Dáil debates

Thursday, 3 May 2018

Ceisteanna - Questions - Priority Questions

JobPath Programme

10:30 am

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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1. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection the details of the recently announced changes to the JobPath scheme; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [19262/18]

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection the effect the recently announced changes to the JobPath scheme will mean for new and existing JobPath participants who wish to move to other schemes; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [19487/18]

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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As the Minister is aware, I recently published legislation proposing the change she is introducing; naturally, therefore, I welcome it. I tabled the question to allow her the opportunity to flesh out the details of how it will operate in practice.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

As the Deputies may be aware, I recently announced that clients of my Department who were engaged with the JobPath service would from 1 June have the option of applying for community employment scheme and Tús placements while continuing on with their JobPath programme. This will ensure jobseekers can benefit from the job seeking support of the JobPath service, while also availing of a part-time work placement which we so value provided by the Tús and community employment scheme organisations. This will have a number of benefits, both for the vital services provided at a local level by participants in community employment scheme and Tús programmes and directly for the Department’s clients. It will, in particular, enable those people with the JobPath service to not only continue to receive the personalised employment counselling and job search support provided by their JobPath personal advisers but also to avail of a Tús or community employment scheme placement which will provide valuable occupational activity and work experience.

In making this change I was particularly conscious that case managed employment counselling and support had been shown internationally and here in Ireland, based on evidence, to be the most effective means of supporting people back into sustained employment. I did not wish people to cease participation in this type of service in order to take up a place on a part-time State employment programme. The decision I have made enables people to benefit from both supports available from the State. In taking the decision I was also conscious that the resource constraints that had informed the Department’s policy had thankfully abated somewhat. In the past the Department operated a one-person-one-place policy in order to ration the available places among jobseekers. We are all aware that we had far too many of them at one point. Given the welcome improvement in the labour market, with the unemployment rate now down to under 6% this week, which is great, this policy can be relaxed slightly.

The JobPath service will be adapted to cater for those who opt to take up a Tús or community employment scheme placement. All meetings and activities will be scheduled to take account of scheme commitments. For example, if a person is committed to participating in the community employment scheme five mornings a week, any JobPath meeting and other intervention they may have will be scheduled for the afternoon, obviously with his or her agreement. The JobPath companies will continue to provide all of the supports they provide for the people with the JobPath service. Community employment scheme and Tús providers will not have to make changes to their operations. They will continue to advertise their jobs for which people with the JobPath service can now apply. The administrative procedures to enable this change to be implemented are being finalised in my Department. That was why I could not announce it with immediate effect and needed a couple of weeks to change the IT systems. It will go live on 1 June. I hope that clarifies the matter.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for her response. Did I understand her to say that if somebody was in the JobPath system, a vacancy occurred on a Tús or community employment scheme and he or she took up the place, he or she would have to continue with the JobPath service until the expiration of the 12 month period if he or she had already started? The Minister made reference to rearranging schedules, etc. to ensure a person could do both. Has she had talks with the JobPath companies about this? Is she satisfied that it will be possible to accommodate meeting people's JobPath and community employment scheme commitments simultaneously?

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On the basis of the statement made by the Minister when announcing this change a number of weeks ago, it seemed to be a positive story, so much so that Fianna Fáil was very quick to jump in and claim credit for it.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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We had published a Bill.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On reading the details and having listened to the Minister, it is clear that the problems experienced by people locked into JobPath will continue. We know that underemployed persons are being actively targeted to join the JobPath programme. We are being told that people locked into JobPath can participate in Tús and community employment schemes, but they will be treated in the same way as someone in a part-time job. It does not deal with the mandatory nature of JobPath, which is the crux of the problem. We have people participating in Tús and community employment schemes, which is welcome, but they will have to engage in two separate schemes.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have another question. Obviously someone participating in a community employment scheme can avail of education to upskill. People are being actively targeted by JobPath to enter full-time employment as per the terms of reference; that is what they are supposed to be doing. What happens to a person who is engaged in an education course under a community employment scheme for a major award? There will be pressure from JobPath on that individual to leave the community employment scheme and enter full-time employment.

What provisions are being made in that regard?

10:40 am

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I do not like to interrupt, but the Deputy will have another minute in which to ask a question.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for their questions. I have not seen Deputy Willie O'Dea's Bill, but I know the gist of what he wants to achieve. I thank him for bringing it forward. It is not that I am giving him all of the credit, but, as I have stated here a number of times, I am not the only person who can come up with a good idea and I am very happy to listen to anybody who comes up with good ideas and give credit for them. This was something that needed to be done and the timing was just right. I acknowledge the work the Deputy has done in that regard.

While there are always anecdotes that will give the lie to something, the current JobPath programme is mindful of a person's circumstances. For example, if a person had caring duties in the morning, his or her JobPath appointment would have been made for the afternoon and this should be no different. If I thought people were being forced to come in at 9 a.m. when it did not suit them, as opposed to coming in at 10.30 a.m., I would have a big concern, but that is not the reality. The reality is that we work with people who come voluntarily to claim as jobseekers and make a commitment to work and engage with the State's services to either undergo training or work. I expect JobPath to continue to be as flexible as it is with other clients and make arrangements for the scheduling of appointments and activities outside people's community employment scheme arrangements.

Photo of Willie O'DeaWillie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for her comments. I am not claiming all of the credit but merely adverting to the fact that we published a Bill. The terms of our Bill did not envisage people being forced to participate in two schemes at the same time, although I can see arguments for and against. What worries me slightly in the Minister's response is her aspiration that there will be flexibility and so on. That needs to be firmly tied down before 1 June because I can envisage situations, particularly in the education area, as mentioned by Deputy John Brady, where there could be conflict.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to get an answer to my original question. With no disrespect, the Minister is a little removed from the reality of the so-called flexibility she says JobPath advisers are giving to people, particularly the underemployed, as she likes to describe them. There are many examples such as teachers engaged in part-time work who the Minister's predecessor said needed to give up the hope of finding their ideal job and take up any job. There are people living in rural areas who are being told that if they do not come in on a Tuesday or Wednesday morning, their payment will be stopped. Correspondence sent in by participants has been ignored, including correspondence stating the person will willingly engage with JobPath but that he or she has no access to public transport and, therefore, no way of getting to the meeting. Correspondence has been ignored and penalties imposed. The reality is that there is no flexibility whatsoever. Will the top-up payments under the community employment scheme and Tús apply in these instances?

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The time is up.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister needs to deal more comprehensively with the issue of flexibility. There is simply no flexibility and this is not the solution. It is not Deputy Willie O'Dea's Bill-----

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The reality is that over 1,500 places on community employment schemes have not been filled because of the creation of JobPath.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy have any respect for the Chair? Will he, please, conclude?

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We that know that the number of rreferrals to the local employment service has been down consistently across the State since the formation of JobPath. That is the reality and the Minister is trying to mask the figures.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I have been more than flexible. The Deputy has taken up three and a half minutes. In fairness, there are guidelines set down which have to be adhered to. If I do not follow them, some of the Deputy's colleagues will not get to ask their questions. I am being very strict on time. It is not that I want to giving out to the Deputy, but will he, please, stick to the time guidelines?

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I will answer Deputy John Brady first as I missed his questions the last time. I am constantly intrigued by his choice of words - "actively being targeted", "claimed" or "picked on". When somebody loses his or her job and comes to us to sign up as a jobseeker and receive a payment of €198 every week, he or she signs a claim form, as well as a commitment form to work with the arms of the State to either retrain or gain work experience to get back into the workplace in order that he or she will only be on the jobseeker's payment for the shortest time possible. No one is forced to do anything. When people claim a jobseeker's payment, they come to the State and say, "I have not got a job and will take all and any help I can be given to help me to get a job." The language Deputy John Brady uses makes it sound like that we are the Gestapo, pulling people out of their houses on a Tuesday and forcing them to work when they do not want to do so. If somebody does not want to work, he or she does not have to claim a jobseeker's payment. There are tens of thousands of qualified adults who are not claiming jobseeker's payments because they are not looking for work.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The problem is that the focus is solely on getting people into work. It is not flexible enough.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The people who claim and commit to working with the arms of the State are looking for work and want help.

To answer Deputy Willie O'Dea, the programme is entirely flexible. It is not something that is to be newly introduced because it is already in place. To satisfy the Deputy's curiosity and my own, I will ensure both providers will continue to be flexible with people who take up community employment scheme and Tús places. Of course, anyone who takes up such a placement will receive the top-up payment. They are the rules.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Even though we had 13 minutes available to deal with those questions, we have gone way over time. To be fair to all Members, I cannot allow that to continue.