner than coal.

We have eight gas-burning stations in the country when they are working but we need gas to keep them going. We will need gas for at least 30 or 40 years. We need to have our own terminal so that we have the option of buying gas from other countries, such as the US, which would be inclined to sell it to us.

Now we have the totally reckless act by the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, who, I see, has disappeared, who has made a submission to An Bord Pleanála against the Shannon LNG application. I believe that this is a misuse and abuse of the Minister's powers as he has demeaned the position of Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications. Deputy Eamon Ryan is trying to sabotage one of our options of energy security. I believe that part of the job he is supposed to be doing as Minister is to ensure that we do not run out of electricity. I believe that Deputy Eamon Ryan's objection is ethically and morally wrong and in total contraction of his portfolio. I am calling for an investigation into what the Minister has done.

The Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Patrick O'Donovan, stated on Kerry Radio that he was in favour of Shannon LNG yet the Tánaiste has stated he will not support it, but that he will not block it either.

The Taoiseach has gone back on his work to the people of north Kerry when he promised that he would support Shannon LNG while canvassing with the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley, in the last general election. He has gone with the wind. He believes in wind energy only now.

They closed down Bord na Móna, our own independent energy source, and will not support Shannon LNG. Are they intent on leading us into the dark? It is totally unacceptable to be exposing the country to the lights going off. We have very few options and we do need to get gas from other sources like the United States.

12:20 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The lights are not going to go off. The Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications has signed off on the commissioning and construction of nine new gas plants in Ireland in the coming years. We acknowledge that natural gas is a transition fuel that we are going to need over the next 20 or 30 years while we decarbonise the country and the economy. If the crisis and the war in Ukraine do anything, they expose once again our vulnerability to fossil fuel dependence. Even if there was no climate crisis, we can see now more than ever how vulnerable we are and how dependent we are on oil, gas and coal that does not come from here or even from western Europe;it comes from places like Russia, the Gulf region in the Middle East and South America. It is not right that we as a country should be so dependent on fossil fuels. Even if it was not for the climate crisis, for economic and security reasons, we need to wean ourselves off our dependence on fossil fuels.

As the Deputy said, there is a planning application for an LNG terminal in Tarbert in north Kerry. I am familiar with that project, which is currently at planning permission stage. It is not supported by the Government but if it gets planning permission and if the company that has applied for planning permission is able to fund it, then it will be in a position to build it, but I do not think that is the right investment for that site. This is an area that is close to the mouth of the Shannon Estuary. It is very close to our offshore wind resources in the west, and it is very close to the national grid, which is plugged into Moneypoint and Tarbert. What I would like to see happen there over the next ten years is the development of offshore wind. The wind would be brought ashore and if electricity is needed, it can be plugged into the grid and used to power our homes, factories, farms and businesses and when it is not needed, it can be turned into hydrogen. It can also be turned into fertiliser as well. This is the future. It is using that offshore wind resource for electricity, for hydrogen as a replacement to natural gas and for green and sustainable fertilisers. Those kinds of investments that are potentially happening in north Kerry should not be seen as five- or ten-year investments; they should be seen as a 30-year investment. In my view, the right investment is not LNG; it is LHG, liquid hydrogen gas. That is what we need on that site.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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All those ideals are fine. It is like live horse, and you will get grass. The Tánaiste talked about ten years down the road, but what are we going to do in the meantime? I am in favour of wind turbines in the right place, not near houses. Like everything, there are objections to them, and I support the people who object to wind turbines near their houses, but the wind does not blow all the time and we cannot store the energy that is created by the wind. It is very clear to everyone that since Bord na Móna was closed down by the Government the price of electricity has gone mad. We cannot depend on wind energy for the constant supply of electricity. We cannot depend on Russia for coal and gas and now the Government does not want gas to come in from America or other places. What does it want to do? Is the Government setting us up to leave us without any electricity? When it closed down Bord na Móna, it did not provide us with any other option, only to import gas and coal from Russia. That is what we are doing.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Thankfully, we do not import very much gas at all from Russia. Roughly half our gas supplies come from our own source north of Mayo and the other half comes from the UK, mainly via Qatar and the North Sea. Thankfully, we are not particularly dependent on Russian gas in this country, but obviously if the gas were to stop flowing into eastern Europe, that would have an effect on the price and that is very likely in the period ahead.

I know the site in Tarbert in north Kerry well. At the time, I remember meeting with Hess when it was the developer ten or 15 years ago. Whatever happens in Tarbert, it will be a ten- or 20-year process. It takes time to build a terminal or facility. I honestly do not believe that a natural gas terminal is the right solution for that site. The site should be used for LHG.

What the Deputy said is true. The problem with wind power is it is not dispatchable. The wind blows when the wind blows and that might not be the time when we need the energy. That is the problem with wind; we cannot store it and it is not dispatchable. The good thing is that there is a solution. Because of technological developments, we can now store wind power either in the form of a battery or as hydrogen. Some of the plants in the midlands that the Deputy mentioned will be transformed into battery storage hubs as they move away from peat to battery power. The solution to the problem with wind whereby it cannot be stored or dispatched is hydrogen. When the wind is blowing and we do not have a demand for energy, we can turn that wind energy into hydrogen, a fuel that can be used in the way we use natural gas now. That is the investment that should be happening on that site. That is the future thinking. That is where the jobs are going to be. That is where the economic development is going to be and that is the kind of project I want to support on that site.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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In the meantime, we are exposed.

Photo of Michael McNamaraMichael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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I also wish to discuss the issue of security. Up to now we have lived in a time of unprecedented peace and security in Europe, including energy security and food security. All of that seems to be questionable and questioned now.

I agree with the Tánaiste's vision of bringing offshore energy onto our western shores and storing it in the form of hydrogen because obviously we cannot store energy. I do not know if he has spoken to some of the people involved, but the technology to do it is not there now. Everybody is hopeful, even confident, that it will be there, but it is not there now. There is technology for anchored turbines, but they are primarily suitable for the east coast. Any turbines off the west coast will have to be floating. There is an appropriately named high winds platform off the coast of Scotland, but the technology just is not there for what is proposed off the west coast now.

I share the Tánaiste's optimism. I greatly look forward to when Moneypoint is not burning coal and when vast volumes of wind energy are being turned into hydrogen and stored there. Perhaps we could be self-sufficient in car and vehicle fuel as well, but that is all down the road. Is the Government going to decommission the biggest power station in this country before we have an alternative? That is what it is currently planning.

The Tánaiste mentioned the nine new gas power stations, with one in Northern Ireland and eight here. When they were announced, they were to be built by 2024. Where are they and how are we going to buy the gas that is going to fuel them if gas prices rise? The vast majority of the energy that fuels Germany, the biggest economy in the European Union, comes from Russia.

We mentioned LNG, but I understand that America imports Russian gas. It uses LNG but it also imports gas from Russia. I do not think the Americans are talking about the same level of sanctions that we are. What is the plan for energy security in this State? What is the plan for food security? Ukraine has a population of 40 million and produces enough food to feed 600 million. Obviously, it is expected that there is going to be an interruption in that food production, which will lead to a huge increase in food prices. For millennia, we have always produced enough food in this State to feed the people here, but that does not mean people did not go hungry because they could not afford food. Farmers are facing unprecedented costs. The biggest exporter of fertiliser in the world is Russia while Belarus is a major exporter as well. The biggest exporter of grain in the world is Russia and Ukraine is a major exporter. Both the rising cost of grain and fertiliser will have a knock-on cost for farmers and unless the Government helps with the cost this year, they are going to have to pass it on next year. We are looking at a real possibility of food shortages across western Europe. What, if any, is the Government's plan?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is correct that these are emerging technologies, but they are not that far away. There is enormous confidence that we can do what we want to do off the west coast, which is a floating offshore wind plant plugging into Moneypoint and Tarbert where the grid connection exists and where we can store wind energy in the form of battery power and hydrogen. It is not our intention to close Moneypoint or Tarbert until we are ready to do so.

I do not like the fact we are burning coal in Moneypoint, I do not like the fact we are burning oil in Tarbert, but we do actually need to do so and we may need to do so for many years to come. Those plants will not be decommissioned until we are confident we are able to replace them with secure supply and secure renewables. That might take a bit of time but that is very much the plan.

In regard to food security, I do not believe there are going to be food shortages. I appreciate the Deputy raising the concern but I do not believe that is going to be the case. It is true that both Russia and Ukraine are major exporters of food, particularly of grain, but so are we. I am proud of the fact we live in a country where our farmers and our food industry produce nine times more food than we need. It is all part of an international market. In that context, where we produce nine times more food than we need, we do not need to be concerned about food security or shortages here in Ireland.

Prices may rise, and the Deputy is right about that. Inputs, energy costs, fertiliser - the price of all of those things is soaring, and we know that. I know farmers are telling the Deputy that and they are telling me that too. We will try to help farmers in any way we can but we also need to be realistic. These are international developments. The price of energy is going to rise and that will have a knock-on effect on the price of food and the price of other things. The Government has intervened to help and will continue to intervene to help, but we need to be realistic too. We are still a country that is not balancing the books at the moment. Borrowing the people's money to help them out is ultimately self-defeating, and we have to be cautious as to what we do in that regard.

12:30 pm

Photo of Michael McNamaraMichael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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I welcome the Tánaiste's new-found concern about borrowing the people's money to help them out. To go back to the issue of food security, I never suggested we would have such food shortages in Ireland. I said we would have food shortages in western Europe and that is going to lead to huge price increases in Ireland. Is there a plan for that. What I do not want, in 12 months time, is to see one section of the economy or society pitched against another, with people finding they are being priced out of basic food products and farmers saying they simply cannot produce the food for any less. Prices are rising but we know farmers in Ireland are very much at the mercy of multinationals and they are producing on a very tight margin. That is my concern There is a horrible precedent for Ireland producing a lot of food yet people not having food in Ireland. I want to know the Government is planning for that now to make sure that does not arise and we will not see food produced in Ireland being out of the reach of Irish consumers because of pressures on farmers. It is not that they are profiteering from this; very far from it.

I welcome the reality around Moneypoint.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy makes a very reasonable point around the cost of food. Like him, I do not believe food security or food shortages are going to be a problem, in Ireland anyway. However, if what is happening with energy prices continues and if what is happening in Russia and Ukraine unfolds, then there is a real probability that the price of food will go up here in Ireland and in western Europe. We have benefited from cheap food for a very long time. I think the price of food is going to go up, and the question is how we deal with that. That is going to be about helping farmers with costs, and we will do that, but it is also going to be about incomes policy. There has to be a recognition that if the price of things rises, if the cost of living rises, then incomes are going to have to rise as well. I know that when we wrote the budget back in September, we planned the budget based on the idea that inflation would be somewhere between 2% and 3%. We have to acknowledge that, when it comes to the next budget, we are in a different place and that will have to be reflected in what we do in terms of pensions, the welfare package, personal taxation and incomes policy.