Dáil debates

Tuesday, 22 January 2019

Ceisteanna - Questions

Cabinet Committee Meetings

4:00 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee G, justice and equality, last met; and when it will next meet. [53037/18]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee G, justice and equality, last met, and when it will next meet. [1704/19]

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee G, justice and equality, last met; and when it is scheduled to meet again. [1706/19]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

There were three meetings of Cabinet committee G in 2018, that is, on 18 January and 16 April and, most recently, on 12 December. The next meeting of the committee has not yet been scheduled.

Cabinet committee G provides political oversight of developments in relation to justice and equality issues, including implementation of the Government's programme of reform for the justice sector.

In relation to justice reform, the effectiveness and renewal group is due to publish its third report shortly. This will feed into the committee's work.

Last month, the Government approved A Policing Service for the Future, its four-year plan to implement the recommendations of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland chaired by Ms Kathleen O'Toole.

Cabinet committee G is part of the oversight architecture of the plan and will receive regular progress reports on its implementation. The plan also envisages two meetings per year of Cabinet committee G focusing on community safety in particular.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Has the Cabinet committee discussed the implementation of the new legislation on drink-driving? Despite what has gone on previously, I will venture into that area.

Does the Taoiseach agree with the view expressed by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, in writing in one of the national newspapers last weekend that Ministers who criticised the drink-driving legislation enacted by this House are not fit for office?

An interim report published last week found that An Garda Síochána failed to prosecute 3,500 children in respect of almost 8,000 crimes under investigation over a period of seven years. Some 3,400 victims were impacted by the crimes. I am sure that this shocking development must have been discussed by the Cabinet committee. What was its reaction to the issues highlighted in the report?

What progress has been made on the implementation of the 157 key recommendations currently under the purview of the Policing Authority? Is it normal for the chair of the Policing Authority to attend the Cabinet committee for discussion of these matters?

4:10 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I too wish to raise the issue which emerged last week of the almost 8,000 criminal offences - 7,894 to be precise - committed by 3,489 child suspects between the years of 2010 and 2017 which were not progressed because of Garda inaction. There was a failure to progress 37 cases involving a particular child as well as 2,500 cases in which there were multiple offences. Some 55 of the offences identified were deemed to be of a serious nature, including a case of rape, another of sexual assault and another of child neglect. These are shocking revelations. It is scandalous that a person went to the Garda about a serious crime such as a rape or violent assault and nothing was done.

I do not doubt that there were systems failures which the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, must urgently address. Those responsible must be held to account. We must consider the chronic under-resourcing of the Garda and the consequences of its not having the tools to perform the functions expected of it. From the outside looking in, at least, the PULSE network appears antiquated and not fit for purpose.

Above all, it is very concerning that this might not be the end of the matter. The chairperson of the Policing Authority indicated that there might be additional issues, stating, "It must at least be an open question as to whether similar behaviours, and therefore similar lapsed cases and similar opportunities to reoffend, have occurred in relation to adult offenders." Is that the case?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There has been ongoing discussion in the House of policing reform for several years, in particular over the past 12 months. The Taoiseach may recall there was a specific focus last year on the Department of Justice and Equality and the necessity of its reform. He will remember that in December 2017 he stated on several occasions that the Department was not fit for purpose and that it needed a new structure and a new culture. Several internal changes have since been made at senior management level, including the recruitment of a second deputy secretary general. Is the Taoiseach satisfied that the Department is fit for purpose? Has enough been done to ensure that the culture which he strongly criticised has changed?

On the car bomb in Derry last Saturday night, it was pure chance that a group of teenagers which passed the car was not caught by the blast. I ask the Taoiseach to indicate the security assessment regarding the potential of the organisations suspected of involvement and the degree of co-operation between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána in regard to the organisations' activities.

On the Garda Commissioner's announcement last week regarding thousands of offences by young offenders not being prosecuted, I ask that a detailed report on the issue be presented to the Oireachtas by the Minister for Justice and Equality. To a certain extent, the announcement came out of the blue. There was no advance indication that something of that nature or scale was developing. Notwithstanding the McCabe dossier, the penalty points saga and so on, the Policing Authority described this as the most serious issue to have come before it. In light of the scale and nature of the failure and what precisely it involves, there is a need and an obligation for a full report on the matter to be presented to the Oireachtas.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Many communities have been bedevilled by serious anti-social behaviour and very irresponsible and dangerous driving by young people. These are among the most difficult of issues with which communities must deal and particularly give rise to fears among older people as well as greatly affecting community building. Many community members and residents' associations struggled to understand why so many of the young people involved in such activities were not dealt with. The information about what was happening seemed to go into a black hole. I know many juvenile liaison officers who have been extremely assiduous in helping young people who get into difficulty with the law and may be going down a path which would end very badly for them and their families.

I welcome the investigation by the Policing Authority and the comments of the Commissioner but this issue leads me to again query the Government decision recently announced by the Taoiseach effectively to dissolve the independence of the Policing Authority, the establishment of which was eventually agreed to by the Fine Gael Party when it was in government with the Labour Party. The Fine Gael Party was not a great fan of the Policing Authority but I do not know the Taoiseach's personal views on it.

Communities feeling safe and young people who get into trouble with the law being properly dealt with are fundamental to our policing system. However, the Government is considering dissolving the authority which has produced a public report on this extremely important issue. I do not know whether the Taoiseach had sight of the report before the Opposition became aware of it through the media. Does he think he should reconsider the indications he gave some weeks ago regarding policing reform and recognise that an independent Policing Authority is critical to the safety of our citizens and the work of the Garda?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach has four minutes to respond.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Cabinet committee has not discussed the implementation of the new drink-driving laws. It is important to remind the House that alcohol limits have not changed, although some people believe that they have. Rather, the penalties have changed. Although the legislation was piloted through the Houses by the Minister, Deputy Ross, it is not his legislation but, rather, legislation that was approved by Government and enacted by the Oireachtas.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Does the Taoiseach agree with what Deputy Ross stated regarding the Ministers who criticised the legislation?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am 37 seconds into my response and I am already being interrupted. I will try to answer as many questions as possible.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies should give the Taoiseach an opportunity to respond.

4:20 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I will try to answer as many questions as I can-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach should be allowed to continue without interruption.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----but the number of interruptions makes it harder to answer.

The legislation was adopted by the Oireachtas. The vast majority of Members of this House and the Seanad voted for it. The Government supports the Garda in enforcing the law. If we do not want it to enforce the laws, we should not pass them in this House. The Garda has my full support in enforcing the law.

I do not believe that any Minister currently serving in government is unfit for office. If I did feel that, I would dismiss him or her.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I do not agree.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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But the Taoiseach is reviewing them-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach must be allowed to continue without interruption.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I was asked about the practice of the chair of the Policing Authority attending Cabinet subcommittees. That has not happened, to my recollection, unless I am totally mistaken.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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She did in the past.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Not recently anyway.

With regard to the crimes whose perpetrators were not prosecuted, along with everyone in the House I am very dissatisfied that thousands of crimes committed by young offenders did not result in prosecution. I really feel for the victims, who have not got justice. They went to the Garda, reported an offence - serious in some cases - and assumed it would be dealt with but it was not. In many cases, those offences are beyond the period specified in the Statute of Limitations so they cannot now be prosecuted, but in some cases they still can. It is really important that this now happens. In some cases, while the offenders might not have been prosecuted for the crimes in question, they were prosecuted for others and were subject to justice in that regard. We need to make sure changes are made so the problem does not arise again. Many changes have been made. The essential flaw was that young offenders considered to be appropriate for juvenile diversion rather than prosecution were referred for neither prosecution nor juvenile diversion. That should not reflect badly in any way on the juvenile justice programme or the juvenile diversion programme. The programme works very well and has been very successful but obviously is not capable of taking all offenders, particularly those guilty of the most serious offences.

Garda resources are improving all the time. The number of gardaí has now increased to 14,000, which is the highest in a very long time. The number will continue to increase, as will the number of civilians in the force. We have set aside a very substantial budget for investment in IT, vehicles and equipment over the next couple of years.

The reforms in the Garda and the Department of Justice and Equality are still very much under way. It is a work in progress. The reforms are very much under way in the Department of Justice and Equality in terms of restructuring, bringing individuals in from outside and refreshing the management team. The programme for the reform of the Garda is a four-year programme and is only getting started but I am satisfied that it is happening and that things are going in the right direction. We now have a real opportunity. We have new leadership in the Garda. There is a much better budget and a reform plan such that we can now make the changes that perhaps should have happened a long time ago.

With regard to the events in Derry, once again I condemn in no uncertain terms the car bomb and the subsequent violence. It is not wanted in Derry. I have been to that city many times in the past year or two and know its good people do not want to see this kind of violence back on their streets. We are blessed that no life was lost as a consequence of the events. We have rejected political violence as a people on countless occasions in the past decade and we still reject it today. There is very good co-operation between the PSNI and Garda Síochána on dealing with republican groups hell-bent on violence.