Dáil debates
Wednesday, 18 April 2018
Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)
Cabinet Committee Meetings
1:55 pm
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee F, national security, will next meet; and when it last met. [13847/18]
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee F, national security, last met; and when it is scheduled to meet again. [13849/18]
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet committee F, national security, last met. [16495/18]
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I would prefer to hear the answer first.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is a bit optimistic.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, together.
Cabinet committee E covers issues relating to the health service, including-----
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That was the previous group of questions.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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My apologies.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This one is about national security.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach cannot tell us about it.
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A Cabinet secret.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is a secret.
2:05 pm
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Some of it is. I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 to 8, inclusive, together.
The committee last met on 8 February and was attended by Ministers and senior officials from the Departments of Finance; Public Expenditure and Reform; Foreign Affairs and Trade; Justice and Equality; Health; Communications, Climate Action and Environment; Transport, Tourism and Sport; Housing, Planning and Local Government; and Defence. Arrangements are being made for the next meeting of the Cabinet committee but a date has yet to be finalised. The role of the Cabinet committee is to keep the State's systems for the analysis of, preparation for and response to threats to national security under review and to provide high-level co-ordination between relevant Departments and agencies on related matters.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach will recall in the immediate aftermath of the chemical attack in Salisbury, the Government made a number of announcements. One was to expel a diplomat in the Russian embassy. The Government also announced that weekend that it was undertaking a full security assessment of the risks Ireland faces from Russian activity in Ireland. Has that review been concluded? Is it still in train? How will the results of that assessment be conveyed to the House?
I will also ask about the concerns voiced at the time about the proposed size of the extension to the Russian embassy and the fact it was being built by Russian builders, all of whom were coming in here with work permits provided by Irish authorities. Has that concern been assuaged by discussions with the Russian authorities? Where stands that extension?
I will raise an important matter I have raised on a number of occasions. Have we as a nation determined, or has the Government determined, we should have a bespoke security agency bringing together the best expertise in military intelligence and in cybersecurity in the Department of Justice and Equality and An Garda Síochána? We are almost unique in not having such an agency. Is it time for it? Has the Taoiseach given consideration to establishing such an agency?
Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh agus arís gabhaim buíochas leis an Taoiseach as a chuid freagraí.
I will take this opportunity to raise the issue of Syria with the Taoiseach. On Saturday, the United States, Britain and France launched airstrikes there, which all reasonable and right-thinking people will find abhorrent, just as they would find abhorrent the use of chemical weapons by anybody. Such intervention is wrong and has represented a very significant escalation of tension in the region. The intensification of the military conflict is not a credible way to save Syrian lives. The deployment of more western forces in Syria or any further bombing will not bring an end to or shorten the conflict in any way. The international community has to be consistent in its application of international law and policy in which peace and protecting civilian life has to be the absolute priority. That holds for Syria, Palestine and all other conflict areas. There has to be a political solution. What we need to see in Syria is a lasting ceasefire and a political process to bring about the end of conflict. That is what the Government and all Governments should be seeking to do. Will the Taoiseach make this point and raise the issue with his counterparts in the US, Britain and France? Will he raise it at an EU and UN level?
On 27 March, the Taoiseach took the decision to expel a Russian diplomat based on British military intelligence. Only three days after he took that decision, 750 innocent Palestinian protestors were wounded by Israeli soldiers at a peaceful planned march in Gaza. Fifteen civilians were killed. Over the two weeks which followed, that death toll reached 31, with more than 1,000 injured, yet not one Israeli diplomat was challenged, much less expelled. Why the double standards?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach will be aware that since the Cabinet security committee last met, there appears to be a sustained cyberattack under way directed specifically against countries that have recently imposed sanctions against Russia. The reported targets go beyond general databases and extend to critical infrastructure. For example, it appears the British power grid has been attacked, as have various air traffic control systems. While there are parties here who seem to believe that Russia is an innocent bystander which has, at the very worst, been forced to behave like this, the majority are deeply concerned about what is going on. It is noteworthy that the Russian Government has acknowledged the behaviour of the cyberattack group, which was recently subject to US sanctions, though of course it also claims to have known nothing about its work. As I said before, a series of our national risk assessments have identified cyberattacks as potentially the most damaging risk to Ireland. The response has been highly complacent with no real sense of urgency.
Is the Taoiseach happy that the systems are in place to identify quickly any such attacks against our critical IT infrastructure and that we have in place the expertise to protect ourselves in such cases? Given the rising number of countries being targeted it seems unlikely that Ireland will remain untouched.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Howlin referred to a full security assessment of Russian activities in Ireland. I may be wrong but I am not aware of any such assessment being carried out. The Tánaiste may be aware of it but it is not something I am aware of being carried out. A security assessment was carried out on what diplomat would be expelled. That was the extent of it. We are not, to my knowledge, carrying out a wider security assessment of Russian activities in the State or with regard to the embassy. I understand the extension to the embassy will largely be used for accommodation for offices and also sleeping quarters for staff.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There are no issues with that as far as the Government is concerned.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I did not say there are no issues. There are always issues with any nation. In terms of establishing a bespoke security agency, which I imagine would be an Irish version of MI5, MI6, Mossad or the CIA, or something along those lines, it is one of the matters that the Commission on the Future of Policing, headed by Kathleen O'Toole, is considering. We are expecting its report in September. We will take it from there. On the face of it, it sounds like a good idea but when one looks at it more closely, there are definitely upsides and downsides. The transitional period would be quite difficult. We would have to legislate and transfer staff over from the Garda, military intelligence and other places. There would not be a straightforward period to move to that.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Which is like the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, was when it was pending legislation.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We would also need to consider the costs as well. There are quite a lot of people who describe themselves as security analysts and intelligence experts who regularly crop up in the newspapers and on the news. I imagine many of them would very much like us to spend a lot of money setting up such a body. No doubt there would be contracts to be awarded and all sorts of other things. I am cautious about it, to put it that way. We are a small, neutral country.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We should not be naive though.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am not entirely sure that we need to have something on the lines of a Central Intelligence Agency-----
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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What about Sweden, Belgium or the Netherlands?
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----or a KGB or Mossad. It is something that is being considered by the commission, and if it recommends it, we will certainly give it detailed consideration, but we would need to weigh up the pros and cons. I do not think it is necessarily or naturally the case that just because other countries have it, we should have it too.
In terms of Syria, the Government unequivocally condemns the use of chemical weapons and biological weapons by anyone anywhere in the world. What we see in Syria is a conflict going on for seven or eight years that has caused enormous distress and hardship for people in Syria. It has caused a humanitarian crisis. It also caused the refugee crisis which has impacted on other countries. Syria was a middle income country with a relatively high standard of living. It is very sad to see a country go so far backwards so quickly. I have had the opportunity to meet some of the Syrians who have come to live in Ireland as part of the refugee programme and to hear a little bit about their lives.
I met some of them when they came to the airport at Baldonnel a few weeks ago with the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy McEntee. When one talks to them it makes any problems one has pale into insignificance. We very much condemn the abuse of human rights and the denial of democracy by the Assad regime in Syria. We understand that the UK-US-France action was targeted at chemical facilities and that prior warning was given, as a result of which there were no civilian casualties. Ireland was not consulted about the operation in advance and our approval was neither sought nor given. We stand by the EU statement, agreed by foreign Ministers this week, that there is no military solution to the conflict in Syria. The intervention by outside powers, whether European powers, America, Iran, Turkey or Russia, will not bring this conflict to an end. What is required is a ceasefire and a peace process. We support that and are willing to assist in any way we can. We have troops with UNDOF in the Golan Heights, which is on Syrian territory, and in south Lebanon, so the Irish Government has an interest in the region. We want to support any peace process that might take place. Deputies will be aware that the current structure of the United Nations, which gives Russia and other countries veto powers, means the UN is largely paralysed in the context of acting in Syria, and that is a real difficulty.
I assure Deputies that we regularly challenge the Israeli Government and its diplomats about the occupation of Palestinian territories. The difference between what happened as regards the protests in Israel and Palestine and what happened in Salisbury is that the latter was an attack on EU soil and the violation of the sovereignty of an EU state.
I am happy with where we stand in respect of cyber attacks at the moment, though there is always room for improvement. I recently met the head of the National Cyber Security Centre, which is based in UCD and which we have been building up for a number of years. It is doing a good job in monitoring the situation and in preventing attacks, but it is having some difficulty recruiting specialists with the skills that are needed in this area. We will need to beef it up in the years ahead because cyber attacks will be a feature of security in years to come. The WannaCry attack did a lot of damage to the NHS but did not do a lot of damage to the IT systems in the HSE because it was more prepared to deal with the attacks than the NHS. That is not often the case but it was the case on this occasion.