Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan was in possession. Deputy O'Sullivan has four minutes remaining.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I would make the point first that we know the difference the redress schemes have been making to many but there are criticisms of it, for example, the way people are engaged with and addressed and there are particular difficulties also for those living abroad.

I heard the reasons for the extension but it is very frustrating for those who have been waiting so long. The entire process on the industrial schools, the laundries and the mother and baby homes involving all the investigations, reports and commissions, with more to come such as Mr. Shannon's report, the involvement of the UN special rapporteur, the technical report with the five options and now the collaborative forum and the selection panels, reminds me of those gifts we used to get of the Russian dolls. We think we are getting one but we realise as we open it up that there are more inside. That is like the process we have had with all these particular issues. There does not seem to be an end for the people who have been waiting.

However, I compliment the Minister on the choice of chair, Mr. Gerry Kearney, who I know from his chairmanship of the Moore Street consultative group. I am aware of his managerial skills, his way of cutting through to the essential points and the way he validated and respected everyone's contribution. From what I experienced, I believe his approach will be collaborative, inclusive and will get the work done in a timely way. It would be interesting if he could draw everything together at this stage, including all those outstanding issues for some residents such as housing, counselling and access to records, and prevent them from being obliged to take the legal route.

I refer to one particular group of survivors who now are friends. I have met them over the years and continue to be in touch with them. They are the mixed-race survivors. While they share the issues faced by other survivors, they had the additional issue of colour, which meant even more suffering for them. Their issues have not been specifically addressed in previous reports. Their admittance files to mother and baby homes list their colour under the section, "Defects". Their own research and campaign, and the self-disclosures they have made, record so much abuse towards them, so many awful moments and far fewer adoption opportunities for them. The cruelty towards them in the homes was not just by staff but by other children also because of their colour. I am asking for specific places for them in the selection panel and on the forum. I am reminded of a little mixed-race girl who was murdered by her foster dad in the 1960s. She was described as "a waif and a stray and a coloured one at that". I believe race has to be part of the terms of reference.

The residents are vital, and I have to question the ratio of survivors to academics. The selection process in terms of the academics has to be widespread, well advertised and transparent. I acknowledge the work of Professor Jim Smith, especially regarding the survivors in the United States. The forum and the panels must give advice in terms of the banished babies and the unmarried mothers who emigrated to the US in order that they are part of the collaborative forum and the selection committee. That diaspora survivor community has to be included.

There is a need for space for the survivors from institutions not covered by the commission's 17 institutions, and that means including St. Patrick's Guild and the apparatus associated with it.

I find it incredible that there will be a voting procedure on the five options. In an email I got from one of the groups, a survivor whom I know stated: "Whoever in God's name or anybody's name was there ever a consultation about what to do with human remains. We are distraught." I believe this is a matter for the State, not for the local authority.

When the Minister was speaking she made the point that it is nothing about us without us. That is the point that must be valued here, namely, it is the survivors who play the strong and dominant role in everything that is going on. It is very important to try to draw a conclusion that there be no more commissions and no more investigations. We have had most of them and there is a need now to draw a line under all of that and get into what the survivors need.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We now have a five-minute Government slot. I call Deputy O'Connell.

Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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When we were children - six of us growing up in rural Ireland in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s - our mother would threaten us that she would send us to Daingean if we did not behave. We did not know what happened in Daingean, which was about ten miles from my house in the midlands, but we had heard that behind its high stone walls, terrible things happened to bold children. We did not know that Daingean was just for boys or that it had closed in 1973. We knew nothing, but the threat alone was enough. My mother did not even know what happened in Daingean. She was only 25 when it closed, a married mother of two by then and marriage barred since 1970. When her youngest was nine she returned to full paid employment, having spent 26 years rearing children and giving us every opportunity and privilege she never had. As we got older, a spotlight began to shine on the darkest areas of Ireland, peering behind those high stone walls.

This particular Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes, to investigate these matters of significant public concern, cannot report soon enough. I welcomed the third interim report published by the Minister, Deputy Zappone, before Christmas. I am disappointed that the final report is now not due until February 2019 but I respect that the commission's request for an extension of a year before making its report was approved by the Government. It is, however, disappointing and frustrating for the former residents of these homes that yet more time must elapse before that truth emerges and one cannot but feel that from their perspective, justice delayed is justice denied. Time is running out for those women and children.

Many of these children are now well into their 60s, 70s and 80s and it is important to stress today that any further delays, beyond the one approved in December by the Minister, will be an insult to the commission process and to the former residents of those homes. It was deeply upsetting to read an article by Ellen Coyne in The Times, Ireland Edition, which reported well over a month ago that 17 elderly Magdalen laundry survivors with intellectual disabilities are still awaiting compensation from the State and others among their group have died while waiting for redress to be paid to them. I urge the Minister, Deputy Zappone, to ask the Minister for Justice and Equality to pursue a speedy resolution for the women and to enact the assisted capacity legislation as soon as possible.

Of the 14 institutions defined as mother and baby homes listed on the official commission website as "under investigation", five of them are based in my constituency of Dublin Bay South. It is estimated that more than 35,000 women and girls went through the nine major mother and baby homes, and that the Governments of the time paid for those women to be "cared for" while they were purged of the sin of childbirth.

It is important that Members of this House, both past and present, pause on occasion and check their privilege. I am not talking about the privilege and honour that comes from serving as a Deputy; I am talking about the privilege that so many people take for granted and remain utterly blind to, namely, the privilege of being born healthy and able-bodied to parents who either raised them themselves or gave them the opportunity to be raised by others. I am talking about the privilege of being wanted, loved and fed and reared in a safe and secure home. I am also talking about the privilege of being valued in a society that was practically designed for them to participate in as an equal, with the economic safety net of family and friends and with every opportunity available to succeed and grow. I remind all Members to check their privilege from time to time. Some of us may not notice the huge head start afforded to us by virtue of where, when, and to whom we were born.

My mother is 70 now and remains steadfastly unsurprised by the mounting revelations of the past decades. She often talks about girls in rural Ireland who never went to the homes but who had their babies at home. If they did not survive, they buried them quietly at the end of their gardens under an apple tree. The babies that survived home births to young girls were treated totally differently from other children. They were seen as lesser and made to know that too. There was little sign even then of a willingness to "love both", as the girls were judged too. That sexual apartheid was supported by laws and encouraged in an attempt to discipline communities. My mother is not an outlier for her generation. She has many friends her age with similar stories. They tell stories of only daughters, impregnated against their will in order to guarantee inheritance of their father's farm, or teenage girls cycling rattling bikes down dark, narrow roads, who were set upon by men. Those men never paid any price for their crimes while the girls paid dearly.

People might see this as washing our dirty linen in public, but I ask them to think of those 35,000 women who washed our dirty linen in private. People might resent hearing these stories, and they might deny that these things happened but these stories are true and they did happen. I very much welcome the statement from the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, and that of the Tánaiste, Deputy Coveney, in whose constituency Bessborough is based, who I hope will work with the Minister and the UN to consider the State's response to the legacy of the former mother and baby homes and to examine the progress being made.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The front page of today's edition of the Irish Examinerdetails the most recent comments of the tireless campaigner, Catherine Corless, on the discarded remains at the Tuam mother and baby home. Ms Corless, who has spent years doing work at her own expense that really should have been done by the State now finds her work hamstrung by the State, yet again, and this time she says money seems to be the problem. In fact, money has always been the problem when it came to these homes. Money was the whole reason they existed. The State abdicated responsibility for the homes because it would have cost money to take responsibility for all citizens. The State decided that it should outsource responsibility to religious orders or so-called charities to save the State money. That has left a legacy affecting generations. In saving money, it condemned thousands of children to a fate that does not bear thinking about. That desire to save money is what sent young boys to torturous hovels such as Letterfrack and Artane and this penny-pinching is what sent droves of young women, found wanting at some arbitrary moral altar, to the hellish mother and baby homes like Bessborough, Sean Ross Abbey, Bethany and of course Tuam.

In Tuam, the dedicated work of Catherine Corless unearthed the fact that the remains of more than 700 children had been discarded in what was basically a septic tank. They were dumped, thrown away and it was hoped they would be forgotten. But the penny-pinching by the State that led to such horrors, was a false economy. The damage inflicted on the young men and women who managed to survive those institutions has likely cost the State significant sums in various supports to try to help them cope with what they endured. For the want of funds, we are told that it is supposedly not possible to distinguish between the discarded remains in Tuam, to identify the causes of death and ultimately to identify the remains and to try to bring some semblance of closure to surviving family members. I do not accept that it is not possible to carry out the work. I recall that some years ago remains were unearthed during roadworks in Celbridge near the famine cemetery. The remains were brought to a facility in Collins Barracks and there was a tasteful reinterment of the remains. We were told the remains, which were significantly older than the ones in Tuam, were of a 50 year old man and a day old baby. We were also told what they died from and the conditions in which the 50 year old man had lived, including the food he ate. If it was possible to do that I refute the statement that we cannot deal with the very different situation that exists in Tuam.

At the time Catherine Corless made the initial revelations, I called for the scene to be declared a crime scene. If remains are unearthed where they should not be, that is what should happen. There is a need to bring in forensic anthropologists and examiners. That call stands and the work that needs to be done here cannot be neglected simply because the State, once again, is not prepared to uphold its responsibilities to the people left to the mercy of those institutions.

I deal with some women who were in a Magdalen laundry. Whatever torture they were put through, I find similar torture in terms of getting supports for them. It is not enough for the Government to come into the House and make an apology; there must be something to back up the apology in terms of meeting commitments. The reality is falling far short of what was understandably expected. The State must take full responsibility. A lot more must be done to address the situation in Tuam and to help the survivors of the Magdalen laundries and that must be done as a matter of urgency because many of those affected are at a point in their lives where they have little time to live out.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I welcome this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes. This is an extremely difficult and disturbing aspect of our country's past and it is important that we get to the truth. At the outset, I want to commend the Minister, Deputy, Zappone, and the Department of Children and Youth Affairs on their work. I welcome last December’s publication of the third interim report and I believe the Government’s decision to extend the time sought by the commission to be the right one. In my view, the public interest will be best served by allowing additional time for the commission to conclude all relevant lines of inquiry.

It is important that the commission is allowed more time to enable it to provide an opportunity for people who are waiting to share their experiences to do so. The fact that a number of support groups have also sought more time for the commission to complete its work is further evidence in support of extending the time period.

I understand that analysis of all relevant records will not be completed until the middle of 2018. All of the detail which will be uncovered during the investigation will play a vital role in providing a true reflection of the events and experiences of the time. With regard to the issue of extending the terms of reference into any further matters, I agree with the commission and the Minister that this approach would not be in the public interest at this time. It is important that the work currently under way by the commission is completed in order to establish what happened to women and their children in these institutions.

I welcome the Minister’s decision to establish a collaborative forum which will directly support and empower former residents who want to actively contribute to decisions on matters which affect their lives. As the Minister said last December and again during her contribution to this debate, the collaborative forum is an innovative participant-centered response to the theme of "Nothing about us without us”, which emerged from the facilitated consultations.

I agree with the Minister’s recognition of the necessity for sustained engagement with the former residents on a number of key issues pending the completion of the independent commission’s work. While separate to the work of the independent commission, a number of tangible measures will be developed and progressed in parallel to the independent investigation. I want to congratulate Mr. Gerry Kearney on his appointment as chair of the collaborative forum and wish him well in his work. I note that it is intended that the 20-member collaborative forum will meet on a monthly basis for a period of at least a year once it has been constituted, as outlined by the Minister.

The Minister previously indicated her commitment to invite the United Nations special rapporteur on the promotion of truth, justice, reparation and guarantees of non-recurrence to come to Ireland and reiterated this view in her contribution to this debate. I share the Minister’s belief that the special rapporteur can assist us in our efforts to get to the truth and can help us to map out how best to move forward in dealing with our past. In this regard, I welcome the Minister’s confirmation that an invitation has been extended.

I acknowledge the work of the international experts who produced a technical report advising of five options following the tragic findings in Tuam in March 2017. The appointment of such a team was essential to ensure any action taken on the site of the former mother and baby home was in line with international best practice. The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes is performing an essential role in getting to the truth about our tragic past. We as a country and a society have an obligation to get to that truth, and in order to get to that truth we need to allow those who have been affected so traumatically to give their experiences.

In conclusion, once again I commend the Minister, Deputy Zappone, and the commission of investigation on the approach they have taken on this most important issue. I look forward to completion and publication of the final report next year.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Today I speak on behalf of my mother and the many other women who went through mother and baby homes in the dark recesses of our past, a past which cannot be forgotten. Many women today live with that past and have to look to the future in order to get on with their lives.

Five years ago in this House, the then Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, made a promise to establish a memorial to the women of the Magdalen laundries. After five years, nothing has happened. As for the redress scheme, I note seven women have died without being compensated. Time is of critical importance as many women who went through mother and baby homes are growing older.

I understand a special event for Magdalen survivors will take place on 5 and 6 June in the Mansion House. One of the key recommendations from Mr. Justice Quirke in 2013 was that a gathering should take place. I ask the Minister to comment on whether the Government can contribute to or support the event.

The Justice for Magdalenes research group has expressed deep disappointment at the failure of the Government to contact survivors on its behalf. The research institute has asked the Department of Justice and Equality to contact survivors on its behalf in order to invite them to the event in the Mansion House because the Department is the only body which has all of the names. The 800 survivors will be able to discuss the best way to memorialise the past and deal with their future on 5 and 6 June.

One of the recommendations from survivors was that when a building in Sean McDermott Street is sold, some of the space should be used for public housing. It is a testament to the women who were brutalised by the church and State that their desired legacy is to leave something for the future for the many people who find they cannot get a home in the State today.

Is the Government supporting the event being held on 5 and 6 June? Can it contribute to or cover the costs for the many people who will attend? It is extremely important that it does so, given that in 2013 the then Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, said he would actively memorialise the survivors of mother and baby homes. Nothing has happened, which is an insult to the women who have survived. I acknowledge there has been a redress scheme but certain people have not received any redress. A memorial is essential because this is a part of the past that cannot be wiped out and which we should address in more ways than one.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak. I commend the commission on its work. However, I am very concerned about the delays. Many Members have referred to victims, but in my eyes they are also heroes for standing up and speaking the truth. More importantly, they are heroes for seeking the truth. What sticks in my craw is that there appears to be delay after delay.

Another Deputy mentioned torture. I can tell Members personal stories. A very good friend of mine was almost nine months pregnant when her job in Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork was cutting the grass at the front of the home on her hands and knees with a scissors. It took her 45 years to find her son. Too much has been covered up. There are problems with obtaining records and so on. One would have a better chance of emptying the Red Sea with a bucket with no ass in it than getting information. There are other issues.

I do not have a lot of time to speak but I strongly recommend that when the final report is published, a redress scheme be put in place.

It has been stated that the issue is one of money. I do not mean any disrespect to the Catholic Church or the Pope but if the Government can cough up €20 million for the Pope's visit, surely it can also look after its own people. What the church and State did to survivors, victims and their families is atrocious. I could use other words to describe this legacy but it would not be appropriate to do so in the Chamber. I cannot stress how tough this is for survivors.

I will give another example of a good friend of mine who was forced to face a wall while breast-feeding her child. She did not know why she was being forced to do so but she found out afterwards when the child was taken from her breast. It was then that her 45-year struggle commenced. This was atrocious behaviour. We would not do this to an animal. I appeal to all Deputies to reach a consensus on the need to at least recognise what the victims endured. We must not allow more of them to die. As Deputy Gino Kenny stated, seven more victims have died since the commission of investigation began its work.

Capacity issues are preventing 39 survivors from signing documents. When will the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act, which was introduced three years ago, be commenced? We are losing time and I find it insulting to have to tell survivors that my gut feeling is that the can is being kicked down the road. We would not do this to our parents or siblings. In that case, why should it be done to the survivors and victims? This makes me extremely angry.

With regard to the sites of former homes, there are rumblings concerning proposed development in certain areas. I am not opposed to development but these proposals should be thoroughly investigated. Three years ago, after attending an annual mass at Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork, I naively commented on lovely pink and blue balloons I saw as we walked towards the graveyard. Someone whispered in my ear that the balloons marked the site of unmarked graves for babies. That incident sticks in my craw.

If Deputies let down the survivors, we will not be fit to serve in this Chamber. Human beings cannot be treated like animals. The actions of the State and church in farming out children were disgusting.

I will refer briefly to another case involving a gentleman who returned to Ireland from Canada two years ago. He thought he was the only person in the world who had been extradited, so to speak, from the country as a child. It was only through social media that he found out about the mother and baby homes. Last year, he was knocked down and is now dead. He, too, was let down by the church, State and Government. Whatever happens, I appeal to the Minister not to allow another person to die.

We will fight this tooth and nail because the survivors have been let down. It is shameful and disgraceful. Next week, I will tell survivors that we hope to have good news. The least we can expect is that they and their families and friends will be treated with the utmost respect and an acknowledgement will be given that they stood their ground and told the truth. Their story is being kicked down the road and swept under the carpet in the hope that they will disappear. I do not want that to happen.

Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. If I may be so bold, I will speak on behalf of members of the Committee on Children and Youth Affairs and the Minister. It is only by chance that the Minister and members of the committee were able to make it to the Chamber for this debate because we had a meeting this morning on the important matter of the Department's Vote. This is wrong because statements in the House are important and the Minister and members of the committee should have been afforded the opportunity to attend for the entire discussion.

I remember following with disbelief the unfolding story of mass graves being found on the grounds of the former mother and baby home in Tuam. It would be remiss of me to make a contribution on such an important and sensitive topic without recognising the work undertaken by many people who strove over the years to give a voice to survivors and victims of acts that took place in the mother and baby homes. I acknowledge, in particular, the work done by Catherine Corless in bringing to light the incredibly callous treatment that has been unearthed at the mother and baby home in Tuam, County Galway. I am aware that Tuam is the home town of my colleague seated beside me, the Minister of State, Deputy Seán Canney. It is difficult to comprehend that so many babies were buried in Tuam and other locations, including those to which Deputy Buckley referred, in a manner that did not afford them even the slightest dignity. It is awful that these babies' graves were unmarked. It is horrific not to memorialise a child or any other person who has passed. That it was done by a religious institution with the knowledge of the State makes it even worse.

The full truth must be brought to light in the interests of justice for every individual who was a resident of or had a connection with the mother and baby home in Tuam. They must have their voices heard and must be given an opportunity to make their views known. In that regard, I welcome the ongoing work of the independent commission of investigation.

Society must not hide from the events that have taken place in this country, whether recently or in the long distant past. We must fully confront the treatment that took place in mother and baby homes under the watchful eye of religious orders and with the full knowledge of the State. The only way in which we can ensure all those affected are afforded protection is to respect them and provide them with the opportunity to have their voices heard.

I prepared extensive notes on the understanding that I would have more speaking time. I will attempt to condense my remarks and be as concise and precise as possible. The former Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, apologised in this Chamber on behalf of the State to the individuals affected by this issue, both historically and currently. The only institutions that have not apologised in a meaningful way are the religious orders. It is regrettable that the former custodians of morals in this State have not been Christian enough to apologise. Their failure to do so speaks volumes to me and several other Deputies who had the good grace to raise the issue with me this morning.

It is important to acknowledge that many members of the public who have been discussed in the House in the context of mother and baby homes in various locations, not only Tuam, do not want compensation. Some of them are perfectly entitled to compensation and I hope they will receive it but many of them simply want an apology. It is appropriate that the message Members of the Oireachtas send to those who are following the debate is that the treatment meted out with the full knowledge of the State was wrong. We must, through the good work of the commission of investigation, reach a conclusion on this matter and take appropriate and timely steps on the mother and baby homes in Tuam and elsewhere in order that the individuals who survived know that somebody cares. I trust the Minister and the Cabinet will do just that.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I regret that I was unable to attend earlier to listen to previous contributions. Deputy Farrell addressed this issue. I had an opportunity to make a statement when we commenced the debate during which I spoke about my feelings on this issue and identified some of the actions I have taken in response to the horrific findings in respect of the mother and baby home in Tuam and, more generally, the issues that continue to be raised in the context of the work of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby homes.

I will address a few of the points that Deputies raised during the sittings and add to them. Before I do, though, I listened to Deputy Gino Kenny. I acknowledge his mother's story and will reflect on it. In light of those experiences, it must mean much to her that the Deputy is able to be here today and raise the issue not only on his own behalf, but on behalf of his mother and many other Magdalen laundry heroes, to use the language of my colleague. I acknowledge the Deputy's comments about the event on 5 and 6 June. I am generally in favour of, and have spoken at length about, the importance of memorialising the mother and baby homes, which extends to other settings, including the Magdalen laundries. I will discuss the issues the Deputy raised with me with my colleagues.

I acknowledge that people have died since the commission was established and started its important and independent work as well as since my own Ministry started. I feel those deaths, as all of us do. I grieve for them. I am resolved that we will continue doing what we can to respond to the concerns and issues of survivors, heroes or residents of mother and baby homes.

Deputy Buckley expressed a number of stories from his own experiences. I hope that they will be shared with the commission's confidential committee, as it is out of such bearing witness that we will be provided with the best possible assessment of what happened across the board and, therefore, what we as a State have a responsibility to do. From the beginning of my Ministry, and particularly in light of my work with the people of Tuam, I have offered my personal apology for the horrific stories that I have heard from those who were residents in the homes. We know that the commission's findings will be painful. Both as a society and as a group of parliamentarians who want to ensure that justice is done, we need to listen to the full account of the commission's conclusion.

I appreciate the issues that have been raised today and previously about the delay in the turn-around, and not just because people have died. It is taking too long. For that reason and to the extent that I had the power to do so in my Ministry, I initiated a number of additional processes to complement the commission's work. Included in that is another form of facilitation in the form of a collaborative forum, whereby we are pulling together the representatives of people who have been in mother and baby homes and examining various issues. One of the issues that I want the forum to examine first and reach a consensus on is whether people require health and well-being supports and, if so, to make a recommendation to me on what can be done as soon as possible, perhaps even before the findings of the commission. This is one way of responding to some of the delay.

I could say many more things on this subject and I tried to outline a number of them in my opening remarks. Since we are approaching the one-year anniversary of the Tuam findings, I will say that the consultation process is under way and is based on the work of the technical group that I established to determine what options would be possible. There will be a public meeting in Tuam this month. Subsequent to that and the analysis of other forms of consultation, recommendations on what the stakeholders wish to happen will come to me. I hope that we can make decisions on those within the near future.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes statements on the third interim report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes. Níl obair ar bith eile le déanamh agus dá bhrí sin, tá an Teach ar fionraí go dtí meán lae.