Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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41. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection when she plans to initiate the Social Welfare, Pensions and Civil Registration Bill 2017, which the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection facilitated on 31 May 2018 (details supplied). [26529/18]

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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75. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection the progress of the Social Welfare, Pensions and Civil Registration Bill 2017; the reason for its delay; her plans to provide protection for workers in defined benefit schemes in the future; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [26583/18]

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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This is to ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection when she plans to progress the Social Welfare, Pensions and Civil Registration Bill 2017, which the Joint Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection facilitated on 31 May 2018 at the request of the Department. The heads of the Bill were brought in on 9 May, including defined benefit, DB, protection to particular areas. It was published on 6 July. There have been numerous stops and starts and we are still waiting. It was an affront not to have that legislation before the committee on 31 May after all indications had been given that it would be there.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 41 and 75 together.

Second Stage of the Social Welfare, Pensions and Civil Registration Bill 2017 concluded on 4 October 2017 and Government approval to draft provisions for a number of additional items to be included in the Bill on Committee Stage was obtained from Cabinet. These provisions are currently being finalised by the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. They include, among other matters, provisions related to defined benefit pensions and measures related to the General Data Protection Regulation, GDPR.

A key priority for the Government is to provide additional protections for scheme members’ pension benefits. However, it is essential that any new measures recognise the current pension landscape in Ireland so that a balanced, proportionate approach is developed and that unintended negative consequences do not arise. Under existing pensions law, there is no legislative obligation on the employer to make contributions to a scheme. However, the provisions of this Bill will introduce a new regime into the Pensions Act 1990 which will, among other things, enable the Pensions Authority to make a funding obligation direction specifying payments to be made by a sponsoring employer to the pension scheme where no agreement was reached, within a specified time period, to resolve a funding deficit.

In order to achieve a balanced approach it has been necessary to consult with and obtain numerous legal advices from the Office of the Attorney General in respect of the DB provisions. The Bill was provisionally scheduled for Committee Stage on 31 May. This has been postponed to allow for the finalisation of the necessary Government amendments. These provisions are quite technical and complex. However, work is at an advanced stage and when complete an early date for Committee Stage will be requested from the committee.

Finally, many of the provisions contained within the EU directive on institutions for occupational retirement provision, IORP II, will also support positive reform of the Irish occupational pensions sector. Implementation of the directive will require legislative changes and my officials, together with the Pensions Authority, are working on the transposition process to ensure that the necessary amendments to existing laws, regulations or administrative provisions will be made to give full effect to the directive.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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Over a year is rather a long time to check that all the t's have been crossed and the i's have been dotted. I know it is important legislation. Thousands of workers are waiting for it to come through for some protection. Irish Life workers in a scheme that is healthy are potentially affected by their defined benefit scheme being wound down. There is also Ryanair and Independent News and Media. This was flagged last May in the heads of the Bill in respect of the two areas, the 12 months' notice to trustees from the bosses to cease contributions, and provision that if trustees and employer cannot agree a funding proposal, the Pensions Authority would intervene and set a contribution schedule. Many workers saw that as a protection and they are hugely disappointed. It is disgraceful that over a year later we are still waiting for the legislation to come through.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I invite the Minister to respond.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Can I come in?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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If you so wish, yes.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is why I am sitting here. I could have watched it on the TV otherwise.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Hold on, let us be clear.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thought I had a right to come in as I was being grouped with Deputy Joan Collins.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Hold on until you understand, Deputy Smith.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I do not.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The normal thing is that Deputy Joan Collins asks her question and has her supplementary and then Deputy Bríd Smith would ask hers and have her supplementary. If the Minister is prepared-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is fine. I did not realise.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Far be it from me to deprive you-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thought you were forgetting about me.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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How could I? Deputy Smith may combine her question now and she will also have a supplementary.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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It is all about equality.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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My question is very similar. The real tragedy here is that we are missing an opportunity to do what they do in Britain and elsewhere in Europe and that is to put manners on companies that are in very good health when it comes to their pension schemes yet decide to move workers off defined benefit and onto defined contribution schemes. That is exactly what is happening in Irish Life and it has happened in Independent News and Media and AIB. It is a money grab by these companies. They are not struggling. They are not underfunded or in trouble. What they are trying to do is offload what would be very good futures and healthy pensions for workers so that they maximise their profits.

That is what is missing from this tiny little amendment to which we have been reduced. Has the Minister been lobbied by Irish Life, Ibec or any of their representatives to reduce what was substantial to something very minimal? The provision has been watered down very substantively and I do not believe it will return to the original proposals that the Minister made. Has there been any lobbying on behalf of the pension companies, Irish Life itself or Ibec?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I can categorically say "no", but I am not sure to what the Deputy is referring. Nothing has been watered down. The amendments have not been drafted. I do not know what the Deputy is referring to or what she is holding in her hand. What we released in the heads of the Bill are currently being drafted in amendments. There are no changes, no lessening, no meetings with anybody.

I have to put on the record that my husband works in Irish Life but he works in IT. I have not been lobbied by anybody in Irish Life. To my recollection, I meet Ibec regularly but it is usually with regard to the Employment Bill and not this particular Bill. I will have to check my records but I do not recall having been lobbied on this particular Bill. Let me be very clear; it would not make a blind bit of difference to me because the intentions are set. They are clear. They were set a year ago, as Deputy Collins has said.

Yes, we are all waiting for the amendments. I am awaiting them as eagerly as the Deputies are. I am told they are very close to being finalised. I am also told they are very complex. When we talk about pensions people put on that kind of pinchy face as if it is complex and most people do not understand it. What I understand is that the obligations and objectives of this legislation are to ensure there is a set of rules that is fair to both the employers and employees in defined benefits pensions going forward. The sooner we get the amendments and get to Committee Stage the better for all of us.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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With all due respect, there are no persons more eager for these amendments to come through than the workers themselves whose pensions are being attacked in healthy funds by companies that can well afford to keep defined benefit pensions going.

It is a money grab by many of these companies. The Minister is awaiting the amendments. When it was published on 6 July, the Bill did not include any amendments relating to defined benefit schemes. This is why people are concerned that it is not on the agenda and has been pulled by the Department or the Minister. This needs to be brought in quickly. The workers in Irish Life are eagerly awaiting the introduction of this measure so there would be some sort of protection for them. It was very remiss of the Department and the Minister not to have brought this in even more quickly than has been the case.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I do not think I argued that the heads of Bill were cast iron but I do think they were more elaborate than what we have. I know the Minister said it is complex and we all pinch our faces when we talk about pensions. I probably do more than pinch my face because I do not have a great understanding of them not having been involved in a pension scheme to date. It cannot be as complex to do something in Ireland that has already been done in Great Britain and across Europe, which is to protect workers in defined benefit schemes from being pushed into defined contribution schemes by companies that are completely solvent and that are in fact very healthy. Other Deputies have named these companies, as have I, and other Bills have been submitted by Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and Labour that would do the same job but have been held back because the Government Bill goes forward. It is being delayed to the point of utter frustration and probably huge disappointment on the part of workers. Since the Minister's husband works there, the Minister will know that this is the biggest pension organiser in the country. If it gets away with this, it is leading by example and so will the 110 other schemes that control defined benefit.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Could I be very careful with language? I ask the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to give me a teeny bit of latitude if I ramble on. No one is getting away with anything. What is happening in Irish Life is entirely legal so no one is getting away with anything. Second, we do not have the proposed amendments. What we have are the draft heads of a Bill. We do not have the amendments yet. This is what we are all anxiously awaiting with me being first in the queue. If and when the new legislation is enacted, it will not stop what is happening in Irish Life because it is currently legal. All that will happen is that a scheme will have to give a minimum notice period of 12 months before the contributions can be stopped. That is the only thing that will happen. Irish Life gave well in excess of 12 months' notice so even if the legislation were passed, it would still not be breaking the law.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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However, it gives other parties the opportunity to put forward amendments.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister, without interruption.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure what the people who are contacting Deputy Bríd Smith are expecting.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Let the Minister reply. The Deputies might not like the answers but-----

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We will have that when the amendments are dealt with on Committee Stage and we can have a look at them, but the proposals in the heads of Bill seen by Deputy Bríd Smith beforehand will not stop what is happening in Irish Life because Irish Life is not doing anything illegal. If the new legislation were passed, the only change is that it would be obliged by legislation to give a 12 month notice period, but it gave in excess of that anyway.