Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his dialogue and meetings with faith leaders. [43328/20]

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagement with faith leaders. [13193/21]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 and 6 together.

As part of ongoing dialogue with churches, faith groups and non-confessional bodies, I have met with faith leaders on a number of occasions since my appointment as Taoiseach. On 28 October 2020, I met with representatives of the Catholic Church, Archbishop Eamon Martin, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin, Archbishop Michael Neary, Archbishop Kieran O’Reilly and Bishop Dermot Farrell. Discussion focused mainly on the effect which the Covid-19 restrictions have on the health and well-being of the faith community and the great desire to return to worship as soon as possible.

On 17 November 2020, I met with representatives of churches, faith groups and non-confessional bodies, including the Church of Ireland, the Catholic Church, the Hindu community, the Humanist Association of Ireland, the Irish Buddhist Union, the evangelical community, the Irish Council of Churches, the Islamic community, the Jewish community, the Methodist Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, and the Presbyterian Church. The discussion focused again mainly on the impact of level 5 restrictions and the importance of public worship, particularly at this time, with high levels of anxiety and loneliness within communities. Participants requested that consideration be given to allowing places of worship to open for congregational prayer at level 3 of the framework, stressing that the practice of public worship is paramount to all faith communities and particularly for some during Advent and Christmas.

On 23 November 2020, senior officials from my Department held a further meeting with representatives of churches, faith groups and non-confessional bodies. As Deputies are aware, since these meetings, places of worship reopened for public worship from 1 to 26 December when, due to the increased spread of the virus in the community, it became necessary to move the country to level 5 restrictions. As a result, religious services moved online and places of worship remain open for private prayer only.

On 19 February last, I again met with representatives of the Catholic Church, Archbishop Eamon Martin, the newly-appointed Archbishop Dermot Farrell, Archbishop Kieran O’Reilly and Archbishop Michael Neary, to discuss the current level of Covid-19 restrictions and the church's desire to return to worship, in particular, during the season of Lent with the approach of Holy Week and Easter. Recognising the huge challenge which the pandemic poses, the archbishops emphasised that they wished to continue supporting the public health message and to encourage all necessary measures, including vaccination, to protect health and well-being, especially of the most vulnerable. They shared their concern that life at present is particularly stressful and difficult for people to endure, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. Recognising the spiritual comfort and hope that participation in public worship brings, the archbishops asked that public worship resume when an easing of restrictions is considered. They expressed a strong desire that people gather safely this year for the important ceremonies of Holy Week and Easter. They also requested consideration of an increase in the number of the bereaved who may attend funeral Masses. I thanked the archbishops for their support and acknowledged the importance of the church community and people’s lives at this time of stress and worry. I outlined the ongoing concerns regarding the spread of the virus, particularly the new variant, stressing that any increase in mobility can have serious consequences for public health and put pressure on the health service. We agreed to maintain dialogue as the situation evolves.

On 25 February, senior officials from my Department held a further meeting with representatives of churches, faith groups and non-confessional bodies to discuss Covid-19 restrictions and related matters. The Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference in a statement yesterday expressed its disappointment in not receiving a response with regard to the easing of restrictions on the numbers at funerals. As I have said at meetings with the archbishops, unfortunately, due to the serious nature of the pandemic, it is not possible to give guarantees of future levels of restrictions. However, next steps will be clarified in the lead-up to 5 April.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The death of a family member is one of the most raw and emotional times anybody will experience. Funerals are very difficult at any time but during Covid-19, for many, they have been a complete disaster. At the moment, attendance at funerals can be a lottery for family members. We have reports from around the country of local priests refusing access to a church to family members on the death of their loved ones. This is having a devastating effect on families. It is well-known psychologically that the grieving process is very important and if it does not happen at the right time, those issues can remain with people for the rest of their lives. The strange thing about this is that in most towns the church is the biggest building. Ten people would be lost in most churches. People are being refused access to a church for a funeral but can go across to the local Aldi or another retail outlet and queue up for crisps and wine, along with 12, 13 or 14 other people. That does not make sense.

I understand it is not an easy job for the Taoiseach to balance all of the rights in this regard. However, Ireland is an outlier in how restrictive it is regarding religious and funeral services. Only two other countries are as restrictive as Ireland is on funerals. Will the Taoiseach consider allowing churches to open for religious services on Easter Sunday? The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that the practice of religion is a human right. Even for people without a faith, the importance of faith is very obvious on a human rights basis alone.

In recent days, faith leaders have said they were disappointed with the absence of return to them, via the Taoiseach, on the issues they have raised.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Sisters of Charity have been again implicated in really quite shameful practices, in terms of the revelations about illegal adoptions and their involvement in St. Patrick's Guild. The order has also been implicated in the mother and baby home scandal but, incredibly, this same religious order will be running the National Maternity Hospital, against a background where Archbishop Diarmuid Martin said last May that under no circumstances, regardless of the outcome of the transfer to the St. Vincent's Holdings group, which is controlled by the Sisters of Charity, was there a place for abortions in hospitals run by the Catholic Church. This is extraordinary stuff. There are visually impaired and disabled residents near the campus of St. Vincent's Hospital in St. Mary's Telford, who themselves went through mother and baby homes and who are now being evicted by the Sisters of Charity. Elderly women who are blind are being evicted by the Sisters of Charity. This is a publicly funded critical part of the national health service but run by a religious order that is unaccountable to anybody and has behaved in these ways. Does the Taoiseach raise these issues? Is it not way past time that our hospitals and the assets these religious orders own are taken back into public ownership?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What conversation did the Taoiseach have with faith leaders prior to and following the publication of the commission's report into mother and baby homes? What conversations has the Taoiseach had with them in respect of the whole scenario around adoptions, including illegal adoptions and the role of various churches and religious orders in all of this? In the previous round, I put a question to the Taoiseach on whether Boris Johnson gave him prior notice of his intention to tear ahead and act unilaterally. Will the Taoiseach clarify whether he was in receipt of that information?

Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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With regard to the Taoiseach's dialogue with religious and faith leaders, has he raised issues regarding illegal adoptions and the potential transfer of the National Maternity Hospital to a trust set up by one of the religious orders that reflects their ethos and values? Will the Taoiseach be looking at that again?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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To respond to Deputy Tóibín, I fully accept that one of the saddest parts of the global pandemic and the impact on society has been the inability of families to grieve, in the way we do in Ireland, their lost ones who have passed away. This has been a terrible loss to those bereaved. That so few can attend a funeral is a further traumatic blow to the families. They do their best in the circumstances to remember their loved ones.

The public health advice has been clear on this. I would say to the Deputy that it is not what happens within the church that is the problem, or attendance at the mass, it is what happened afterwards that has been a problem. There have been well-documented cases of significant spread of the disease at events after funerals in various locations throughout the country. The difficulty is always where does one draw the line. Believe me, I have exercised on this on quite a number of occasions. We took decisions to increase numbers before Christmas at the end of the November restrictions. It is very difficult. We will be guided by public health advice on this aspect.

The variant is something I feel people do not quite get all the time. The variant creates a different situation in terms of the spread of the disease right now in this phase. We need to keep this foremost in our minds. It is not like the second wave or the first wave. The B117 variant spreads much more rapidly than original iterations of the virus. This is what is informing a very conservative and cautious approach to what is allowed and what is not allowed and the restrictions that have been put in place. It still remains a concern. The number in hospital at present is 357 people. This is still higher than at the peak of the second wave. Likewise, the numbers in ICU are very high. If we let the guard down too quickly and this variant gets control again, it will spread very rapidly.

We did say we would engage. I made clear the challenges and difficulties. Today is 10 March. In the week leading into 5 April, we will review the situation. We will take advice from public health and we will then advise on what we believe is the best way forward for the following six weeks after that.

To respond to Deputies Boyd Barrett and McDonald, these meetings were not about any issue other than the Covid-19 restrictions. All of the meetings I have had were in this context. We have written to the religious orders saying they should make a contribution to any redress scheme developed by the Government, which we hope to have ready, or the work of the interdepartmental committee ready, at the end of April. The information and tracing Bill will be published by the Minister and he is making solid progress on what will be comprehensive legislation in terms of access to one's identity and information.

As for hospitals, I am of the view that hospitals which are predominantly or overwhelmingly funded by the State should be in State ownership. That is my view. The State now essentially supports these hospitals in all manner and means through current and capital funding. In respect of the Sisters of Charity, again that should not be happening. I would have thought that whatever arrangements were being made that elderly blind women would be looked after and protected because that would be the Christian thing to do. I will have to come back to the Deputy on that. With regard to the National Maternity Hospital, my view is the ownership, control and ethos of it has to be informed by State and Government policy.

In respect of Boris Johnson, I did not get advance notice from him in respect of the decision on the extension of the dates pertaining to the protocol, but the following day we got some indication that this was afoot. It is a silly approach to dealing with the issue and it is wrong. Unilateral approaches do not work. We have been making these points repeatedly to the UK side. An approach is being adopted that I do not think is beneficial in the long term with regard to constructive UK-EU relationships.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the final few points could be responded to in writing.