Dáil debates

Tuesday, 18 September 2018

Future of the Post Office Network: Motion

 

7:50 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Private Members' business is a motion on the future of the post office network. I note, given some of the events of the day, that many of the personnel from our Whips' offices must have decamped to the ploughing championships because they are certainly not paying much attention to what is going on here.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is shocking.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are delighted to have Deputy Stanley.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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I am delighted to be here even though the ploughing is happening down on my own patch.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is dedication.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Plough ahead.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

recognises that:— the recent announced closure of 159 post offices across the State will have a devastating effect on many rural communities;

— post offices form a vital part of communities, and have suffered long-term neglect by successive Governments, with hundreds of closures since 2000;

— successive Governments have allowed the post office network to decline and have not allowed alternative services to be established and expanded;

— postmasters and postmistresses are entitled to accept retirement packages, however, the criteria used by An Post in such instances, to retain post offices and advertise a new contract, are flawed; and

— A Programme for a Partnership Government commits to protecting the postal network; andcalls on the Government to:— prevent the closure of 159 post offices across the State by advertising new contracts, offering alternative services and allowing the potential for co-location of post offices;

— reinvigorate the network of post offices by extending the services which post offices provide, and by retaining existing services such as social welfare payments;

— implement proposals contained in the Final Report of the Post Office Network Business Development Group (Kerr Report) from 2016 which included post offices providing alternative services such as financial services and Government services before closing post offices; and

— commit to a new model of community banking through the post office network.

This is important because it is about rural Ireland and the future of services in rural Ireland. Today, we had representatives of postmasters protesting outside this building about this important issue. We should not see the post office as something just to have in the community but rather something that is needed in a community. It can be if we have sufficient Government action. We need to see the post office in the community, as part of it, providing important services for the benefit of local people. It can be with long-term vision where additional services are provided.

A previous motion was passed two years ago, which was moved by the Rural Independent Group, but little or no action was taken. There was a lack of follow-up on the Kerr report from 2016 and an Oireachtas committee report from 2013. The progress made has been a little like a slow bicycle race. These all stressed the need for additional services to be provided through our post office network, which is key. Instead, successive Governments have allowed it to limp along.

Previous Governments viewed the post office network as a burden. From 2000 to 2010, under a previous Government, 732 post offices closed their doors. There have been Garda station closures and 542,000 households are still waiting for high-speed broadband. This is the situation in rural Ireland. Post office masters and mistresses are entitled to retire, but this does not mean the post office has to retire or cease operation. We need a long-term vision and interest in the service from the Government when it comes to rural Ireland. Some 390 post office masters and mistresses were offered exit packages recently and not offered new contracts. Of those, 159 post masters and mistresses are retiring, and have the right to do so. The remaining 231 were not offered new contracts due to falling incomes.

We need to address the criteria used by An Post to define a settlement, which are that there must be 500 or more people. Many of these villages have up to 600 or 700 people living on the outskirts. I can name plenty of them. It does not take into account the true population in the rural area. We have a dispersed population and clusters of houses on the outskirts of villages and small towns. We have one of the most dispersed populations in Europe. Everyone will have examples in their constituencies where they know the true population is not reflected. Much has been made of there being one within 15 km and nobody having to travel more than 15 km.

For someone on a pension of €220 a week, that could mean the first €30 or €35 could be gone on a taxi fare to get to the nearest post office to collect the pension.

Co-location is another important issue. It is something I have supported from the outset, although I accept that others have opposed it at various times. Sinn Féin believes co-location is a real option, but it is not being considered or sufficiently promoted. The Government and An Post need to support co-location. There are many places where a post office could easily be combined with a local shop or other business, thus giving an additional income and providing for the continuation of postal services, as well as new services. We need additional services, including Government services such as motor tax renewal. Having a State service in the community will benefit and contribute to communities.

Given that banks have withdrawn from rural Ireland, we must consider the introduction of community banking. There was a commitment in that regard in the programme for Government, specifically for the German Sparkasse model. In Germany there are 390 individual local authority owned banks. Another option is the New Zealand Kiwibank model which now has a 20% share of the banking market and 25% of all bank customers in that country.

The post office is the last remaining service in many areas. Communities need services in order to stay alive. In addition to a postal network, communities also need broadband and rural transport services, which many areas do not have. Rural areas will become barren places if post office services are stripped from communities. I ask the Government to recognise that in many cases the post office is similar to the last man standing. We must retain services in rural areas by channelling them through the local post office, thus keeping local villages alive and maintaining vital services in rural areas.

8:00 pm

Photo of Martin KennyMartin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I bring greetings from the National Ploughing Championships where I spent most of the day. Rural Ireland is alive and well-----

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Good.

Photo of Martin KennyMartin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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-----and working very hard. People from various rural communities throughout the country are angry about the situation. I know that the Minister is aware of this because he comes from a rural community. People are angry because they believe the Government has let them down. As my colleague just said, in many small towns and villages where post offices are due to close, other services have been withdrawn in recent years. We are not in this situation because of what happened in recent weeks or months but due to what happened in the past 20 years. The post office service has been run down. In fairness to the Minister, he was not in office while that was happening, but others have allowed it to happen.

The harp over the door in the post office is meant to symbolise the State providing services for the people. Thirty or 40 years ago the Department was known as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. What happened to it? Communications was considered to be a vital service the Government provided for the people, but that is no longer the case. It is something to be chopped and changed, privatised, hived off, cut back and made smaller and more compact. Government is getting smaller. Two weeks ago at a committee meeting I said I felt it was part of a corrupt political system. I was not being personal towards the Minister or the Department but the entire system in this country. We have a political system that is about small government, government shrinking and stating to the public that it will not interfere too much in people's lives. Such a model was championed by Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan in the 1980s. That is the model people are experiencing throughout the country and unless we change it, there is no hope for rural areas because the places that will be impacted on first by such a model of governance are those that are under the most pressure, namely, places such as my community in Aughavass where the post office has closed and where there is little prospect of getting a new contract in place, although the post office would be co-located with a bar and a shop. The same situation is evident in the town of Killeshandra and Ballinphull and Gorteen, County Sligo where the post office is closed and people are seeking to take it over. That is happening all over the country. These communities deserve to have post offices. Other individuals want the contracts and are prepared to apply for them to run the post office for the benefit of the community. It is not too much to ask that the Government which represents the people, who are the messengers of the people and who are elected into government do what they need and provide a vital communications service for the public. The post office is a public office with a harp over the door to where people can go to avail of a service in their community.

I wish to focus on the core of the issue for communities. When people were told that their post office was to close, they were told the community could seek a review of the decision. The review was to look at the criteria used to close each post office. Reference was made to the number of people in a community. It was said no community with fewer than 500 people would be left without a post office. When we get into the detail, it appears that the reference is to no settlement with fewer than 500 people would be left without a post office. I teased out the issue at the recent committee meeting which the Minister also attended. It was acknowledged that An Post was using the definition of a settlement in the 2016 census, namely, 500 people living in at least 50 occupied houses, none of which was more than 100 m apart. Anyone who knows anything about the country knows that the vast majority of rural communities live in dispersed rural settlements with scattered dwellings. That is the way we have evolved over centuries, possibly for thousands of years, yet we use the stupid model I have outlined to decide whether we will keep vital post office services in place. The first thing the Minister needs to do is go back to An Post and tell those involved in the review of postal services that in order to make decisions about putting post offices in place, they must change the criteria used. They need to accept that, for example, in my parish when people speak about the community or the settlement, they speak about the entire parish. In other areas they speak about a village and a reasonable distance around it from which people commute to avail of postal services. The definition of a settlement is totally anti-rural and destroys everything those who stand up for rural Ireland should support.

I spoke privately to the Minister about the issue and will not divulge the contents of a private conversation. The Minister said post offices such as my local post office in Aughavass should have a fair chance of survival because they had a pub, a shop and other services located there. Post offices in Killeshandra, Gorteen, Ballinphull and other places should have a fair chance of survival if they can be co-located, but that option seems to have been turned on its head by the managers in An Post. The challenge is for the Minister to stand up to An Post and make sure he stands up for rural areas and provides postal services for everyone who deserves them.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Táim buíoch as an deis labhairt ar an rún tábhachtach seo. Ba mhaith liom mo chuid buíochas a ghabháil leis an Teachta Brian Stanley as ucht an rún a chur faoi bhráid na Dála. Iarraim tacaíocht ó gach aon Teachta don rún atá os ár gcomhair.

The programme for Government contains a number of commitments on the postal network, principally in respect of providing additional services through post offices such as motor tax services, which would assist in safeguarding the future viability of the post office network. The announcement three weeks ago of the closure of 159 local post offices, however, flies in the face of repeated pronouncements that the Government is committed to the post office network. As the Minister well knows, post offices form a vital part of local communities. The fact is that their closure will have a devastating impact on many, mostly rural and in a lot of cases isolated, communities. That is a direct result of Government inaction which has resulted in the decline of the post office network and has not allowed alternative services to be established and expanded, as promised in the programme for Government.

Members of Fianna Fáil, despite the rhetoric, are as complicit as those on the Government benches. Between 2000 and 2011, Fianna Fáil closed 732 post offices; therefore, it is a little galling to listen to Fianna Fáil representatives talking tough about post office closures when the reality is that they will do nothing to prevent it from happening. Sinn Féin, however, has a motion before the Dáil. It is a common-sense motion, practical in its approach and calls on the Government to prevent post offices closures by advertising new contracts; to reinvigorate the network by extending the services post offices provide and retaining existing services such as social welfare payments; to implement proposals contained in the Kerr report from 2016 which included post offices providing financial and Government services; and to commit to a new model of community banking. These are meaningful actions which would go a long way to ensuring the future survival of the post office network.

Mar sin, iarraim ar gach Teachta, Teachtaí Dála de chuid Fhianna Fáil san áireamh, tacú leis an rún atá roimh an Dáil anocht.

8:10 pm

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Táim fíorbhuíoch as deis a bheith agam labhairt ar an ábhar fíorthábhachtach seo. Tréaslaím leis an Teachta Kenny a chuir an rún ós comhair na Dála seo le síniú. Shínigh mé féin agus mo chuid comhghleacaithe é. Cuireann sé isteach go mór ar mo chontae féin ina bhfuil 17 d'oifigí poist atá le druid mar gheall ar an neamart a bhfuil an Rialtas ag déanamh orthu. Is ionsaí millteanach é ar cheantair tuaithe, agus go háirithe ar cheantair Ghaeltachta ina bhfuil go leor de na hoifigí poist sin lonnaithe. Mar a dúirt an Teachta Mary Lou McDonald, tugann an Clár Rialtais gealltanas go mbeadh an Rialtas ag caomhnú agus ag cothú na n-oifigí poist seo.

A Programme for a Partnership Government contains a commitment to protect the postal network, but, far from protecting it, the Government is decimating it and driving a knife through the heart of rural Ireland. It is very clear from the meetings I have attended in recent weeks that the people of rural Ireland will not stand for it. They are on their feet, attending meetings and making clear that they will not stand for another cut in services in their local communities.

It was announced that 159 post offices were to close. However, all Members know that post offices and the services they provide have long been a symbol of rural Ireland. These services have been part of the fabric of almost every aspect of community life, both economically and socially, for many years. We also know that that fabric and those institutions has been under sustained attack since the 2000s. As Deputy Mary Lou McDonald stated, 732 post offices were closed over 11 years by Fianna Fáil-led Governments. On average, those Governments oversaw the closure of a post office every week. Closures were made in my parish, affecting communities such as those in Crolly and Gweedore, places where people wanted to keep their post office and postmasters wanted to ensure there was a service, but they were closed down. The Government then closed the closest post office to Gweedore, that in Dunlewey. It was trying to sell a pup to the public and state they could go to the post office in a place such as Bunbeg or wherever the nearest one might be. However, the Minister now plans to close those post offices.

Last night I attended a meeting in Gortahork. The 3,500 people who live there will be left without a post office. The Minister of State at the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Joe McHugh, tá sé ag caint ar straitéis 20 bliain. Cad é an maith atá le straitéis 20 bliain muna bhfuil seirbhísí curtha ar fáil ó thaobh na Gaeilge de? Ba chóir go mbeadh seirbhísí ar fáil i nGaeilge sna ceantair sin. Nil sé ceart nó cóir go bhfuil daoine sa cheantar is láidre Gaeltachta sa tír ag fágáil an cheantair. Tagann sé salach ar an méid atá an Rialtas ag déanamh.

Is féidir leis an rud ceart a dhéanamh. Is féidir leis éisteacht le glór phobal na tuaithe. The Government can still do the right thing. It can listen to the voices of rural communities. It can listen to the voices of the people who have taken to the streets and sent the clear message for us to deliver to the Government that they will not take this lying down because they have seen what the closure of a post office means for communities. They saw this when Fianna Fáil closed 732 post offices, many of which were located in small shops in rural Ireland; the shops were next to close, followed by the withdrawal of bus and other services. They are saying there can be no more such closures. It is time for the Government to do the right thing. It is time for Fianna Fáil to apologise for what it did, stand with Sinn Féin and support the motion and stand with the people of rural Ireland and defend the services they have available.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The decision to close another 159 post offices across the State is a continuation of the flawed policy perpetrated by Fine Gael's co-partners in government, Fianna Fáil. However, rural communities across the State will not take this lying down. They are mobilising and planning on fighting back for their survival. It is planned to close the post offices in Donard and Coolboy in my constituency of Wicklow. However, the communities in those areas have other plans because they are fighting for their existence. The local Garda station in Donard has already been closed by the Government's friends in Fianna Fáil. It seems that there are plans to reopen it, but they have been shelved while plans to reopen Stepaside Garda station progress. Those living in rural parts of the State such as Donard are genuinely concerned. The people of the area mobilised and held a massive public meeting which was attended by over 120 people who vowed to fight these flawed plans in order to ensure their own survival.

The plans are flawed because the criteria laid down by An Post refer to settlements. According to census 2016, the settlement area of Donard has a population of 196. However, I do not refer to settlements but, rather, to communities, which is what Donard is. It has a wide geographical area, rather than one small settlement area. That community which includes the Glen of Imaal comprises more than 1,500 people, well exceeding the criteria laid down by An Post for a population or settlement area of more than 500 persons not being left without a service. It is a flawed plan. The criteria laid down by An Post state no person will be more than 15 km from a local post office. However, 33% of the 1,500 people of the Donard community who use the post office there on a daily basis live more than 15 km from Dunlavin, which is where the closest post office will be located under this plan. I spoke to an elderly lady in Donard last week when there was a community mobilisation involving 800 people who signed a petition opposing these plans. She is an independent lady of 93 years of age who will not be able to get to Dunlavin. There is no public transport service and she does not drive. She has her pride and does not wish to be a strain on her neighbours or family. What would the Minister say to this elderly woman? She is one person, but many thousands like her across the State will be affected if the plans go ahead. Rural Ireland is fighting back. It is doing so not for the sake of it but to ensure its survival.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I move amendment No. 3:

To delete all words after “Dáil Éireann” and substitute the following: “recognises that:
— post offices provide crucial economic, administrative and social services to communities all around Ireland, especially to those in rural and isolated areas;

— technological and societal changes have presented significant challenges to the existing post office business model and, as a result, the post office network is in need of modernisation to build, maintain and protect a service that meets the needs of communities across the country, both rural and urban, for the medium- and long-term;

— the announcement by An Post of 159 voluntary closures stems from an agreement reached in May with the Irish Postmasters’ Union (IPU) Executive, which was endorsed by 80 per cent of IPU members;

— in its negotiations with An Post, postmasters sought both the modernisation of the network and a voluntary redundancy package for those who wanted to leave the business;

— postmasters throughout the country have given dedicated service to rural and urban communities over many years and individual decisions to exit the business, for whatever reason, must be respected;

— the agreement between An Post and the IPU represents an important first step in reinvigorating our national post office network and in making it a viable, sustainable and modern network for the future;

— the Programme for a Partnership Government is committed to revitalising the An Post network through the introduction of new services; and

— it is longstanding Government policy that postal services will not be directly subsidised by the State, a policy which has been supported by successive Governments;
notes that:
— the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment has taken significant action to ensure the future viability of An Post and secure the future of the post office network, and these actions have resulted in a restructuring of the company, expansion of services in the post office network and have protected thousands of jobs in the postal sector across the country;

— a Government investment of €30 million was secured for An Post in order to safeguard the 5 days a week mail delivery service (€15 million) and to protect post office counter services (€15 million);

— Government action has enabled An Post to stabilise its financial position, develop and begin to implement a strategic plan which has seen the company split into two distinct business units:
(i)An Post Mails and Parcels; and

(ii)(ii) An Post Retail;
— as part of its strategic plan, An Post announced a renewed vision for the post office network which centres on the availability of new services in a modernised, revitalised network, and critical to the implementation of this vision is the deal secured with the IPU;

— An Post is committed to investing €50 million in growing and modernising the post office network over the next few years, which is the equivalent of €45,000 per post office across the country;

— the Government continues to provide significant business to An Post through the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection social welfare contract and National Treasury Management Agency business;

— An Post has confirmed that it has implemented 17.5 of the 19 recommendations of the Final Report of the Post Office Network Business Development Group (Kerr Report) which relate to An Post, and arising from the recommendations of the Kerr Report, Government funding of €80,000 has been allocated to roll out a pilot scheme called ‘Digital Assist’, which will see 10 post offices being equipped to help citizens with online Government interactions;

— the Government has also approved the establishment of an interdepartmental working group, which will report to Government by the end of the year, to identify options, including procurement frameworks, for delivering services to those citizens who do not wish to use, or are unable to use digital services;

— the Government has recently published its report entitled ‘Local Public Banking in Ireland, and on foot of this report, an independent evaluation of local public banking ***will be carried out alongside a stakeholder forum;

— in line with the terms of the agreement with the IPU, a voluntary redundancy package was advertised by An Post and 159 postmasters and postmistresses have elected to avail of this package, as in the majority of cases the business is simply no longer sustainable due to declining footfall;

— while the voluntary redundancy package will result in post office closures, An Post has given a commitment that there will be a post office in every community of over 500 people and within 15 kilometres of 95 per cent of the rural population and 3 kilometres of the urban population;

— a protocol specifically sought by the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment ensures that any closures are on a voluntary basis, and where a closure is due to occur An Post will make an assessment on the future provision of services within the locality by reference to specific criteria;

— individuals, groups or representatives can apply to have decisions reviewed through a new independent review process which will determine if An Post has correctly applied the criteria outlined in the protocol, and any retailer in the locations earmarked for closure can apply to An Post to be considered to take over some or all of the services of that post office and may appeal an unfavourable decision; and

— by facilitating those that wish to exit the business, neighbouring offices will be further supported, thereby ensuring a sustainable network for the future; and
calls on the Government to:
— ensure Government services continue to provide the backbone of a sustainable nationwide post office network;

— support An Post in the roll out of new services and the delivery of its strategic plan to ensure the financial viability of An Post and the continued fulfilment of its mandate to deliver a mail delivery service and a viable post office network; and

— ensure that An Post engages fairly with the 159 communities where postmasters are retiring, to ensure post office services are appropriate to the local area and take into account the potential for co-location.

I thank postmasters the length and breadth of the country for the dedicated service they have given to rural and urban communities over many years. As Members are aware, some postmasters have taken the difficult decision in recent weeks to leave the business. I will return to that issue.

Some people have mischievously given the impression that I do not understand or care about the issues of rural Ireland. As many Members are aware, I represent the most rurally dispersed constituency in the country and have consistently raised the issue of the post office network in Dáil Éireann over many years. I have first-hand experience of the concerns and issues involved. I understand the concerns of older people and that this is an anxious time for many of them. I have watched the gradual demise of the post office network over many years. More than 500 post offices closed during the economic boom between 2002 and 2007, while people sat on their hands and allowed the post office network to fall into decline. There was no new investment in the network or services provided. I do not want that to continue. My objective is to keep as many post offices as possible viable and open across the country.

As I have previously pointed out, some post offices have minimal numbers of transactions. One particular post office issues 11 social welfare payments a week. We all know of places the length and breadth of the country where people are voting with their feet, bypassing the local post office and going elsewhere. That is the reality which cannot be ignored.

The postmasters of this country and the communities they serve deserve a clear future and a plan to be put in place for the development of and investment into the post office network and its services. Such action was not taken by a series of Governments through the decades. Although Government after Government promised to do something, nothing was done. We have now set out a clear path and a future for the post office network and by the middle of next year, every single post office in this country will have access to high-speed broadband.

As a Member of Dáil Éireann, I have for many years put forward constructive solutions to bring new business into the post office network. I am now in the lucky position that I can implement some of those solutions. I point out to Members here, some of whom have been Members of this House for a considerable number of years, that I was one of only five Members of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann to make a submission to the Kerr report. I want to take this opportunity to thank Bobby Kerr for his meticulous work on this issue. An Post has confirmed that it has implemented just over 17 of the 19 recommendations appropriate to that company in the Kerr report. In addition, the Government has recently agreed to look at a new offline avenue for all Government online services. This work has started and the Government will be updated on progress before the end of the year. We want to have a sustainable post office network that is available to all our citizens, both urban and rural, in the medium and long term. Although I accept that the closures will have an impact on the communities served by the post offices in question, the background to this issue has not been well represented.

It is important to put the An Post announcement relating to the changes to the post office network in context. Ninety-eight weeks ago, I was presented with a future for An Post and the post office network that was uncertain and very bleak. I was determined that the company would not go under and there was a real possibility that would happen because of the failure by successive Governments to act. The potential for a complete shutdown of postal services with the loss of thousands of jobs was undeniable. Immediate action was needed to ensure the survival of An Post. We also needed to safeguard the post office network. That was necessary to protect thousands of jobs across the country. Nine thousand people work in An Post. Those imperative requirements needed decisions. I can tell the House that those decisions have been forthcoming. I did not shirk my responsibility as Minister, as my predecessors did. We have worked tirelessly to restructure the company to save it. I am sure members will recall the urgent need to introduce legislation to facilitate the increase in the price of a stamp. That was an essential first step to avoid a cash crunch for the company and give An Post time to construct a plan for a sustainable future. The challenges facing An Post were recognised across all political parties. I acknowledge the support I received from colleagues on all sides of the House to put that legislation in place and provide a much-needed window for An Post to put its strategic plan in place.

I also worked hard on securing Government investment of €30 million in An Post to safeguard the five days a week mail service and collection service and to protect the post office counter services. Two years later, critically important decisions have been made. An Post has been stabilised because of the action that has been taken, and it is now one of the few mail services in the world that is expanding its service from a five days a week letter service to a six days a week parcel service. The fabric of services An Post delivers has been strengthened.

The company is changing from a 19th century model to one that has relevance and resonance in the 21st century in both rural and urban areas. In fact, the current postmasters’ contract dates back to 1907, and we all accept that things have changed dramatically since then. While the future is not as bleak for An Post, the underlying challenges remain. Mail volumes continue to decline. E-substitution and the move to online payments and online banking continue to have an impact on the post office network. There is widespread acceptance that the post office network requires modernisation to build, maintain and protect a service that meets the needs of communities throughout this country. An Post’s strategy for the post office network centres on the availability of new services in a modernised, revitalised network. These services must include a better range of Government services, financial services and e-commerce services for shoppers and small businesses.

Since taking office, I have been driving the offline avenue with my officials, my Cabinet colleagues, the management team in An Post, the Office of Government Procurement and other agencies. I recently received Government approval to look at an offline avenue for all Government online services. This work has started and Government will be updated on progress before the end of this year. Investment of €50 million in the post office network will now take place, which is equivalent to €45,000 per post office, and is based on getting communities to use the enhanced services their local post office will provide through a modernised network.

These measures are meaningless unless the public use the service An Post provides. Key to the survival of the network is the willingness of all to use it. Government funding of €80,000 has been allocated to roll out the Digital Assist programme. Ten post offices are being equipped to become digital hubs to help citizens navigate online Government services and access other online goods and services.

Essential to delivering on a renewed vision for the post office network is the agreement reached with the Irish Postmasters Union, IPU. This agreement followed months of intensive negotiations which were overseen by Turlough O’Donnell at my invitation. I take this opportunity once again to thank Mr. O’Donnell for his work, time and commitment to this process.

In its negotiations with An Post, postmasters and postmistresses sought the modernisation of the network and a voluntary redundancy package for those who wanted to leave the business. It is important that the decision of those who wish to leave the business is respected. The decision on whether to accept the package was an individual one for each postmaster. All closures have been on a voluntary basis and the IPU has publicly confirmed that.

It is also important to remember that when a post office closes, 70% of that business will transfer to the neighbouring office. The reality is that by facilitating those who wish to exit the business, neighbouring offices will be further supported, thereby ensuring the sustainability of the network as a whole. Deputies will be aware that an independent appeals process has been put in place to enable communities to review the decision of An Post. Retailers have the opportunity to look for those new and additional services and that can be independently reviewed as well.

8:20 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Dooley. I understand the Deputy has an arrangement with colleagues.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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My time is shared. The time slots were submitted. The Minister has taken the wrong approach to this debate from the very start. He has taken the position of An Post and based the closure of post offices around viability. We know that 159 post offices, and a far greater number, are not profitable. We accept that. People have changed the way they live their lives. Some people do their transactions online. Some people email. They do not use the services of the post office, and the Minister thinks the solution is to embarrass more people into using the post office. There are more services that can be delivered but there is no guarantee that if the Minister follows this profit and loss approach he seems to have bought into, these locations will ever be financially viable, but their closure and their elimination go to the ruination of the communities they serve. The Minister should be looking at the viability of the communities and the services the people need.

Nowhere have I ever heard a Minister with responsibility for transport say that if a road is lightly trafficked and there is not enough traffic on it, we will not fill the potholes unless more people use it. They have never said it because it is an essential public service. Equally, the post office is an essential public service to elderly and vulnerable people who cannot make the ten or 15 km to the nearest service. That might make the neighbouring post office viable in that, with more transactions, it breaks even.

What about the people who have to make that trip? They have to pay for taxis, as Deputy Stanley said, or get relations to bring them to collect their social welfare payments. That is an unfair encumbrance on them. It is an intolerable burden. The hollowing out of the social welfare payments from that community will have a cascading negative effect. It will take money away from the local shops and other businesses and we will see a further denigration of services in those communities.

I accept that previous Governments allowed post offices to close. In many cases, the contract was re-offered and other businesses did not take them up because the demand had deteriorated.

8:30 pm

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is an insult.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I will get to that in a minute. Never before was there such a wholesale thing-----

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Fianna Fáil turned its back on rural communities.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, I have tried not to be drawn by Deputy Pearse Doherty and I will take no history lesson from Sinn Féin Deputies. I will avoid the temptation to remind them how they treated postmasters and postmistresses in the past. I will pass on that but I will not take the lecture.

The reality is that on many occasions when post offices closed, there was no alternative and nobody took the business up. There was no attempt made by a Government at that stage to do a wholesale closure. If services can be identified that will generate more income for the businesses where a post office could be co-located, there is an opportunity, but I would not hang my hat on that solution or say it would bring the remaining post offices up to the viability threshold. What we have to get over as a State is being prepared to provide a level of subvention to support the delivery of postal services in those communities. It does not have to be a stand-alone post office.

I have sat in meetings the same as everyone else over the last months and heard it said that we could put the post office into a local shop. We do not need a postmaster or postmistress; we do not need concrete ceilings and roofs. The lads in Sinn Féin will appreciate that some of those threats we were talking about do not exist any more because of decommissioning and so on.

There is an opportunity to deliver the social welfare payments through the PostPoint platform. That has the capacity to ensure that social welfare payments are retained within communities and it would probably cost significantly less than the older model. At the community meetings that I attended, the people on those nights were more than happy to put forward ideas like that and would be happy if that service could be accommodated. The Minister has given some hope by suggesting the PostPoint platform could be expanded. So long as it can be expanded to deliver social welfare payments, there is the capacity to meet the needs of the communities.

However, this should not be allowed to take from the other villages that are now expecting to get the windfall from the closures because that is robbing Peter to pay Paul, which does not work either. That would be making big of one community and destroying another, and we should not be about that, in truth. We need to see a policy coming forward from the Minister's Department. I am sure he will get support from my side of the House and, based on the motion Sinn Féin has put forward tonight, it seems largely to be of a similar mindset to support the idea of State subvention for the smaller post offices that would not be viable no matter what business model the Minister came up with.

The Minister knows the small communities. I will name the post offices that are for closure in County Clare. Cooraclare post office almost closed but the village managed to retain its post office through a deal with the local postmaster. Doonbeg, Cree, Kilfenora, Lissycasey and Fanore are places where we absolutely need to retain the post office service. They are synonymous with similar villages throughout rural Ireland. The post office network cannot be condensed any further. I am of the view that we should protect what we have. For sure, there might be a fall-off in business in future years but just because there is a fall-off in demand does not mean we should eliminate a service for the elderly and vulnerable that is so much needed.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Tom O'Callaghan from the Independent Postmasters Group and representatives of Save Ballinfull Post Office in north Sligo, who are in the Gallery and represent the many protestors who were outside the House today.

Increasingly, the Minister and his colleagues look more like chairmen of a GAA club. They get to stand in for the photo on ceremonial occasions and say a few words but they really have nothing to do with running the club. Increasingly we hear the refrain: "That is a matter for An Post, the HSE, HIQA or Transport Infrastructure Ireland, a matter for everybody but me." I am beginning to wonder - as the presidential election begins to kick off for that ceremonial role - about the 15 ceremonial positions the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues are adopting.

We know An Post has a commercial mandate and has to balance the books and there are ways and means of achieving that. One of them is not to sub-contract out to companies or to the Irish Postmasters Union, as a private trade union representing members. Good luck to the IPU - it does a good job - but it does not represent communities.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We represent communities. We decide on their behalf what services they are provided with and where they are provided. That is the Minister's responsibility and he has abdicated it. He talks of a 19th century model being modernised. What is his plan? Is it to put everybody into a city? We have a culture in this country where people live in communities. Our responsibility in this House and what we are all paid good money for is to provide them with services, but no, the Minister is obsessed with the cost of everything and the value of nothing. It was a community that elected him and his father before him and everybody else that represented anybody in this House in the past. We have a responsibility to communities. I ask the Minister to remember who elected him and why he is here. It is not for the photo-call; he is here to provide services. He must reverse this decision.

Photo of Pat CaseyPat Casey (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the motion and fully support Fianna Fáil's amendment, which brings a degree of realism and ambition to an issue that is causing great hardship to rural communities in Wicklow. Rural post offices should not be held to the same profit and loss margins that other businesses are bound by. The Bobby Kerr report rightly outlined the social capital character of post office services in rural Ireland.

In Wicklow, the latest post offices to be closed by the Fine Gael Government include Donard and Coolboy and there are many more to follow. In the case of Donard, the minimum distance requirements determined by An Post are being breached with many rural customers of Donard post office living much further than the minimum distance of 15 km. On that condition alone, I ask the management of An Post to review the decision and accept the business proposals from the community of Donard. However, I am not confident the Government or senior management of An Post will take their responsibilities seriously.

Nearly two years ago, my local post office in Laragh closed even though the Laragh-Glendalough area receives more than 1.2 million visitors a year. Our locally-led campaign was successful in achieving a review of that decision and two credible, sustainable and enterprising alternative business plans were sent to An Post. The response from An Post in two years has been that the review is still taking place and no decision has been made. To have 24 months of inertia in any business is nonsense but in this case it indicates An Post's total lack of interest in seeking alternatives to closures throughout rural Wicklow and Ireland.

Our public service obligation model would save post offices in rural Wicklow and allow the State to provide these needed services to many rural areas. Rural pensioners, farmers, businesses and families pay the same taxes and obey the same laws and they expect equal treatment by Government services. Today's protest from ordinary people must be listened to. Rural Wicklow deserves equality in service delivery.

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Our postmaster in Kiskeam refused to take voluntary redundancy and we must pay huge tribute to him for trying to hold the post office in our community. Although we have the matter of commercial sensitivity and all the rest of it, An Post is a social contract with the people. We have to fundamentally understand that. Every community that loses a post office loses the heartbeat of the community and its social contract. We have to make up our mind as a people as to whether we are going to make sure that these rural communities are vibrant into the future. If we start losing services, we will curtail their ability to be relevant. I know many of my colleagues want to speak on this and I will give them as much time as possible.

We need to make sure the social contract is in place. That underlines the reason we are in favour of having a public post office in each and every community.

8:40 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Tá áthas orm deis a fháil chun labhairt ar an rún fíorthábhachtach seo maidir le na hoifigí poist. The current plan for rationalising post offices is an extremely blunt instrument. No consideration has been given to rural proofing, social and economic grounds, the exact and central locations of post offices or those who do not have transport available to them. Even the population calculations are based on settlements rather than population. Like Deputy Pearse Doherty, I attended numerous meetings in County Donegal in the past few weeks that were attended by hundreds of people. There are a lot more than 500 people in each and every one of the areas affected. It was contrived. The settlement pattern was used to try to ensure all of the post offices could be contracted based on a figure above 500. The majority of areas in my county have a population well in excess of 500.

The timing of the announcement was despicable. The Minister may not know but An Post decided, in conjunction with someone else, to make it when the Dáil was in recess. It was a time when there would be the least publicity, which meant that it might have gone under the radar, but my goodness, it did not. County Donegal has been extremely hard hit. Who took the decision? It was not made according to any objective analysis. It forced postmasters and postmistresses to take a decision. I believe we must go back to the drawing board. My party is happy to support having a public service obligation that might cost in the region of €8 million to ensure we will have a continuation of the excellent services that have been provided during the years. Those who have been made an offer it are quite entitled to take it, but a decision must be taken on co-location and to immediately reduce many of the overheads that are part of the losses by 50%.

Photo of Margaret Murphy O'MahonyMargaret Murphy O'Mahony (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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In the past few months 12 communities in County Cork, four of which are in my constituency of Cork South-West and one of which is in a neighbouring constituency, were dealt a devastating blow. The areas include Allihies, Ballineen, Desertserges, Drinagh and Minane Bridge. As I worked in the post office for many years, I know first hand the economic and social benefits provided for a community by a post office. If someone collects his or her social welfare payment, he or she will spend the money in the locality. He or she will do his or her grocery shopping, have his or her hair done or have a cup of tea. If we take that money away from the community, we will take away business from it. What have not been mentioned that much are the post offices which encompass sorting offices. Businesses built around these post offices will have to wait far longer to receive their post. Ballineen is one, if the Minister is asking what they are. On the one hand, we are trying to encourage people to set up businesses and, on the other, taking away a lifeline.

I have heard the Minister say many times that nobody was forced into this as if it was a feather in his cap. That may be the case, but at the same time, communities are at a loss. A contract to provide a service in the area should be given to someone else. The Minister has often spoken about being one of the five people to make a submission to Mr. Bobby Kerr. That is grand and well done, but Deputy Denis Naughten is now Minister and the buck stops with him.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the remarks made by Deputy Margaret Murphy O'Mahony when she spoke about how she learned about the economic and social benefits of post offices provided for local communities through her work in the post office during the years. None of us should ever ignore the fact that most postmasters and postmistresses went beyond the call of duty during the years in assisting people who might not have had good numeracy or literacy skills. As a society, we are being abusive to people who do not have those skills, may not have access to technology or are not technology-friendly. We should be able to provide a service to ensure people will not be left behind because of a lack of numeracy or literacy skills or an inability to travel a distance by car to receive their pension.

Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher referred to the fact that the wrong measurement of the population of an area had been used. People are going by the last census. We know that the entire population of a town might not be included in a census. Two of the streets in Killeshandra where the post office is closing have not been factored in in the number of people who use that post office.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is why there is a review mechanism.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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It is very important that there be a realistic measurement to take the entire catchment area into account. I said this at a public meeting lasdt Saturday in Kilnaleck where I saw people from a wide catchment area who would not have been factored in in the population taken into account.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Seven post offices across the constitutency of Cavan-Monaghan are set to close. Of course, the Minister has a responsibility to ensure viability, but the most important reason should be the social conscience and social fabric of communities. In the areas in question those who will be hit hardest will be the elderly and the most vulnerable. The Minister spoke about the changing era and technology being the cause of all of this. I can assure him that most houses across counties Cavan and Monaghan and the rest of rural Ireland do not have broadband; therefore, it is not the case that they can turn to technology to compensate for the loss of their post offices. The issue of broadband provision would need to be well sorted out before we consider closing any post office. The towns and villages where it is proposed to force post offices to close have already lost their banks, have no ATMs and perhaps seen the closure of Garda stations. This may be the last financial institution standing in those towns and villages. Last year I held a public meeting in Shercock that was attended by over 200 people. There was a public meeting in Killeshandra that was attended by hundreds of people. Last Saturday hundreds of people attended a meeting in Kilnaleck. People do care. It is not an issue that will go away. Deputy Timmy Dooley made a very valid point about the public service obligation, at which the Minister should look.

Photo of Eamon ScanlonEamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Eleven post offices in my constituency, part of which was included in the Minister's constituency at one stage, will close. I know that post offices will close and that there is nothing we can do about it, but there are post offices that are viable. I speak of those in Gorteen and Ballinfull, County Sligo and Newtowngore, County Leitrim. These post offices would be well able to survive if they were given an opportunity. People must apply to the review. I believe in the public service obligation where needed. Bus services are run in Dublin where there is no problem with the public service obligation. We need money to run these services for the elderly people with whom we are trying to deal because they are being discriminated against.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I am amazed that the number of post offices to be closed in my county is 12. Where capacity has reached a low ebb in the context of activity levels in some of these post offices, I can understand a postmaster or postmistress making a decision to exit the market. That is understandable and the reasons are very personal. The Kerr report was published in 2016. The Minister tells us that in 2018 An Post has implemented just over 17 of the 19 recommendations made. I put it to him and An Post that many of the post offices affected in County Cork were never contacted or had no engagement on the recommendations made in the Kerr report. Their capacity was reduced to such an extent that they decided to exit the market.

There was no meaningful engagement on the Kerr report in regard to e-payments, motor tax or community hub pilots in respect of many of the post offices in Cork, such as at Minane Bridge, Lackaroe, Drinagh, Carrigadrohid, Ballynoe, Ballyclough, Ballineen and Allihies. It may not seem a long distance but for the people of Allihies to drive to Eyeries is a distance of approximately 11 km and from Lackaroe to Youghal is 5 km. While this does not seem a long distance, it is the loss of an essential service.

The Minister will not convince me that those making the Kerr recommendations, of which the Minister said An Post has accepted 17 of the 19, visited these post offices in any way, shape or form in order to allow these communities at least a fighting chance if they decided they wanted to retain the service in their area. We need a further analysis of some of the postulations of the Minister in terms of his speech to the House. When we stood here in 2017 to reluctantly agree to facilitate the increase in the cost of the stamp to €1, we did so in good faith on the basis that the revenue generated would allow An Post a fighting chance. We did not do it on the basis that 159 post offices would be closed as a result. I do not know if the Minister sold us a pup-----

8:50 pm

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I was given a pup when I went into the Department.

Photo of Seán SherlockSeán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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-----but if the revenue increase as a result of that increase in the cost of the stamp was used to buy out contracts or pay part of a redundancy, then I believe we should demand absolute transparency in regard to that process.

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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This is a real blow to rural communities, to pensioners and to people who are dependent on social welfare. It is the biggest cull of post office services in the history of the State - 159 closures, effectively in one fell swoop. The post office in Allihies has been mentioned as one of the post offices in County Cork that will be closed. The nearest post office to people living in this area is now 10.9 km away, which makes it difficult for people with disabilities or people who do not drive to avail of the postal service.

The media tonight are trying to say that the movement to resist post office closures is on the wane and they are pointing to the size of the protest outside Leinster House today. The protest outside today was not at all insignificant, given it is a working day, given the ploughing championships and so on. A more accurate picture of the level of resistance to these post office closures is shown by the size and scale of the protest meetings being held in communities throughout rural Ireland. I received correspondence from a community campaigning to save its local post office in Gurteen, County Tipperary. Some 500 people attended the public meeting in opposition to that closure, which is an indication of the level of resistance.

There is talk of a general election in the air: "Will Leo roll the dice?", "Will Leo not roll the dice?" and so on. There are a number of issues the Taoiseach would need to be mindful of if he is considering going down that road. The biggest one nationally is housing, whereby people will vote for change and vote against the Government. In rural Ireland, however, the post office issue is a real issue which poses dangers for the Government and it will ignore those communities and their wishes at its peril.

Post office services, first and foremost, should be provided on the basis of the needs of communities and the people who live in those communities, rather than on a break-even basis. That is my belief; it is a socialist, left opinion. It is clearly not an opinion that is shared by the Government but it is also not shared by other parties in this House because the decline in the post office infrastructure has taken place under both Fianna Fáil-led and Fine Gael-led Governments - right-wing government that turns its back on the idea of providing a service for a community and instead looks at it in terms of pounds, shillings and pence.

To look at post office services a little more broadly, but in a way that is very relevant to this debate, back in 2011, after examining the effects of opening the postal service to the free market in mainland Europe, the Communication Workers Union was able to predict widespread job losses, a severe strain on the universal service obligation and a decline in the quality and level of postal services. What is happening at the moment has to be seen in light of those points. I would also make the point that in addition to recent closures and job losses, An Post employees have also experienced wage reductions over the last few years which have resulted in savings of €100 million. We need to learn from the experience in this country and internationally. Cutbacks in postal services and privatisation of essential services are a total failure for customers, for working people and for the communities they serve.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As an Independent Deputy for Galway West, and with Galway being the county picked out to have the highest number of closures, I am trying to avoid despair at the decisions that were made. There are 18 closures in Galway city and county, from the Gaeltacht to east Galway, including Indreabhán, where the criteria do not match the population on the ground, which is way in excess of 500.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is why the review process is there.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Minister might say that. Tonight I do not want to thank the Minister but to acknowledge the work done by the Public Banking Forum of Ireland, the Independent Postmasters Group and the International Small Business Alliance for their oral and written submissions to the Oireachtas committee on 4 September, their letters to Deputies and their letter of 27 June. I specifically mention it because all of that has been done on a voluntary basis. They have done it to educate us and what they have done, thankfully, has changed the narrative from the very limited debate of saving our post offices to one that envisages the transformation of our post offices into a network of thriving, profitable community banking services and multi-service providers. They have given us all of this language and all the statistics, and they have moved on to point out the intrinsic link between the future of the post office network and the future of Ireland's indigenous economy and indigenous companies, which are the backbone of our economy.

They have pointed to the crucial difference between funding the productive economy, which is very important, and the funding of speculative bubbles, and the role of the post office network in assisting the transformation of the Irish socioeconomy. They go on to give us examples from New Zealand and Germany. Indeed, the programme for Government committed to looking at a community banking model and I have read the report prepared for the Minister on local public banking in Ireland. Extraordinarily, it highlights exactly what those organisations have said. It points out the advantages and the returns to the community of these types of models but it goes on to say there is no case for rolling them out in Ireland because it would involve the spending of public money, and some €170 million is mentioned.

Coincidently, I am on the Committee of Public Accounts and tomorrow we will be examining the billions of euro paid to the banks with absolutely no return or pay-off to the economy. This is a model with huge pay-off on every level. It will keep our rural areas thriving and will be the backbone of indigenous industry, yet the Minister has rejected it. I ask him to review that.

9:00 pm

Photo of Thomas PringleThomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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Across Donegal, there are 17 post office closures. Galway and Donegal have the greatest number of closures nationally. In Donegal, one has Dunkineely, Brinlack, Bunbeg, Burtonport and numerous others will close. It is the responsibility of the Minister and An Post that those closures are taking place and they are doing nothing to ensure the survival of the remaining post offices. There will be further closures over the coming years in response to which the Minister will wring his hands and say he did his best to roll out services. I do not believe he has done his best or that the best has been done for post offices.

Deputy Connolly outlined how An Post could be an alternative banking model. It is perfectly feasible and could be done if An Post was willing. I sat on the committee last week when the head of An Post said no one came to him. Why did he not go out and speak to people? He is responsible for maintaining the service and he should be going out and speaking to people. The Government has divided itself from An Post in order to keep a separation which allows it to say there is nothing it can do because its role relates only to governance, not to day-to-day operations or the closure of services. The Government has failed An Post and the service will be failed further because it will not be allowed to develop.

Fianna Fáil presided over the closure of 460 post offices. The least we can say for the Government is that it has put together a plan, although it is a failed one. Fianna Fáil simply closes post offices. Both parties are cut from the same cloth because as long as An Post is required to be independent and to tender services on a financial basis, we will see the decline of rural Ireland. We have to make our post offices a centre for communities. Only then will we see post offices developing. That is what is important.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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While post office closures constitute an issue which will massively affect rural communities, they are also an issue in my own urban constituency in Rialto where I have worked with people to prevent the closures. We heard recently that Bluebell post office could be under threat with the retirement of a postmaster. I have been in contact with An Post, which is trying to get that out for tender now. There is always the difficulty of rent prices. The question therefore arises as to how the Government should supply services according to need and what sort of intervention should take place to provide those services. Many of our vital local services are under threat today, whether it is post office or bus services, in rural and urban areas. We have a Government which is fixated on the notion that market forces, the private sector and profits constitute the only way to provide the services people need for a decent life. We need only look at the housing crisis to see where this fixation has led.

It is now ten years since the great financial crash of 2008 when a banking system obsessed with huge profits, speculation, bonuses and favoured clients, such as big property developers, brought the country to its knees. Another crash is entirely possible and being spoken about internationally. I do not feel confident at all that things have changed in the world of "too big to fail" private banks. That is the reality. We need an alternative way to do things which acknowledges a right to housing and affordable and efficient public transport. There is a right to live in viable and sustainable communities in urban and rural settings. Central to such an alternative must be the idea of public not-for-profit banking. This is where the failure is. I saw the statement from the Irish Postmasters Union saying that community banking is not a panacea for the challenges faced by the post office network, but in my view it would play a crucial role in maintaining the post office network if public banking were brought into it. Public banking is a sensible and completely workable proposal for an alternative banking system. It has been working successfully in Germany as we know, having had representatives from the German community banking sector in Leinster House speaking to Members in committee.

I ask Fianna Fáil what its criteria were for closing almost 752 post offices during its time in power. The party has challenged the Minister here as to what his criteria are. We must maintain these services in our communities. This issue is the needs of our elderly and people who want to use alternative banking. That is what we should be addressing. It would work successfully and I hope the Minister will introduce it.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Rural Independents have a total of six minutes for four speakers. Deputy Michael Collins is first.

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I had hoped the Government had learned from the errors of its predecessor but the fact that we are here tonight fighting to save our post offices shows that nothing has changed. I have seen five post offices targeted for closure in my west Cork constituency, including a three-generation post office in Allihies, which will close in January, Drinagh post office, which will close in October, and Minane Bridge post office. Ballineen and Desertserges post offices have already closed their doors. I sincerely thank the O'Driscoll family in Ballineen for 44 years of service and Hannie Crowley in Desertserges for 43 years of service to the people.

The Government is continuously letting down the people of rural Ireland. For years, postmasters and postmistresses have had to put up with living on the minimum wage and being treated terribly by the Government. In the last two weeks in west Cork alone, I have seen the closure of Lisgriffin national school, Ballineen post office, Hickey's foodstore in Kilbrittain and Lordan's butcher shop in Ballinspittle. Rural Ireland is suffering every day as our community amenities close. We have seen the closure of schools, banks, post offices, Garda stations and local shops. Where does this end? The Government promised rural proofing during talks to form an Administration. Rural proofing is meant to be a commitment by the Government to review and examine all public policy to ensure it does not disadvantage rural areas. Where is the rural proofing here? How many more post offices will the Government close? No new services were injected into rural post offices. The only Government policy was to get rid of them.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I refer first to a communications consultant who issued a statement this evening on behalf of the IPU. The IPU should have been outside the Dáil to protest with the rest of us, including the independent postmasters led by Mr. Tom O'Callaghan. We should all be on the same side in this argument to keep as many post offices open as possible. I thank Sinn Féin for its motion. However, while its heart is in the right place, its motion does not go far enough. What is needed is the implementation of the 2016 motion voted on by every Deputy here, including the members of Sinn Féin. If that were implemented, it would solve our problem and save as many post offices as possible. I am very sorry that County Kerry is being hit very severely. It is not just a matter of the current wave of 159 closures, but what is coming after. The other post offices are not safe. People who have not been issued with a contract to close will not necessarily survive. We are all in the same boat and going down the Swanee unless the Government wakes up. Unlike others, I do not lay this at the door of the Minister. However, I am looking for the Government to work with us. For God's sake, the Minister, above anyone else, knows the answers to the problem we have. We only want to save as many post offices as possible. That is what we are looking for.

Photo of Michael HartyMichael Harty (Clare, Independent)
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It is the Minister's responsibility to govern for all communities, not just the strongest or luckiest ones. That is what is happening now. It is the strongest and the luckiest that are retaining their post office services. Those which are neither strong or lucky are losing theirs. It is the Government's responsibility to ensure Ireland is not just an economy and to consider the fundamental societal issues this raises. It is not an issue which can be resolved through industrial relations and the retirement of postmasters and postmistresses. That is a very unfair way to deliver the Minister's plan. While 159 have opted to go and 231 have not, all 339 were encouraged to go and will continue to be encouraged to go until they are all gone. There is no guarantee that the 690 post offices which are being offered new contracts will take them up. It is a very unfair way to deliver a post office service.

A Programme for a Partnership Government committed to the exact opposite course to the one the Government is taking. There is no reference in that programme to the closure of 390 post offices. There was a commitment, rather, to support the post office network, provide it with extra services and develop community banking. However, the Government has gone in the opposite direction and against A Programme for a Partnership Government.

We will table an amendment to the motion to propose that our motion of November 2016 be implemented.

9:10 pm

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Post offices have been part of the fabric of rural communities since the foundation of the State. I thank Tom O'Callaghan for attending all the meetings in rural Kerry, where 12 post offices are to close, for his assistance and for attending meetings as far away as Ballinskelligs, way down in south Kerry. Nine post offices in one part of north Kerry are being closed. The Minister says rural communities can appeal and look for a contract to be issued to a new provider but he also says the appeal must be submitted before 26 September.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It is 31 October now. The deadline has been extended.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am asking the Minister to extend it much further than that - for at least one month.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes. It is 31 October. That is an extension of a month.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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People in rural communities have been shocked and are reeling at what is happening in their parishes. The Government says that by closing one post office it is saving two. How does the Minister explain closing nine in one part of north Kerry? What will happen is that people will get their pensions paid into their bank accounts. They will not go to the bigger towns or leave their own communities. The Government is going to close many more of them. I am very disappointed with this Government and this inaction. It is so easy to close everything, which is what seems to be happening; the trick is to keep things open. I am asking the Minister to work harder to ensure that communities-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Glaoim ar an Teachta Carol Nolan.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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No one is begrudging the retirement packages postmasters such as Séamus McCarthy in Gneevgullia-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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An Teachta Carol Nolan, le do thoil.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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-----who gave 52 years behind the counter. No one is begrudging him of the money-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We must be fair.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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-----but the community of Gneevgullia is entitled to a post office service.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy must have respect for his colleagues.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Carol Nolan.

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Offaly, Independent)
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I welcome tonight's motion and support amendment No. 1, wherein we call on the Government to honour immediately its commitment in the programme for Government to support the establishment of a five-year post office network renewal process and to honour the Dáil motion on this very issue that was passed two years ago, yet here we are again.

Much debate on this topic over the past two years and many innovative solutions that could have been implemented by many stakeholders who put them forward were ignored. Post offices were denied opportunities to help them. The closure of 159 post offices in rural areas is nothing short of an abject failure of Government. I call on the Minister to acknowledge his failure and that of his Department and to respond effectively to and address the continued decimation of the rural post office network, which is a testament to his Government's inability to lead change or develop innovative delivery models for the post office and community banking services. If the Minister implemented the community banking services, it would reap benefits for our rural communities. Farming families are unable to access low-credit loans, which is a huge issue that is being widely discussed as we speak at the National Ploughing Championships in Offaly.

There are other issues, including small businesses, which are struggling. The Minister and other Government members have got up several times and spoken about the small businesses in our villages. A community banking system would benefit those businesses and our farming families, who are struggling. We need to look at these solutions. The solutions are there. It is now up to the Minister to take action.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The solutions are coming.

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Offaly, Independent)
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I hope so. When are they coming? Can we expect them-----

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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In the new year.

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Offaly, Independent)
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Okay. We do need them and we all need to ensure that fair play is given to rural communities. We do not want to be back here again in a year or two with the same issue.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call on An Teachta Seamus Healy, who has kindly given two minutes of his time to Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice. The Deputies have a total of eight minutes.

Photo of Séamus HealySéamus Healy (Tipperary, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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I confirm my support for this Private Members' motion on the future of the post office network. This issue raises the whole question of democracy in this country and the relevance of this Dáil. The motion passed here in November 2016, agreed unanimously by the House, meant - or should mean - that the post office network would be supported and improved and that, as the motion stated, "a five-year holding plan will be put in place while these changes are being implemented or there will be no network left to salvage". The House unanimously agreed this motion in November 2016, including the Minister, the Fine Gael Party and every other party and every Independent in this House.

What is the relevance of Dáil Éireann if a motion unanimously accepted by the House is simply thrown aside and An Post carries on as if it never happened? Surely the Minister has something to say about that. Surely this Dáil has something to say about that. We are here as Teachtaí Dála, the messengers of the people, and we all voted here unanimously in November 2016 to support the post office network and to ensure that nothing would happen for a period of five years until the network was built up and established, yet no one takes a blind bit of notice of this, including the Minister, the Government and An Post. One would wonder what is the point of us being here at all.

I thank and compliment the postmaster in Kishkeam, who has refused to take the package, stood up for his local community and said this is a step too far. There is no question but that he is absolutely correct in that, and I applaud him for his leadership in the community. There is no financial necessity for the closures we are seeing, and it should be remembered that the closures are only the beginning. David McRedmond, the CEO of An Post, told us very recently that in 2018 it would make a minimum of €20 million profit and possibly closer to €30 million. This was on top of a profit of €8.4 million in 2017. There is therefore absolutely no reason whatever from a financial point of view for these closures.

The postal service is a public service, not a commercial operation. This means that making profit is not the priority of An Post; providing a public service is its priority. This in turn means that if An Post needs to be subvented by the State, that should be done because there is an obligation on the State to provide public services, including postal services, to local communities. There is no doubt but that it is time to cry halt to this. The Minister, the Government and An Post will not accept the will of the people, the will of this Dáil. We now have 159 post offices closing, and 390 will effectively close over a period if the plan goes ahead. In my constituency we have eight closures in Clogheen, Ballingarry, Templetuohy, Littleton, Newcastle, Coolbaun and Upperchurch. Many of these post offices have more than 500 residents in the area. As everyone here knows, the local post office is the heart and soul of the local community, of local towns and villages, not just from an economic point of view, but also from a social point of view, which is very important. Local communities look to the weekly visit to the post office to keep in touch with everything that goes on in the community.

Many such towns and villages already have lost Garda stations and banks and if they lose the post office, there will be knock-on effects on the local shop, café and hairdresser because if people are not collecting their social welfare payments at the post office, they will not do their other business in the local village either. It is incumbent on the Minister and on this Dáil to ensure that this is reversed immediately.

9:20 pm

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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First, I support the motion and the proposed amendment to it. Some 62% of all the closures are along the west coast, from Kerry right up to Donegal. Some 42% are in the west of Ireland. One in six post offices to be closed are in counties Galway and Roscommon. One thing that needs to be debunked, which I hear day in and day out, is these people had a choice. The fact is they got a letter to state they no longer formed part of An Post's plans. Some of them were sick and some were elderly. Had they not a right? In every walk of life one has a right to take a pension. These people were trying to cling on for the simple reason that An Post would not give the offices to their sons and daughters in the towns and villages about which we are talking.

Every one of us here sat with Mr. McRedmond in the last few weeks. There has been no reply yet to a question he was asked, which was whether the 231 people would be given the new contract. If one of these 231 unfortunately gets sick or dies, will they be replaced? He has not answered that yet. Mr. McRedmond said no more post offices would be closing. I can tell the Minister that this evening I heard another one is to go in the constituency the Minister and I share. That is Mr. McRedmond. Everything he has said seems to have been untruths. He was asked whether there would be an extension made to the appeals process from 27 September or would the formula be changed. Each post office that is closing possesses a computer and a safe. If a business beside that office is willing to help those people and communities and to keep open a shop or a business, will the Minister make sure they are transferred?

Imelda Burke's name was mentioned. She has written to all of her people, as was rightly pointed out, and has got a great response. The Irish Postmasters Union has come out with a statement this evening. It should have been outside that door today because neither An Post nor the Irish Postmasters Union represents the people across rural Ireland. The Minister has to get involved in the appeals mechanism for the simple reason that its terms of reference absolutely will whitewash any hope of people getting a proper set-up.

There is one solution to this and it is a quick one. Deputy Dooley rightly asked whether, if there is a road in an area in which there are not many people, the potholes are fixed. He is dead right. The potholes need to be fixed. Deputy Dooley will be the driver of the lorry in the next few weeks when the budget is being put together. His party will be the one that can stand up under the confidence and supply agreement and either support the Government in closing the post offices or not.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The same as Deputy Fitzmaurice did when he negotiated the programme for Government and then bottled it on the last day.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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At least I did not go in under false pretences. I was not in in one way and out in another.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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He should take responsibility.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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At least I was able to stay out.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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He bottled it.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, please. There is plenty of room at the back of the Chamber. I call on Deputy Cullinane who has ten minutes and who I understand is sharing with Deputies Ó Caoláin, Adams and Ferris.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. First of all, I commend my colleague Deputy Stanley on tabling this motion. Three post offices in my own constituency are closing in Ballinamult, Kilmeaden and Lemybrien. It is true to say that if one does not nail everything down in this State, either Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael will sell it off, privatise it or close it down. It is a bit disingenuous and hard to take when Fianna Fáil representatives come in here with pious words, empty rhetoric and crocodile tears when they closed hundreds of post offices. They have a bit of a brass neck to stand outside Leinster House today and say that what this Government is doing is a disgrace when their party closed hundreds of post offices. Deputy Dooley talked about potholes. There would not be a pothole big enough to be filled with the absolutely empty rhetoric which he spewed here today. His party is directly responsible for the closure of hundreds of post offices. The Deputy should own it.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's party disappeared many people into holes too.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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His party is keeping this Minister in office. He should own it. The Deputy talked about the ruination of rural Ireland. He should take responsibility for the fact that rural Ireland is ruined because of what his party did. Hundreds of thousands of young people are in different parts of the world today because of the policies of his Government, yet time and again the Deputy thinks it is okay to come in here, play politics with people's lives and pretend he cares when he simply does not. If he did care he would not come in here with the brass neck he brings every single time issues like this arise and point the finger at a Minister whom he is keeping in office. He then talks about post offices which are closing tomorrow, next week and next month when Fianna Fáil is responsible for hundreds of post offices closing.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Would be better off having no government? That is what Sinn Féin perpetrated on the Six Counties. It has never taken responsibility for anything.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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He has absolutely zero credibility and the people in rural Ireland know it. He has zero credibility. The Minister with responsibility is gone. It is a pity he did not stay for all of the exchanges.

Photo of Seán KyneSeán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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He will be back.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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He should be here for all of the debate because he is the Minister with responsibility for this area. He should be listening to all of the contributions. I will just say this, because other speakers need to come in. We have put forward solutions, as have others in this House. Independent Members and others, including Fianna Fáil by the way, have put forward some solutions in respect of this issue. One of the obvious solutions is to continue to allow, and to in fact encourage, social welfare recipients to use the post office. The Minister of State's party and Government, however, forced many of them to use banks. The policy of the Government was not just to encourage them but to force them to use banks and to move away from post offices. Again the Minister talks about the fact they are not viable and how they need to be profitable and all the rest while the Government systematically runs them down. I do not have confidence in either Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael to support rural Ireland. They have both failed it. There are towns and villages up and down this State that have lost post offices, Garda stations, schools and healthcare services because of the policies of both parties. I do not have faith in any of them, especially Fianna Fáil which, as I said, has an absolute brass neck to be talking about rural Ireland.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Government has failed rural Ireland. This latest attack on post offices is unforgivable and I today applaud the good people of rural Ireland who have stood up in community centre meetings and in other fora all around the country in opposition to this most damaging measure. In the counties I represent of Cavan and Monaghan, we are facing nine closures, namely, Corraneary, Killeshandra, Kilnaleck, Mountnugent, Swanlinbar and Tullyvin in County Cavan along with Clontibret, Dartrey and Smithborough in County Monaghan. We should make no bones about it, this is totally unacceptable and is unnecessary. The smallest towns and villages in Ireland have seen their economic viability wiped out by the Minister of State's Government. The local bank, butcher, grocer, pub and, in some cases, schools and Garda stations have all disappeared under the Government's watch and under that of its predecessor Administration. The post office was the last hub of both social and economic activity. The local post office was the last stand and this is why we are seeing such resistance. These closures are happening as a result of determined inaction. It is said that these closures are happening because these particular offices are unviable. I put it to the Minister of State that they are unviable because his Government has, by its inaction, made them unviable.

Its programme for Government, in respect of post offices, has reference to an "ePayment Account" and "community banking" but it has sat on its hands. Its rural action plan, published in 2017, stated it would enhance local services "through support for the rural post office network to adapt to a changing business environment". The Cabinet was due to discuss the introduction of a public banking model last January. What was the outcome of these discussions? Officials from the German Sparkasse model offered to act as advisers. I fear the mainstream banks have scuttled this proposal. These are the very same banks that have also abandoned rural Ireland and, by and large, the people of Ireland; the very people who bailed them out when the crash occurred.

I will leave the Minister of State with this. Our most marginalised towns and villages need and deserve support, not closures. The Minister of State neglects them at his peril. I commend the Sinn Féin motion to the House.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I commend Teachta Stanley on tabling this motion. The closure of Garda stations, rural schools and transport systems have torn the heart out of rural communities. Is ionsaí é seo ar dhaoine atá ag brath ar sheirbhísí poiblí.

The proposed closure of 159 post offices, including Annagassan post office in County Louth, makes this worse. In Annagassan, the local post office provides a vital social hub for local people, particularly older citizens. It is a vital public service and the Government has broken the social contract it made with these citizens.

Local services should be enhanced not destroyed. Additional services could and should be delivered to all post offices as the 2016 Kerr report outlined, such as extended financial services, Government services and motor taxes. This would keep jobs and services in rural areas. That is, of course, if the Government is really committed to doing this. Previous Governments have shut down the post office network with Fianna Fáil closing 732 of them. It can stop the Government which it supports from closing any more. The Government must keep to its commitment regarding post offices contained in the programme for Government.

9:30 pm

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Stanley for bringing this motion forward. All rural Deputies are very taken by this debate because we know the consequences of the closure of a post office for a small village. If one closes the post office, then one effectively closes the village's only pub and shop. The knock-on effect is quite significant. This is all done in the name of viability with the claim these post offices are no longer viable. This wonderful word is being used by An Post and by the Government. What about social viability? What about viability for the elderly people who live in rural communities?

During the week I was with Deputies Michael and Danny Healy-Rae at a meeting about the closure of the post office in Ballinskelligs. It is 14 miles away from Cahersiveen on a peninsula. Nearly 400 people attended the meeting and they knew about the viability of their post office. The post office in Mastergeehy will also be closed, meaning the two post offices in the only Gaeltacht area in south Kerry will be shut. That is a nice statement to those trying to promote the Irish language and ensure it survives. They are also doing a good job at it. It was heartening to see the conversation at that meeting both as Gaeilge and through English. The closure of the post offices in Ballinskelligs, Mastergeehy, Ballylongford and Moyvane will have a knock-on effect. Up to 16 post offices are due to close in Kerry because of this great word "viability".

Deputy Healy spoke about the motion on post offices passed in 2016. That motion is not worth the paper it is written on because neither the Government, nor its partner in government, Fianna Fáil, have done anything about its implementation. This is another failing of the political establishment in the State.

What can be done for the survival of post offices? Community banking and ensuring social welfare payments are paid out through the network have been mentioned. In 2011, Deputy Ó Snodaigh called on the Minister to use the post office network to pay for all 80,000 State community scheme payments. If this happened, it would have an effect on ensuring their survival.

It is in the hands of the Minister and Fianna Fáil to ensure our post offices are protected

Photo of Seán KyneSeán Kyne (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Like many of the Deputies this evening, I pay tribute to the postmasters across the country for the service they have given over many years.

In April this year, An Post announced its renewed vision for the post office network which centres on the availability of new services in a modernised and revitalised network. The announcement was supported by an agreement reached between An Post and the Irish Postmasters Union, IPU, executive following months of intensive negotiations. It was subsequently endorsed by 80% of IPU members. The IPU agreement represents a necessary first step in reinvigorating our national post office network and making it a viable, sustainable, modern and vibrant network for the future, capable of adapting to the changing environment in which it operates by providing a service that meets the needs of communities across the country, particularly in rural areas.

In its negotiations with An Post, postmasters sought both the modernisation of the network and a voluntary redundancy package for those who wanted to leave the business. Some of those have now taken the decision to leave and it is important that these decisions are respected. They have not been taken lightly or without good reason. There are several reasons that postmasters across the country are availing of this offer including age and low population levels, as well as the fact that some postmasters are not even earning the minimum wage as a result of declining transaction levels and mail volumes.

An Post has advised that where a post office closes, 70% of the business transfers to a neighbouring office. The reality is that by facilitating those who wish to exit the business, neighbouring offices are further supported thereby ensuring a more sustainable network for the future. As part of its strategy for modernising the post office network, An Post has established a dedicated business unit within An Post, An Post Retail. Investment of €50 million in the network by An Post, which is equivalent to €45,000 per post office, is about getting communities to use the enhanced services in their local post office that will be provided through a modernised network.

Additional services that An Post proposes to introduce through the network include a better range of Government services, financial services and e-commerce services for shoppers and small businesses. There is already a rapid expansion of banking services happening with the smart current account and enhanced foreign exchange facilities. Post offices will have credit card services and will be able to provide loans to small business and personal loans. An Post is committed to ensuring that our post offices will be equipped with the range of services that will attract and retain footfall. However, these measures are meaningless unless the public uses the services provided.

There has also been an expansion of postal services in the past two years. An Post vans can now be seen in rural communities on Saturdays. That is because An Post now provides a parcel service to every rural townland six days a week. There was a concern several years ago that we would not be able to retain the five-day service.

Agreement with the IPU removes a level of uncertainty that has existed as a result of the piecemeal approach associated with closures of post offices for the past 30 years. The IPU has publicly acknowledged that. An Post has given a pledge to retain a post office network right across the country. However, we must of course be cognisant of the declining transactions in recent years that reflect the reality of the world we live in today. We must equip post offices with a range of services that will attract and retain footfall. Those measures are meaningless, however, unless the public uses the service the post office provides.

Government business is the backbone of the post office network. The National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, service in respect of State savings and the social welfare contract are the two big financial drivers for the overall network. In April this year, the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection renewed her Department's contract with An Post to provide pensions, child benefit and other social welfare payments at post offices.

While the Government's policy is to offer Government services online, there will always be a segment of the population which is not comfortable or proficient accessing online tools or services. The post office network is the obvious choice as the offline gateway for citizens with its nationwide network and existing strong relationship with offline citizens. Government funding of €80,000 has been allocated to roll out a pilot scheme for digital assist which will see ten post offices equipped to help citizens with online Government interactions. Government approval has been secured to explore how further services might be made available to our offline citizens. This would be delivered via a centralised procurement framework. A working group comprising representatives across Departments will be established to consider this issue and will report back to the Government by the end of year.

Standing still is not an option. If, politically, we tread water or if we shirk decision-making, we will not have a stronger post office network. Instead, we will have a weaker one and, potentially, ultimately we will have no post office network at all. The Minister is determined to embrace change because change is required to deliver for post offices and a postal service for the future. Change is especially required in rural areas. There is widespread acceptance that the post office network requires modernisation to build, maintain and protect a service that meets the needs of communities across the country today and into the future.

While much has been achieved in An Post over the past two years, there must be a clear focus on continued delivery for the future. That is critical to ensuring the long-term success of the national postal operator and a sustainable post office network to serve future generations.

It is important also to restate that any individual, group or representatives concerned about a decision can apply to have An Post's decision reviewed through a new independent review process. It is a completely independent process. The closing date for receipt of appeals has also been extended to 31 October, which gives the groups, communities and businesses the maximum chance to put forward an appeal to allow it to be individually adjudicated on.

Having worked with the Minister, Deputy Naughten, for the past two years, I know the commitment he has to ensuring the viability of An Post. We have had darker days in terms of the future of the company. We have had debates in this House about increasing the price of stamps, etc., to ensure the viability of the business. We have seen that turned around to a degree with the parcel delivery service with six-day deliveries, when we were concerned we would not be able to keep vans on the road for five days to deliver ordinary mail.

An Post has a plan and a vision to secure its future and to secure the maximum number of rural post offices. That is what this is all about. We can have a scattering of very small post offices that are not viable and will never be viable or we can try to consolidate the network and ensure the viability of the maximum number of post offices in urban and rural areas.

9:40 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin has the final ten-minute timeslot to be shared among Deputies Tóibín, Stanley and Buckley.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Tóghfaidh mé dhá nóimeád.

I visited a number of rural towns in my constituency last week. The first one I was in was Kildalkey where secondary school children have to walk ten minutes along a windy road, wearing high-vis jackets, first thing in the morning because the Department of Education and Skills took their seats on the school bus from them.

I was also in Collinstown on the first day the post office was closed. I was told by the person in the only remaining shop in that village that their profits and turnover that day were radically down.

I was also in the village of Clonmellon. It has a lovely broad street with beautiful old houses but only one in three of them is currently occupied. One bus rolls into and out of that village every day but that cannot be guaranteed.

I then went to Rathmolyon where I had organised an An Post save our post offices meeting. It was really well attended. People told me it would cost them €35 to get a taxi from their village to the next shop to collect their pension. In one day they were going to spend nearly 20% of their income just getting their income. As I drove home in the dark from that meeting, I realised Fine Gael is ripping the fabric of rural Ireland apart. In 20 years' time we will have 50% of the population living in Dublin city. This is an outlier in European terms. I do not know of any other European country where its capital city is so dominant. We will have a city state in this country. That not good for the people of Dublin because Dublin is overheating. People cannot get houses, they cannot get their children into schools and the streets are congested. The Government is even talking about taking water from the Parteen Basin on the River Shannon so that the people in Dublin can have water.

What we need in this country is proper spatial delivery, which we do not have. We are currently rudderless. It is incredible. A critical mass of footfall into these towns and villages is necessary so that other shops and businesses can function. If the post office is taken out of them, there is no way they can function. This is only the tip of the iceberg. The truth of the matter is that I met An Post and it told me that 500 post offices in this country were not economically viable. An Post sought 230 closures and it only got 159. It is a nonsense that the Minister would say that the pension decision of an individual postmaster should determine whether a whole town or village has a post office. A postmaster can make such a life decision and I am not questioning that but the Minister cannot let that be the decision of whether people can have a functioning rural society in which to live.

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I commend Deputy Brian Stanley on bringing forward this motion, which I urge the House to support. The Minister, Deputy Naughten, and the Minister of State, Deputy Kyne, both surprisingly said that it is important to remember that when a post office closes 70% of the business transfers to a neighbouring office, but the knock-on effect of a post office closure is that 100% of that service is lost in the community. It simply does not make sense.

The 2011 census of population found that 40% of lone pensioner households in rural areas did not own or have use of a car. Closing local post offices for the sake of trying to save a few euro while forcing people to travel where there was virtually no public transport is a very cheap trick.

We are talking about 159 post offices. One such closure is one too many. Twelve post offices are to close in County Cork, the knock-on effect of which will be that 34 towns and villages in those areas will be directly affected. I find it ironic that the nearest post office for those living in Rockchapel in County Cork will be in Brosna in County Kerry. That is very strategic planning. It must be extremely frustrating for our elderly and disabled throughout the country.

This affects the people in rural areas but, in terms of the service a post office provides, in one's post office one talks to one's postmaster or postmistress. They help one with filling out forms. That is gone. Paying €5 off the ESB or any other bill is now gone. We are losing services.

Another issue is rural isolation. The post office was probably the last remaining local hub because the Garda station and the pub are gone and now the post offices and shops will possibly be gone. For some people living in rural areas, the post office might be the only point of one-to-one human contact they might have once a week, if they are lucky, or once a month. One does not realise the detrimental knock-on effect in terms of what will happen rurally when this service, which is a public service, ceases. The Minister mentioned earlier that one post office made nine social welfare payments. It does not matter how many it made. It was providing public services. That is what post office are supposed to provide.

The Minister is closing down rural Ireland and I can tell him that the loneliness experienced by older people and those who are disabled can kill. He should remember that.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister needs to get the message here tonight that he is not a bystander in or a commentator on these matters. He is the shareholder on behalf of Joe and Mary public, the citizens of this State.

Many proposals have been put forward on what should be done. Over the past two years, I, on behalf of our party, Sinn Féin, and my predecessor, the former Deputy Michael Colreavy, have put forward many sensible proposals on the expansion of services, community banking and co-location. We have been very open in recognising the need for flexibility and change. However, the Government amendment calls for the Government services to stay in the network but it is not getting the additional services recommended such as motor tax renewals, rates payments, etc. It has ignored those. It also calls for an additional service to ensure the network's viability. The Minister said that 17 out of the 19 recommendations in the Kerr report have been implemented. I have some of them in front of me that have not been done. I refer to the network renewal, a basic payment account, motor tax, a financial service strategy and credit unions, with the exception of a pilot scheme.

Despite the commitment in the programme for Government, that has not happened. The political will has been lacking, and this is the key issue. In its amendment, the Government calls for a proposal to ensure that An Post services are appropriate in the areas where the 159 postmasters are retiring and to take into account the potential for co-location. I take it that the Government also questions the current criteria.

I made the point earlier today to the Minister that the issue of retirement should not equal closure. Just because somebody is retiring from a business or a job does not mean the factory should be closed down. That is just a convenient way of doing it.

I want to revisit the definition of a settlement with the Minister. I refer to settlement areas with a population of 500. What about the town of Geashill in County Offaly? That town has 500 citizens living within its environs or very close to them. Another such town is Ballybrittas in County Laois. Moneygall, on the southern tip of Offaly on the border with Tipperary, needs to be looked at again. Those are three post offices that are up for closure.

Photo of Denis NaughtenDenis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is why we have the appeals process.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois, Sinn Fein)
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If the Minister is extending the deadline to 31 October, what happens to the post offices that are due to close before that date? What about those that have already been closed? In County Laois alone, we have Ballinakill and Ballybrittas. Crettyard was lumped in with Carlow but it is actually in County Laois. However, we will not split hairs on that. In Offaly, we have Geashill, Moneygall, Mount Lucas, Pullough and Walsh Island. They are substantial communities and these closures will be a huge loss to them.

The Minister has not committed to community banking.

The banks have withdrawn from rural Ireland and what the Minister is proposing will allow the pillar banks to use the post offices to provide limited services, but the pillar banks will withdraw the profits from them. These are the pillar banks we bailed out. We need to put in place either the Sparkassen or the Kiwibank model where the profits are reinvested in the local community or into government services in rural areas. The Kiwibank model is the option in New Zealand and the Sparkassen model is used directly by local government in regions of Germany.

The whole process of reform of the post office network has been like watching paint dry. It has been like a slow bicycle race over the last seven years. It has been grinding on and on. The Oireachtas committee looked at this early in the last term of the Dáil and it has been grinding on since then. I have to agree there has been inaction on this for decades. There was clearly a need for quick action in the years 2012 to 2014 but that did not happen. Here we are still watching the slow bicycle race taking place. We are looking at the definite closure of 159 post offices, with one more mentioned tonight, and there is the likelihood of another 230 post offices which have not been offered a new contract. This affects the most marginalised rural communities. The Minister must remember it affects the most marginalised people within those communities. It is those people who are elderly and those who are on the smallest incomes who will be hit hardest. I have heard people say someone can get a taxi and do a round trip to a post office within 15 km. However, that would be the first €30 gone out from a pensioner's income as a taxi would cost €25 or €30. That must be borne in mind.

I also ask the Minister to bear in mind that people over the age of 70 are having huge difficulty in getting car insurance and I know many older people in rural areas who can no longer drive. This matter requires a hands-on approach. The Minister is not a bystander in this but is representing the public in this regard. He is the sole shareholder and he needs to get a grip on this to stop these closures.

Amendment put.

9:50 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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In accordance with Standing Order 70(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Thursday, 20 September 2018.

The Dáil adjourned at at 9.05 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 19 September 2018.