Dáil debates

Thursday, 3 December 2020

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Abortion Services Provision

6:00 pm

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The next matter was tabled in the names of Deputy Mattie McGrath, Nolan, Michael Healy-Rae, Canney, Grealish, Michael Collins, O'Donoghue, Tóibín and Fitzpatrick. As far as I can ascertain, only five of those Deputies are in the Chamber. With their co-operation, I will try to accommodate each of them.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing this very important issue to be raised and I apologise on behalf of the Deputies who are not present . Some, including Deputy Fitzpatrick, pulled out to give us more time.

The reactions of doctors who carry out late-term abortions in Ireland make for grim reading. One doctor described the carrying out of foeticide as "stabbing the baby in the heart". Others said it is brutal and awful, while one revealed: "I remember getting sick out in the corridors afterwards because I thought it [foeticide] was such an awful procedure and so dreadful." Many of us Deputies on the pro-life side tried hard at meetings of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution in 2018. We put forward amendments to ensure that pain relief would be administered. The then Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, was dismissive and ignored all our appeals. He told us it could not happen but we knew from international experience that it would happen, and it is happening. It is a shocking situation in our country and something has to be done about it. It is just not acceptable. It is unspeakable.

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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We were all given assurances that there would not be an issue with aborted babies being born alive. We raised that issue in the Chamber and asked what would be done in that instance. We were dismissed, yet evidence and facts are now coming to light from GPs and other types of doctors. What is the Government going to do about this? It is shameful that the Minister for Health is not present.

There is conflict among doctors regarding the diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality and in respect of palliative care for aborted babies born alive. What action is the Government going to take? We will not allow this to be swept under the carpet. It is barbaric and shameful.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I add my support in respect of this matter. The report is very frightening. The onus is on the Government and the Minister for Health to ensure that this report is examined. It is an independent report and it has not been commissioned by any particular group. The findings are horrific. I will not spell out the wording but there seem to be a significant number of anomalies in respect of the provision of pain relief and palliative care for aborted babies who are born alive. We really need to examine the matter and to ensure that our children are treated with dignity.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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An unborn child is a living individual human being. He or she is as human as the Minister of State, as alive as him and as individual as him, and that is according to science. Under the Government, however, late-term abortions are being carried out on unborn children and pain relief is not being used.

On any level, humanitarian basis and understanding of society, how can the Minister of State stand by this? When we put amendments to the Bill when it was rushed through in 2018, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Sinn Féin voted against amendments to ensure that pain relief was included in this regime. I put a question to the Fianna Fáil Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, only a week ago asking him to ensure that pain relief would be afforded to children when they are being aborted in this country. Deputy Stephen Donnelly, the Fianna Fáil Minister for Health, refused.

6:10 pm

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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The people of Ireland voted for abortion a couple of years ago but no one ever thought that there would be 6,666 abortions in 12 months. I met so many people who voted for it who are stunned by this. It is what it is.

The discussion today is about late-term abortions. It is about what a new study tells us about late-term abortions and babies born alive after abortion in Ireland.

A study, from UCC, recording the experience of ten foetal medicine specialists providing abortions for foetal anomalies in Irish maternity hospitals was published in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology. The reaction of the doctors who are carrying out these late-term abortions in Ireland make for grim reading. One doctor described carrying out infanticide as "stabbing the baby in the heart". Others said it was "brutal" and "awful", and one revealed that "I remember getting sick out in the corridors afterwards because I thought it [the foeticide] was such an awful procedure and so dreadful".

We were assured that this would never happen and it is happening. It is wrong. It is a terrible, terrible wrong. We would like complete clarity on this from the Minister of State.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, is aware of the research article to which the Deputies refer on foetal medicine specialists' experience in providing a new service of termination of pregnancy for fatal foetal anomaly. The research article to which the Deputies refer reports on interviews carried out with ten foetal medical specialists in Ireland.

Foetal medicine focuses on the management of high-risk pregnancies and includes the assessment of foetal growth and the diagnosis of foetal illness and abnormality. The Minister is advised that in certain circumstances it may be necessary to perform specialised diagnostic tests on a foetus, for example, amniocentesis to check for certain chromosomal or genetic conditions of the foetus. Such diagnostic tests may be recommended, for example, if an earlier screening test or scan suggested that there may be an anomaly within the foetus.

Regrettably, at times these diagnostic tests identify conditions that have no known cure. Where a test shows that the foetus has a genetic or chromosomal abnormality, the healthcare team provides information to the woman concerned and discusses the options that are available either to continue or end the pregnancy.

The Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018 sets out the parameters in which the termination of pregnancy may be lawfully carried out in this country. The Act permits termination to be carried out in cases where there is a risk to the life or of serious harm to the health of the pregnant woman, where there is a condition present which is likely to lead to the death of the foetus, and without restriction up to 12 weeks of pregnancy.

Section 11 sets out the laws on access of termination of pregnancies in cases where there is a condition present affecting the foetus and that is likely to lead to the death of the foetus before or within 28 days of birth. It requires the involvement of two medical practitioners. One must be an obstetrician and the other a medical practitioner of a specialty relevant to the diagnosis, care or treatment of the condition affecting the foetus. Both medical practitioners must certify their reasonable opinion formed in good faith before the termination of pregnancy can be carried out. It is essential that we are clear on the purpose of the legislation. It is to set out the law governing access to termination of pregnancy in Ireland. It is not to dictate the practice of obstetrics or of medicine more generally.

Medical practitioners are always required to maintain professional standards and to uphold medical ethics. They are bound, through professional regulatory mechanisms, to deliver medical services in accordance with the best medical practice.

The operation of section 11 of the Act is supported by clinical guidelines developed by the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. The implementation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018 has put in place a comprehensive termination of pregnancy service in Ireland. It allows us to look after women experiencing crisis pregnancies in this country rather than forcing them to travel abroad for care, as we have done in the past.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing us this important Topical Issue debate. It is a shame that the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, is not here. I met the Ministers of State, Deputies Butler and Rabbitte, wandering around downstairs. None of them would come in to answer it.

This is shocking. What we want is a ban on late-term abortions, mandated care for any baby born after an induction, and pain relief for babies being aborted. That is a basic human requirement.

It is barbaric, shocking and unbelievable what is going on. I intend, with my colleagues here, to bring forward an amendment to this barbaric legislation. We warned about it. We railed about it. We were dismissed that we were nobodies. This happened all over the world and now it is happening on our shore. It is hard to believe it. It is barbaric.

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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It is disappointing to hear, from his scripted response, the Minister of State has not dealt with anything we raised here. We raised issues such as babies being born alive without palliative care, conflict among doctors, and the issue of no pain relief being given even though the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 allows veterinaries to prescribe pain relief. This is going unnoticed. The Minister of State is almost justifying it with that sort of response. It is barbaric.

At the end of the day, this Government is responsible. Most of its members are back again. The Government is responsible for this and it needs to deal with this issue because it will not go away.

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing this Topical Issue debate. The Minister of State says the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, is aware. Is the Minister aware of what is happening, because if he is, the Minister of State has not got a proper response here? This is a very important issue.

Babies are being born alive and there is no pain relief being administered to them. The Minister of State did not answer that question here. I would support any amendment that would help babies who are born alive and help them through it.

We warned that this would happen and it is happening. Sadly, no one listened to us at that time and now we have been proven right.

Photo of Seán CanneySeán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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The response is an official response but it has dodged the questions. Quite simply, this is not something that should be treated as passing the responsibility to somebody else. We are legislators. We need to look at this.

I would ask the Minister to look at the report that was done. It was nothing other than a report and an interview with the people who were carrying out these procedures. I would ask the Minister of State to bring this back to the Minister for Health. I know well he will. I respect that, but I must say that the answer here is disappointing.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The Minister of State is reading a script but he has an individual responsibility over what he says in this Chamber and what is happening. The hundreds of words that he spoke add up to nothing. They mean business as usual. It means that a boy or girl who survives abortion, who is a citizen of this country at this stage, is allowed to expire, potentially, with no palliative care whatsoever or no effort to protect his or her life. For the Minister of State to come in and give that complete non-answer to such a shocking humanitarian situation in this country is so hard to listen to.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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In concluding the debate on the issues raised by the Deputies, I would like to clarify again, on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, that to provide a termination of pregnancy under section 11 of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018, two medical practitioners must have previously certified the reasonable opinion formed in good faith that the foetus concerned is likely to die either before or within 28 days. It is essential that we have in place a medically delivered safe and regulated service for the termination of pregnancy for all those who require it if they find themselves in this unimaginably difficult position.

In line with the will of the people, the implementation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018 allows us to provide women experiencing crisis pregnancy with access to a full range of services in this country. However, we must be very clear about the purpose of the legislation, which is to set out the laws governing access to termination of pregnancy in Ireland. Its purpose is not to dictate the practice of obstetrics. It is vital that our healthcare providers are assured that they can be confident in the decisions they are helping their patients to make and in providing the care those patients require.

I listened to the sensitive questions Deputies have raised and, unfortunately, I do not have answers for them. I will take those questions back to the Minister and the Department and try to get a written response in the coming days. I will do whatever I can to get the Minister and the Department to respond to the Deputies on the points raised.