Dáil debates

Tuesday, 16 January 2018

Ceisteanna - Questions

Ministerial Dialogue

4:35 pm

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach his plans to ensure a whole-of-Government approach to policy development and problem-solving by his Ministers; and the way in which he plans to encourage co-operation between Ministers in respect of issues as they arise across Government. [52725/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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81. To ask the Taoiseach the position regarding policy formulation in his Department; and the way in which co-operation with other Ministers and Departments is co-ordinated. [2115/18]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 and 81 together.

The Government acts collectively and any work done by a Minister within a Department is done with a whole-of-Government approach. A Programme for a Partnership Government sets out the Government's ambitious programme of work and shared aims and we will continue to deliver on this programme.

The primary mechanism for ensuring a whole-of-Government approach is the weekly Cabinet meeting at which all major policy issues are discussed and co-ordinated implementation is agreed. On occasion, special Cabinet meetings are held to focus on key strategic issues such as, for example, climate change and health reform.

Cabinet committees are also used to ensure a whole-of-Government, co-ordinated approach to issues as necessary. The Government has established the following Cabinet committees, all of which I chair: Cabinet committee A, which deals principally with the economy; Cabinet committee B, which deals with social policy and public services; Cabinet committee C on the European Union, specifically Brexit; Cabinet committee D, dealing with infrastructure, including housing; Cabinet committee E, which deals with health; Cabinet committee F, which deals with national security; and the newly established Cabinet committee G, which deals with justice and equality issues.

I also hold regular bilateral meetings with Ministers to focus on issues in their areas of responsibility and to identify how the Government can support the delivery of priorities and commitments. Co-ordination also takes place at official level through interdepartmental and senior officials groups, a number of which are chaired by my officials.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Working in a collegiate manner is both an important aspect of government and a constitutional requirement. However, we have not seen this approach taken on every issue, including in respect of the constitutional amendment.

I will return to what all speakers have agreed is the most important social issue facing the country, namely, the housing crisis. I had the privilege of serving in three Cabinets. One of the difficulties at Cabinet is that Ministers become preoccupied with the particular focus and affairs of their respective Departments. We need to think outside the box if we are to solve the affordable housing problem. Based on my experience in government and on foot of my dealings with the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, at close quarters, I made a proposal almost two years ago that the latter be transformed into a housing delivery agency. It has the skill set and landbank, as well as access to capital and direct relations with developers and builders. While in government, we started, in a small way, to push a social and affordable housing agenda. Are discussions taking place between the Department of Finance, the Department of the Taoiseach and other Departments to ensure a new housing delivery agency is created from the NAMA framework? Has this important proposal been considered and, if not, will it be considered? I welcome the statement by the Fianna Fáil Party last week, which made more or less the same proposal.

The Taoiseach spoke of the number of social houses built in 2017. These houses were built under the allocation of €2.2 billion we made in government in 2015. Given the significant lead-in period for house building, we need to mobilise more than the local authorities and voluntary housing agencies to tackle the imperative of solving the social housing crisis.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There have been occasions in the past two years when Ministers have differed on certain Government policies and some have approached the media to express these differences. The planned trip to North Korea comes to mind but there have been other examples of differences on policy and the approach to be taken to particular issues. I was struck by the comment made by the Minister of State at the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Halligan, that the Korean adventure was triggered by an off-the-cuff comment by the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Finian McGrath. It would be alarming if the frequent off-the-cuff remarks of the latter Minister of State were to become the basis for formulating Government policy in future.

Be that as it may, the absence of joined-up Government is a critical weakness in the delivery and execution of policy. This applies in areas such as disability and special educational needs where individual Ministers operate in silos.

The strategic communications unit, SCU, illustrates the obsession with spin, announcements and pronouncements as opposed to substance, delivery and Government action. For example, while a new campaign manager for Healthy Ireland and four or five other campaigns, including a new hospital campaign, has been appointed to the SCU, the latter will not have any involvement in explaining what is being done about the hundreds of extra patients on trolleys. I do not believe the unit will ever speak about trolleys or children with special needs who have been fostered or are not receiving the supports they need from the Health Service Executive and Tusla.

There needs to be a focus on cross-departmental co-ordination and delivery of targets in the programme for Government. People are fed up with announcements, reviews, strategies and so forth and are much more concerned about the absence of delivery on these core issues. This remains a significant weakness in terms of the Government's delivery of the aspirations contained in its programme.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The woeful lack of effective, joined-up action on the housing crisis has prompted civil society to take the sort of joined-up action that is necessary.

That will be made manifest on 7 April when trade unionists, civil society groups, homeless groups, construction workers and all those affected by the housing crisis - these are the same people who can offer solutions to the crisis - will be mobilising on the streets of Dublin to demand action on housing.

I appeal to the Government to think about this. One problem with the housing crisis - it is a feature of some of the crises in other public services as well - is that we cannot get the workers to do the work that is necessary to solve the crises. We talk about capacity problems in housing. We cannot get nurses and teachers in a range of areas. Why is that? Part of the answer was outside the Dáil today. A construction worker, who is also involved in the national housing and homelessness coalition organising the march, was protesting along with other construction workers because they work for agencies on zero-hour contracts. They literally do not know from day to day or from week to week whether they will have a week's work or a day's work. They maintain they do not want to work in construction anymore. Why would they? Thousands of construction workers have walked away from construction, but they would come back if they did not have to put up with zero-hour contracts and agencies that treat them like dirt.

If the Government wants to solve some of the crises like those in housing, health and education, it should do something about people who are working for these agencies on zero-hour contracts. These people do not have proper jobs or proper pay. That is why we cannot get people in who could help to fix these crises.

4:45 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, the whole-of-government approach, as it is described, is a perfectly sensible way to come at things. However, what we want is delivery, action and a joined-up approach. There has been failure to deal with these major crises. I keep coming back to this point - I imagine every other Deputy has the same experience. There is unnecessary stress in the lives of people, especially women, because of the crisis in our emergency services, the homelessness crisis, the issue of people being on trolleys, the issue of children who are homeless and the report from the Ombudsman for Children that lifts another lid on what is another stressful situation for the children involved as well as their carers.

We do not have a joined-up approach. The Ombudsman for Children report shows that each of the Government and State agencies did not know what the others were doing. No one knew the strategy of the others. We see this all the time at local level. The various Departments or agencies are working in slightly different silos and there is no joined-up approach.

There is also a major issue around the ideological basis on which the Government moves forward. If the Government decided to make it a priority to tackle and resolve the housing crisis, health crisis or any of these issues, then there would have to be a whole-of-government approach. There is no evidence of that. There is evidence of public relations and of a Government of Ireland approach, mar dhea, to these things. It is a matter of the substance, action and delivery that is required.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Reference was made to affordable housing. The Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Murphy, will be making an announcement on a new scheme and a revised scheme in the next days or weeks. That will come as welcome news to many people who do not qualify for social housing but who are unable to secure a mortgage because their income is higher than the social housing limit but lower than what is realistically required to get a mortgage. Details of the scheme will be announced shortly.

Deputies are right to raise the whole issue of affordable housing. When it comes to discourse in the House and public discourse the focus tends to be on homelessness and social housing because those issues are so important. However, we should not forget that the vast majority of people in the country provide their own housing and most people want to buy and own their own houses. We need to ensure that is possible for the vast majority of people. That requires measures such as the affordable housing scheme and ensuring that it is affordable to build houses. That is why new regulations are coming to reduce the cost of building apartment blocks. This will allow us to build more of them in our cities and towns and give people the opportunity to buy apartments and to get on the housing ladder again. Programmes like the local infrastructure housing activation fund use public money to provide services and access sites on which we can build houses.

It is important for parties to be aware that when it comes to NAMA we have an agreement and an understanding with the European Union on the role of NAMA. The understanding covers what is not and what is required to keep it off-balance-sheet. If Deputies were not aware, they should now be aware that any proposals to change the role or remit of NAMA, or to transform NAMA, following discussions with the European Commission could run into significant difficulties. Changing the remit of NAMA may force the agency to go on-balance-sheet or we could run into issues around state aid. If NAMA was competing with the private construction sector in the private rental market and the private housing construction market, that could constitute state aid. I am keen to ensure everyone is aware of that if they are developing policies for the future.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was a Fine Gael proposal.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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NAMA is already building social housing now.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I repeat that if NAMA were to get involved in the private rented sector or the private construction sector, that could constitute state aid. I want to make everyone aware of that as they develop policies in the coming months and years. Any such change could backfire badly on the State if suddenly NAMA was transformed into a body that was on-balance sheet or one that had to seek state aid approval to compete in the private housing and rental markets.

The Government has decided to do something different. We announced some months ago the establishment of home building finance Ireland. Provision for this is made in the new legislative programme on the A list. We anticipate bringing the legislation through the House in the coming months. That body will take the staff and expertise from NAMA and will be capitalised from Ireland Strategic Investment Fund. In many ways, it will do what Deputies are suggesting, that is to say, taking the expertise, knowledge and staff from NAMA as it is wound down. It will be capitalised from the State using ISIF and will be able to do certain things. However, Deputies should bear in mind my warning on what some people are suggesting about NAMA and how it could backfire badly on our State and community.

Healthy Ireland is very much a cross-government initiative. It is not simply an initiative of the Department of Health. It involves the Department of Education and Skills and what happens in schools. It involves the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport as well. That is one of the reasons the strategic communications unit is assisting with Healthy Ireland. It is a cross-government initiative and involves many different Departments. It is a very positive initiative and I welcome the campaigns under way at present to encourage people to make small changes to their health which, in turn, can make such a major difference for them. Ireland now has more people who have given up smoking than those who are smokers. We are seeing some evidence of increase in physical activity. These campaigns are welcome.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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By the way, the question was on joined-up government.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Where will we get the workers?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are out of time.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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A total of 2 million people are at work now.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We do not have enough working in construction. That is why we cannot build enough houses.