Dáil debates

Tuesday, 16 January 2018

Ceisteanna - Questions

Cabinet Committees

4:45 pm

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the newly formed Cabinet Committee G, justice and equality. [52726/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if Cabinet Committee G, justice and equality, has been established; if it has met; and when it is scheduled to meet again. [52881/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet Committee G, justice and equality, last met; and when it will next meet. [1839/18]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 7, inclusive, together.

Cabinet Committee G was formally established by the Government last week and is scheduled to have its first meeting on Thursday. The Cabinet committee will provide political oversight of developments on justice and equality issues, including implementation of the Government's programme of reform for the justice sector as well as Government measures on gender equality.

Establishment of a dedicated Cabinet committee will allow for a dedicated focus on the substantial reform of the policing and justice systems that the Government is determined to achieve. This will build on the work already completed or under way, including the establishment of the Policing Authority, which is overseeing implementation of the existing Garda modernisation and renewal plan.

4 o’clock

The Government expects to see further progress in the year ahead in areas such as civilianisation, a new divisional model of policing, improved information and communications technology, ICT, systems, and victim support services. The Government has also approved arrangements for a competition to recruit a new Garda Commissioner.

In addition, the Commission on the Future of Policing is due to report later this year and will no doubt make recommendations for further change. I intend that this committee will monitor its implementation. The committee will also ensure that further reforms are implemented in the Department of Justice and Equality and the Government will shortly finalise the terms of reference and membership of an independent change management group to follow through on this.

I expect that the committee will also consider reforms in other aspects of the justice system, and I have also indicated that it will pay particular attention to the Government's ambitious plans on gender equality and reform of the Judiciary, including the Judicial Council Bill 2017 and the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill 2017, both of which are before the House.

4:55 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Among the reform measures the Taoiseach has mentioned the most urgent goes back to the Toland report, the fundamental restructuring of the Department of Justice and Equality. It is important that the Taoiseach leads on this. What is his view because the Government's stated view is to have a division of functions within the existing Department, each reporting to a separate Secretary General whereas I think the strong view now is there should be two separate Departments? The Taoiseach said that the Constitution restricts us to having 15 Ministers but it does not restrict us to having 15 Departments of State. It is important to have a stand alone Department, ideally with a stand alone Minister for each but that might not be possible. We need to move fairly rapidly to that structural reform.

I am interested in the recruitment campaign the Taoiseach mentioned for the new Garda Commissioner. What salary scale has been approved by Cabinet for the new Garda Commissioner to be recruited?

I wrote to the Taoiseach in the past two weeks about the Kenneally case in Waterford and I have received an acknowledgment from him. I received a fuller reply from the Minister for Justice and Equality and thank him for that. I have been asked to ask the Taoiseach if he will agree to meet the victims of the convicted abuser Bill Kenneally.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It has been revealed that almost 50 additional boxes of files have been supplied in recent weeks to the Charleton tribunal. I know that is a result of the Taoiseach's directing that all relevant files be sent to the tribunal. I am sure, however, that he was surprised at the volume, and perhaps he was alarmed at revelations that some hearings of the tribunal had to be rescheduled because dozens of additional boxes were delivered from the Department of Justice and Equality. Does the Taoiseach acknowledge and accept that this reflects badly on the Department? It took his intervention as Taoiseach to get co-operation with this tribunal. Mr. Justice Charleton asked everyone to bring forward information to help him understand who did what, who said what, when and in what terms and who communicated with whom, by whatever means, and in what terms. This is a vindication of those Deputies who persisted in challenging the narrative from the previous Minister for Justice and Equality that the tribunal was receiving full support. Will the Taoiseach share his view on that with us?

I have tabled parliamentary questions on the resourcing of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, and I am waiting for replies. It was very striking that Ms Justice Ring has been unable to bring a single protected disclosure investigation to a satisfactory conclusion because of chronic understaffing. This issue has affected and contaminated this Government as it did the last one. GSOC is saying it cannot bring a single protected disclosure investigation to a satisfactory conclusion because it does not have the staff. Ms Justice Ring has also called for GSOC to be independent of the Department of Justice and Equality, to be answerable to the Committee of Public Accounts and the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice and Equality. She said GSOC has failed people who came to it to make protected disclosures and has warned that without resources, it would not be able to meet its central objective of ensuring that all investigations are conducted effectively, efficiently and fairly.

We spoke earlier about a whole-of-government approach. Is this issue of lack of accountability, of scandal, of allegations and so on, not by ordinary citizens but affecting them, and of allegations discrediting those who come forward, not at the root of the discomfiture, cynicism and disillusionment with public affairs and politics? The sum is relatively small, €900,000. It costs much more to set up tribunals and investigations. Does the Taoiseach accept that GSOC needs this funding and does he accept that this is another serious example of mismanagement by the Department of Justice and Equality which undermines public confidence in our system of justice?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Toland review is very pressing. Nothing has happened since 2014 on its fundamental recommendations vis-à-visseparation of units within the Department. Where are we in respect of that and the group that we discussed before Christmas to oversee implementation of the Toland report? When will the Government appoint the three individuals who will assist the incoming Secretary General to ensure the programme of reform for the Department is implemented?

Are there established protocols for political officeholders and those within State agencies and institutions, just as in An Garda Síochána, on the use of personal email addresses to communicate official policy or for official communications between officeholders? Unwittingly, people could circumvent freedom of information as a consequence of using two channels of communication on official and policy issues.

The separation of the Department from An Garda Síochána has not happened, notwithstanding the establishment of the Policing Authority. Has a review been undertaken in respect of the statutory remit of the Policing Authority and is the Government of a mind to revisit this? We suggested that it should be revisited in respect of the powers and the statutory nature of the Policing Authority and the relationship between An Garda Síochána, the Policing Authority and the Department, in respect of lines of demarcation and whether the authority has sufficient capacity and authority to deal comprehensively with the full range of issues.

I agree that the unprecedented articulation by the former judge, Ms Justice Mary Ellen Ring, on GSOC that despite the Protected Disclosures Act 2014 nothing has been done to give GSOC the capacity to follow through on protected disclosures is alarming. To an extent the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement has similar issues, which Deputy Howlin raised some time ago, in respect of the delay and procrastination in recruiting and providing it with sufficient staff to follow through on corporate crime in an effective and comprehensive way. All this illustrates the huge disconnect between the rhetoric and announcements and subsequent delivery on the ground.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Toland report recommends that the Department of Justice and Equality have one Secretary General and be one Department but two divisions, each headed by a deputy Secretary General.

That is the proposal and the report has been accepted by the Government. Deputy Brendan Howlin rightly says it is possible to have two Secretaries General and two Departments under the one Cabinet Minister. That is what we have under the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform. I have asked the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Charles Flanagan, and the head of the Civil Service, Mr. Martin Fraser, to examine this as a possibility. We have to advertise for a new Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality. If we are to go the whole hog and split it into two Departments, this would be the appropriate time to advertise for two Secretaries General, rather than one. That is being scoped out as an option. We must bear in mind, however, that it would be a deviation from the Toland report which recommended having a single Secretary General of a single Department, with two deputy Secretaries General heading up different divisions.

The Cabinet has not yet agreed a salary scale for the new Garda Commissioner. That issue has not yet been considered by the Cabinet. On the Kenneally case, the Government is very keen to allow the commission of investigation to begin its work as soon as possible. We have no interest in delaying the commission's work. At the same time, we do not want to jeopardise potential future prosecutions. The Attorney General and the Minister for Justice and Equality are working on the issue and the Minister will meet the families as soon as he has some news. We are working towards a solution that will allow the commission to begin its work. It might not be able to do all of its work, but it would at least be able to commence it. The Minister for Justice and Equality certainly speaks for me and all of Government on these matters.

On the additional documents provided by the Department of Justice and Equality for the tribunal, I am not sure what their volume is. I have heard reports that the volume is great, but I do not know that for a fact. I directed the Department of Justice and Equality to provide all documents for the tribunal and in doing so asked it to err on the side of generosity. If the officials were unsure about whether a document fell within the terms of reference, I asked that they send it anyway. It may be the case that many of the additional documents handed over do not fall within the remit of the tribunal. We will see that matter play out in the coming weeks and months as the tribunal does its work.

The budget of GSOC for this year has been increased to just over €10 million, up from €9.6 million last year, or an increase of over €400,000. The number of staff was 77 in 2015 and 2016. This figure increased to 84 in 2017 and will rise to 94 in 2018. That is not rhetoric; they are the facts. Consideration is also being given to additional staffing for the new protected disclosures unit once it is up and running. GSOC is already being given a bigger budget and more staff and may need a bigger budget and more staff into the future. However, the Government has to be prudent. We always have to bear in mind that we are dealing with taxpayers' money. Every public body states it is understaffed. I have yet to come across a public body since the foundation of the State that has stated it has enough or too many staff. Public bodies always seek additional staff. We have a job as a Government and custodians of taxpayers' money to validate requests or bids for additional staff; to prioritise, given the fact that even with an expanding budget, budgets are limited; and also to understand what the outcomes would actually be for taxpayers and society.

On changing the role of the Policing Authority and the independence of GSOC, these matters are being considered by the commission on the future of policing which will report this year. Rather than make changes now to the role and remit of the Policing Authority or to whom GSOC reports, it would be appropriate to allow the O'Toole commission to make its recommendations. When we have them, we can make decisions on policy changes.

I do not know if there is a protocol on the use of personal email accounts. If there is not, there probably should be. I will check to see what the position is.

5:05 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Of course, there should be.