Dáil debates

Wednesday, 24 January 2018

Other Questions

Naval Service Operations

11:05 am

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he will re-examine operations by the Defence Forces which support or interact with Libyan military or coastguard forces (details supplied); and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3370/18]

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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30. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence when the LÉ Niamh will redeploy as part of Operation Sophia following its return from deployment on 20 December 2017. [3348/18]

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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32. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the status of the Defence Forces involvement with Operation Sophia; the status of the LÉ Niamh; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3364/18]

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I seek an update from the Minister of State on what interaction, if any, the Defence Forces have, directly or indirectly, with the Libyan authorities, specifically the Libyan coast guard.

I have asked many times what the European Union programme that provides funding to Libya to hold refugees within its borders is doing to the large number of human beings who are fleeing desperate circumstances. Not only do we have an extremely dodgy relationship with the Libyan coast guard and its operations but it appears this relationship is being deepened and intensified. I ask the Minister of State to clarify the matter.

11:15 am

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 6, 30 and 32 together.

The European Union common security and defence policy Operation Sophia against human smugglers and traffickers is one element of an EU comprehensive approach to the migration crisis in the south central Mediterranean. Operation Sophia was launched in June 2015 as part of the European Union's broader action to provide a comprehensive response to the global migration and refugee crisis and encourage a democratic, stable and prosperous Libya. It specifically seeks to counter human trafficking and smuggling in the southern central Mediterranean by taking action against criminal networks and disrupting the smugglers' business model. The mission is also providing capacity building and training to the Libyan coast guard and navy and contributing to the implementation of UN Security Council Resolutions 2240 and 2292. These resolutions also authorise the interception of vessels suspected of being used for illicit activities and impose an arms embargo on Libya in an effort to prevent the flow of illicit arms and related material into that country.

The training being provided to the Libyan navy and coast guard as part of Operation Sophia aims to improve the security of Libyan territorial waters; enhance the capability of the Libyan navy and coast guard in law enforcement at sea; and improve their ability to perform search and rescue activities so as to save lives in Libyan territorial waters. Libyan coast guard training is a positive move towards capacity building by the EU mission. It is the fastest way to deliver effects in reducing irregular migrant flows and intercepting smuggler activity inside territorial waters.

A number of European Union initiatives provide assistance and protection to migrants in Libya, in particular, inside detention centres. Partner countries and organisations, non-governmental organisations and international agencies are working together with Operation Sophia and sharing their experiences on how to manage something that is difficult to manage from a humanitarian point of view. Bringing real improvements to the position of migrants in Libya will require restoration of political stability through the formation of a functioning government and a return to order throughout the country. Ireland supports both UN mediation and regional efforts in pursuit of stabilisation in Libya.

Ireland fully supports the current EU approach to the migrant crisis, including the deployment and operations under Operation Sophia. In July 2017, Government and Dáil approval was secured for the deployment of an Irish Naval Service vessel as part of Operation Sophia. The LÉ Niamhwas deployed on 6 October 2017 to join Operation Sophia and returned to Ireland on 20 December 2017. In the course of its deployment, the crew of the vessel were primarily tasked to respond to safety of life at sea events - search and rescue - in the area of operation. The specific tasks assigned to naval vessels by the Operation Sophia force commander depend on the operational requirements in the Mediterranean area at any given time.

Operation Sophia has so far contributed to the apprehension of 130 suspected smugglers and traffickers, removed the availability of approximately 520 boats from criminal organisations, contributed to almost 290 safety of life at sea events and rescued more than 42,400 migrants. An after-action review of the deployment on Operation Sophia is ongoing. The issue of any further deployment to Operation Sophia in 2018 will be considered in the context of the after-action review, the vessel requirements of Operation Sophia, the ongoing position in the Mediterranean and the overall EU response to the ongoing migrant crisis.

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Budgets from this country and across Europe are being used to fund a regime that has been described as holding migrants in militia camps in the most dreadful conditions. As stated previously, we are witnessing the return of slavery, with people being bought and sold at markets in Libya. These are human beings who are desperately fleeing war and poverty in other countries.

The Department is involved in training the Libyan navy and coast guard in rescuing migrants. I am proud of the record of the Naval Service in rescuing tens of thousands of migrants from the Mediterranean. However, these migrants are then handed back to the same regime that Human Rights Watch has shown to be guilty of the torture, rape, brutality and enslavement of a large number of human beings. Almost 1 million migrants are being contained in Libya. The treatment they are receiving is driving them out of the country, yet we are funding a programme under which the Naval Service provides training and migrants are handed back to the same authorities that brutalised them. While we have pride in our Naval Service, we must also be ashamed of the operation in which we are participating because it is returning migrants to brutal regimes.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Smith's statement is totally incorrect. All migrants rescued by the Naval Service are brought to a designated safe port in Italy. Naval Service vessels do not enter Libyan territorial waters. If the Deputy were to research this matter, she would note statements made by the current and previous Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Trade in which they expressed deep concern about the conditions experienced by migrants in Libya. EU Foreign Ministers adopted Council conclusions in July 2017 urging the Libyan authorities to improve humanitarian access to, and conditions in, detention centres and to seek alternatives to detention. At the October European Council meeting, the Taoiseach drew attention to the distressing human rights reports on Libyan reception facilities. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade continues to closely monitor the humanitarian position in Libya.

The Deputy is correct that some of the detention centres in Libya are totally acceptable. I watched a television programme recently on BBC or Channel 4 about detention centres in Libya. I reiterate, however, that all migrants picked up by the Naval Service are brought to a safe port in Italy and are not returned to Libya where they could be placed in detention centres.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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For the purposes of continuity, I ask Deputy Bríd Smith to make a second contribution, after which we will hear from Deputies Clare Daly and Mick Wallace.

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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While I am proud of the Naval Service and its role in rescuing tens of thousands of people, it is also helping to train the Libyan coast guard, which picks up migrants and returns them to Libya. Does the Minister of State understand my point? I am not arguing that the Naval Service hands over migrants directly to the Libyan authorities but that we are providing training and facilitating the return of migrants to one of the most brutal regimes in modern times. While it is welcome that the Taoiseach has raised this issue, in addition to giving out about it, we must ask why we are funding and participating in these types of operations.

To cite an EU publication, the ultimate role of the Libyan coast guard will be to co-ordinate all maritime search and rescue missions in the Mediterranean. Italy, Ireland and all other countries involved in training the Libyan navy and coast guard are moving towards a position where the Libyan coast guard is given full responsibility for all migrants found in the Mediterranean. Libyan border guards will then be provided with the information from all European border states around the Mediterranean in real time to prevent refugees from crossing into Italy and Malta. We will do anything but treat human beings with dignity. This reminds me of the contempt the Minister for Justice and Equality showed last night when he outlined the type of regime he wants to introduce to allow migrants to avail of their right to work. He showed utter contempt for these human beings.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I acknowledge the Deputy's view on this matter. The Taoiseach and the current and previous Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Trade have raised this issue on a number of occasions.

One can look at this in two different ways. One could opt not to train the Libyan coast guard and let these unseaworthy vessels leave the Libyan coast and thousands of people will drown in the Mediterranean.

11:25 am

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We could rescue them.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State, without interruption.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I gave Deputy Bríd Smith every opportunity to speak and I am addressing the question she asked. I am giving Deputy Smith my view and I have listened to her view. I fully appreciate her view and I take it on board, but I hope she will listen to my view as well.

We could opt not to train the Libyan coast guard, let these unseaworthy vessels leave the Libyan coast only to sink one, two or three miles out to sea and see thousands of migrants lose their lives, or we can train the Libyan coast guard, as we are doing, to try to stop unseaworthy vessels leaving the Libyan ports to ensure that these lives are not lost. I assure Deputy Smith that we are still saving the lives of migrants. It was stated in the House that we would not save the lives of migrants once we entered into Operation Sophia. The opposite has happened. We are still saving lives.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The Minister of State tells us that 520 boats have been destroyed, up from 480 the last time we asked. Over 42,000 migrants have been rescued. What the Minister of State has not addressed is the fact that many of those ended up going back on worse or more unsafe dinghies to try to escape Libya. What the Minister of State has not said is that many of them do not get to leave and are in effect imprisoned there in unsafe detention camps. They are subject to all of the abuse outlined by Deputy Smith and others. Not everyone is taken back to official detention centres. Some are sent to what are effectively illegal warehouses or makeshift dungeons, as they have been described.

We refer to sharing surveillance. Can the Minister of State respond on that point? It is known that information from European operations is regularly shared with the Libyan coast guard enabling it to intercept boats, including some in international waters, and push them back to Libya. European forces would not undertake such actions because they are illegal. However, they are facilitating the Libyan coast guard to do it.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Up to November 2017, a total of 201 Libyan personnel have completed training, comprising mainly basic training. The training has been delivered in formal classroom settings in Italy, Malta, Greece and at sea. An eight-week patrol boat crew training course was recently completed at the Italian naval school in Taranto. Training is being provided by various EU agencies and NGOs. Further training in Greece, Spain and Italy is planned for 2018. All persons are selected for training by the Libyan coast guard and are vetted by the EU.

I have stated to Deputy Bríd Smith that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade have raised the matter of these detention centres in Libya at EU Council level. I have stated that the Taoiseach drew attention to the distressing human rights reports on Libyan reception facilitates. I have seen them on television. They are not appropriate and they are wrong. We are very much aware of it. It is not that we are turning a blind eye to it. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Taoiseach have raised this at EU Council level. We have to see the fact that training the Libyan coast guard is about saving lives.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The Minister of State is missing the point. Obviously, it great that they are raising the matter but there is a major contradiction. While they are raising these matters verbally, Government actions are actually facilitating a situation whereby people are either being kept in Libya in detention centres or are being sent back there.

It is an extraordinary irony that we hear people throughout the European Union expressing their horror at Donald Trump's vision of building a wall between the USA and Mexico. The reality is that the tactics being adopted by the European establishment towards asylum seekers and refugees coming to our shores are worse, notably so because of the actions in Libya. We have thousands of kilometres of land borders, a military push-back against refugees at sea and billions of euro going to weapons companies and on border security. We are facilitating it. The Government says it is desperate to keep these people there, but it facilitates what is happening at the same time and that is not good enough any more.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Healy-Rae, sorry for interrupting your telephone call – my apologies.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will wait until Deputy Danny Healy-Rae is finished his telephone call.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Please continue, Minister of State.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Would I not be interrupting the telephone call?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Please continue.

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I would be glad to show Deputy Healy-Rae where the door is.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Healy-Rae may tell the person on the other end that I said "Hello".

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Come on, the clock is ticking.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I do not believe the assertions of Deputy Daly. She is leaving out one point. Deputy Daly is right on some parts, but what about the thousands of people who leave the coast of Libya but do not get far? They are losing their lives on unseaworthy vessels. That is one of the reasons we are training the Libyan coast guard. It is to stop some of these unseaworthy vessels. As part of Operation Sophia we intercept some of these unseaworthy vessels.

I take the views of Deputy Daly fully on board. Having said that, I reiterate that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade have raised this specific issue at EU Council level. I have raised the matter at EU Council level. I believe that by training the Libyan coast guard, we are doing the right thing.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Wallace, do you wish to ask a supplementary question?

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I have more than supplementary questions, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

The Minister of State will be aware that a House of Lords inquiry found that Operation Sophia failed to meet the objective of its mandate to disrupt the business model of people smuggling. Some smugglers were arrested and some boats have been destroyed but the people being caught are well down the food chain. It is like catching those going from door to door with drugs in Dublin, but not catching those who import the drugs and pass them on. The fact is that people are taking even greater risks now in inferior boats. The policy is not helping the matter.

The Minister of State makes the argument about training the Libyan coast guard. He should not forget that the Americans trained soldiers in Iraq who ended up joining jihadist groups. Some even fought against the peoples of the region. It was not a great idea. Getting into bed with the likes of the Libyan coast guard cannot be a good idea; it will only strengthen it. We cannot expect great things from it.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The EU takes a comprehensive approach. It is involved in capacity building in many countries, including Libya. We should be able to assist in helping the democratic instructions as peacekeepers, and that is what we are doing. Part of our peacekeeping approach is to help democratic institutions to become established. That is the way we are trying to do this. We are helping migrants but also training the Libyan coast guard.

Everyone is losing the point. Thousands of migrants are losing their lives within the territorial waters. They do not get beyond the territorial waters. Do we forget about those people, refrain from training the Libyan coast guard and let those who want to leave lose their lives? That is one of the points we are missing.

I take the word of the Deputies absolutely on the detention centres. The Government has raised this on numerous occasions at EU level through the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, myself and many others. This is a reality and a concern for the Government.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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People smuggling begins onshore. Nothing is being done to make these countries sustainable. Their economies are in bits, more often than not because of western interference. Does the Minister of State accept that? We had to listen to the Fine Gael Labour Party Government support the bombing of Libya in 2011. Does the Minister of State admit now that was a major mistake?

The manner in which NATO, with the support of our Government, bombed the living daylights out of Libya in 2011 was a crime against humanity. It was nuts. We completely destabilised that country and many of the subsequent problems in the Mediterranean, including all the lives lost, were linked to that war and the incredible damage NATO and western powers did. Does the Minister accept it was a mistake?

Does the Minister accept that Operation Sophia is now a military-focused operation? It was different and we used to play a different role but it is now a military-focused operation, designed more to keep people out than to save lives.

11:35 am

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I do not accept the Deputy's assertions and I definitely do not accept his assertion that Operation Sophia is a military operation. I accept that we are part of a different mission now. We were part of Operation Pontus, which was independent of ourselves, and we are now part of the EU-mandated mission. This mission operates under the triple lock and went through Government and the Dáil, as well as being mandated by the UN. It is not a military mission. We are still saving lives on the Mediterranean and will continue to do so. I am very proud of the work we did under Operation Pontus, as I am of the work we are now doing under Operation Sophia. There are different dimensions to the current mission, such as in the fact that we are training the Libyan coastguard and have people in mission headquarters.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Does the Government accept that it supported the bombing of Libya?