Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Acting Chairman for staying to this hour. I appreciate it. I also thank the Minister for coming in at this hour and giving me the opportunity to discuss this very important matter. Most people will be well aware of the work St. John Ambulance does and the services it provides. We are all used to seeing its presence at a wide range of sporting events including GAA, soccer and rugby games, in the RDS and at various community events. The vast majority of people who are well used to seeing St. John Ambulance personnel will not be aware of the dark history of the organisation or of the dark influences that seem to linger within it. I am speaking of the child and adult sexual abuse carried out over a number of years by senior members of the organisation.

I commend the bravery of three survivors, Mick Finnegan, Paul Mulholland and Martin Hoey, who have spoken out publicly of the horrific sexual abuse they experienced when they were members of the organisation. Mick Finnegan was only 14 or 15 when the abuse started. Some of his testimony is harrowing, distressing and sickening.

Since this independent review into historical child sex abuse within St. John Ambulance began, the leadership of that organisation has effectively refused to take part in this review. It is nine months since the review began and I have been informed that St. John Ambulance has provided no material to Dr. Geoffrey Shannon to aid his review. Mick Finnegan recently met Dr. Shannon and showed him some documents that he had from the St. John Ambulance and this was the first time that Dr. Shannon had seen documentation from the organisation. St. John Ambulance is effectively stonewalling the review process. I have a deep concern that the organisation is closing ranks to protect rapists and sexual abusers who may still be active members of St. John Ambulance.

Every week St. John Ambulance continues to provide medical support to sporting and community events throughout the country. We cannot be passive observers of an organisation with a history of sexual abuse that refuses to comply with a review into that abuse. If St. John Ambulance were serious about this process, it would be more active in engaging with the process. It would be writing to older members, which it has not; it would be putting out public notices, which it has not; and it would be using its social media platforms to look for more information, which it has not.

No real action has been taken against any organisation like St. John Ambulance. We need action. We need the Minister to push it to ensure it engages in a meaningful way because clearly it has not. An organisation that has closed ranks and has not engaged with the review into sexual abuse is providing medical support to sporting and community events every week. I ask the Minister to address this as a matter of urgency to ensure that those who have carried out these horrific sexual abuses are held to account. Those who remain silent in the full knowledge that senior members of St. John Ambulance were doing what they were doing need to be held to account.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter. Reports of historical sexual abuse in St. John Ambulance in the 1990s have been highlighted over recent years. Initially the case concerned three men who made allegations against one named adult. Two of these individuals were under 18 at the time of the abuse.

All three people and the accused were volunteers with St. John Ambulance. A fourth man came forward in November 2020 and a fifth in recent months. It is my understanding that a Garda investigation is under way into all these allegations and also that a number of civil cases are in train. As I am sure the Deputy is aware, the Charities Regulatory Authority, under the aegis of the Department of Rural and Community Development, is Ireland's statutory regulator for charitable organisations, including St. John Ambulance. Neither my Department nor I has any role in the governance of St. John Ambulance.

Nevertheless, my role and that of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in collaboration with Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, is to protect children now. I met the board of St. John Ambulance in late 2020, and I am satisfied that the organisation in its current form is now taking the matter of child protection seriously. The organisation has worked with Tusla to ensure compliance with its obligations under Children First and has accepted the recommendations of Tusla to arrange an independent review of the issues raised.

Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, an internationally recognised expert in child protection, was subsequently commissioned by the board of St. John Ambulance in March 2021 to conduct an independent review into the handling of historical child sexual abuse within St. John Ambulance. Dr. Shannon is a leading authority on child protection and child and family law. During three successive terms as special rapporteur for child protection, he produced 12 annual reports as well as a range of reports on matters relating to child protection.

The terms of reference of the review, as fully agreed by Dr. Shannon, set out that he will examine how St. John Ambulance handled past allegations of child sexual abuse relating to the individual in question and any other allegations made. The review is also tasked with examining the current standard of child safeguarding at the organisation.

I understand that given the sensitive nature of this review, Dr. Shannon believes in-person interviews are the best way to proceed. Covid restrictions have led to some initial delays in those interviews taking place, but it is the preferred method. Nevertheless, if in-person interviews cannot be facilitated, arrangements will be made for secure remote meetings between survivors and him. I also understand significant progress has been made in commencing these interviews.

I have personally met one of the individuals who has come forward on a number of occasions. I commend them and all others who, sometimes at real personal cost to themselves, have had the courage to share the horrific experiences that occurred to them in their youth. I encourage them and anyone with any knowledge of issues within St. John Ambulance to come forward and speak to Dr. Shannon. He has provided a dedicated website for people to get in touch and it can be accessed at stjohnambulancereview.ie.

While the findings will initially be presented to the board of St. John Ambulance, it is my expectation that St. John Ambulance will ensure publication of the review report and I will be looking for this to happen.

It is important to give Dr. Shannon the opportunity to undertake this review and go through the various steps. He is a person of the highest credibility nationally and internationally and it is important to give him the opportunity to do this work.

Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I know the Minister is absolutely on the survivors' side; that is not in question. The difficulty is that Dr. Shannon has had no contact from St. John Ambulance. Its representatives talk about engaging in the process but they do not actually do it. If organisations with a clear history of sexual abuse refuse to co-operate with reviews and investigations into these crimes, we need more than speeches and words; we need action with sanctions imposed. We need firm action to force their hand to engage with the relevant reviews and investigations. While not directly, St. John Ambulance is receiving thousands of euro of State money every year through various sporting national governing bodies and community groups to which the State provides funds. It does not sit well with me to know that State funds are ending up in an organisation that has closed ranks in the face of a review into sex abuse.

It is deeply concerning that some of those in senior leadership positions in St. John Ambulance knew of these abuses when they were being committed. Even more disturbingly, at that time these same people made jokes and even had songs about these horrific crimes of abuse being carried out. This culture of tolerance of abuse needs to be rooted out. Survivors of sexual abuse should not have to face such barriers in their pursuit of justice. The State should be providing these survivors with the support and resources they need to get that justice. I call on the Minister to take decisive action if St. John Ambulance continues to stonewall this review into child sex abuse. I go so far as to ask him to instruct sporting and community groups to withdraw from using St. John Ambulance at events until this review is carried out in the correct manner. I also appeal directly to sports organisations not to use St. John Ambulance at events they are holding until there is compliance with this review.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I want the record to be clear. My Department provides no funding to St. John Ambulance as a youth organisation.

I met a survivor who explained his experience. I subsequently met the board of St. John Ambulance to discuss both its current child protection procedures, which Tusla has assured me are in compliance with Children First, and a review of the historical cases. I encouraged and put pressure on the board members to undertake that independent review of historical practices. That independent review is now taking place. I subsequently engaged with them to ensure that is properly publicised, recognising that St. John Ambulance is an organisation that has been in existence for a long time.

Many people have passed through it. Since that, there has been better publication of it on its social media, Twitter and Facebook. I have also published a number of press releases from my Department speaking about this review and encouraging people to participate and to come forward. Through other sources, other complainants or other questions about St. John Ambulance have been made known to me. I have made sure to put them through to the right connections to get in touch with Professor Geoffrey Shannon.

I have absolutely confidence in Geoffrey Shannon to get to the bottom of this. I also think that if he believes he is not getting the co-operation he needs, he will say that. He will not allow himself to be messed around by any organisation. He is far too experienced. If we get to a situation where this organisation is not co-operating, this will be called out. We have to give the person who is an expert in undertaking these sorts of investigations the discretion to undertake the work he is doing. This is a detailed piece of analysis, talking to people some who as we know have been deeply impacted. These are not phonecalls and it is right that these take place properly. I have confidence in Geoffrey Shannon, but if he comes to me or to my Department and says there is a real problem, I will be happy to engage on that point.