Dáil debates
Wednesday, 15 November 2017
Ceisteanna - Questions
Brexit Staff
2:20 pm
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach the number of staff in his Department that are working on Brexit specific issues. [47900/17]
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Department of the Taoiseach has an amalgamated international, EU and Northern Ireland division headed by a second Secretary General, who also acts as the Irish sherpa for EU business, including Brexit issues. Staff resources vary from time to time but currently amount to approximately 25 full-time equivalent posts across the full range of policy areas.
The work of the division includes supporting the work of Cabinet committee C, which deals with EU affairs, including Brexit, and supporting me in my role as a member of the European Council. In particular, this Cabinet committee assists the Government in its ongoing consideration of Brexit issues, including input to the negotiation process on the issues that are of unique or particular concern to Ireland as well as more generally. The division prepares me for engagement on a wide range of EU issues, as well as the debate on the future of Europe, and supports efforts to develop our strategic alliances in a post-Brexit scenario. The division also supports me in my international role and in all of my international engagements, ensuring that they are strategically aligned with and effectively advance the Government's priorities, with a particular focus on driving job creation, sustainable economic development, trade, tourism and investment and on protecting and promoting our strategic interests internationally.
The division also provides advice to support me in relation to Northern Ireland affairs, British-Irish relations and Brexit issues in that context. Staff in other divisions also contribute to the work on Brexit. For example, the economic policy division advises me on economic policy aimed at supporting sustainable economic growth, with a particular focus on jobs and competitiveness, including the possible economic impacts of the decision of the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. In all of its work across international, EU and British and Northern Ireland issues, my Department works closely with other relevant Departments including, in particular, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, which has lead responsibility for most policy matters in these areas.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. For the last year and a half, we have been arguing very strongly for a step change in the numbers we have working on the Brexit issue, in particular, and the future of the European Union. The Taoiseach has indicated that there are 25 full-time equivalent staff in the new amalgamated unit dealing with Northern Ireland, the European Union and, I take it, Brexit. Is that what the Taoiseach is saying? I received correspondence yesterday that there will be 11 staff working in the strategic communications unit.
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is that 11?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. There are seven already, in addition to an administrator and the director, with four more staff members to be recruited. It illustrates that this is a very rapidly growing unit whereas Brexit is the overriding issue which faces the country. Has the Taoiseach recruited any sectoral expertise to the Department to address Brexit issues of trade, customs, agrifood and economics? In an earlier reply to Deputy Stephen Donnelly, it was unclear whether the sectoral analysis undertaken by the Government will be published? Where is the sectoral analysis right now? It would be very useful for the debate if it was published. The Taoiseach might indicate the position in that regard.
There is a significant level of activity in the political realm in Britain relating to Brexit. Parliament is very clear now that it will have a say in the final Brexit deal. Can the Taoiseach indicate what the up-to-date position is now on a breakthrough or a breakdown? As I said yesterday, there was an announcement of a breakthrough this day last week which was followed by the announcement of a near collapse of the talks.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We have time constraints to be fair.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand it is fluid, but can the Taoiseach give an indication?
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yesterday, the Taoiseach spoke in the House about concerns relating to the agrifood sector in the wake of Brexit. Those are we all share, none more than those of us who have the privilege to represent Border constituencies. Last month, three reports were presented to the European Parliament's agriculture committee which exposed not only how badly Ireland's largest indigenous sector will be affected by Brexit, but also just how unprepared the authorities here and in Europe are to cope with the changing landscape. The reports make for very grim reading, especially for Ireland where the brunt of the economic shocks will unquestionably be felt.
Irish farmers are particularly vulnerable, not just because of their reliance on British markets to sell their produce but also as a result of consumer tastes and processing routes. Almost all of the processed foods that we deliver, even to the Continent of Europe, are transported across Britain at some point. When Britain leaves the EU, there is a possibility that Irish hauliers will be stopped up to four times in a single journey. This will have a very serious impact on their competitiveness and their ability to hold their share of the market. What is the Government's most up-to-date thinking on what I and many believe to be the best way of achieving the least worst scenario out of all this, namely, designated special status for the North of Ireland within the European Union? Where does the Taoiseach think that matter stands now?
2:30 pm
Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There seems to have been no increase in the number of staff in the Department of the Taoiseach working on Brexit since September even though things have changed - probably for the worst - since then in light of the possibility of a hard Brexit. I asked yesterday what contingency planning is being done for that possible outcome. I would like the Taoiseach to answer that question. The Taoiseach said he is not afraid of a no-deal scenario. I do not know what "I am not afraid of it" means because all the analysis I have read indicates that the consequences would be disastrous for this country. Perhaps the Taoiseach could do two things. Last week, he indicated that he is confident and at the weekend that he is prepared for a hard Brexit. What is his analysis of the prospect of being able to move on - with a satisfactory conclusion for Ireland - to phase 2 at the December Council meeting? What specific preparations are being made in the event of a no-deal scenario?
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Last week, the Taoiseach was very confident in his statement that sufficient progress had possibly already been made or could be made by the end of December that would allow us, in the appropriate circumstances, move forward to the next round. I am not saying he made a definitive statement. He indicated a degree of positivity or optimism about the possibility. I am concerned because we are up against an almost dysfunctional British Government that is conducting negotiations while there is an internal war over Brexit among the principle negotiators, the Tories. Have strategic risk assessments been carried out in the Departments of the Taoiseach, Foreign Affairs and Trade or Finance on the implications for the development of Irish tax policy, particularly corporation tax, post-Brexit?
Understandably, the Taoiseach also indicated last week, during his visit to the United States, that he is very excited at the developments in robotics and so on and that we should be at the cutting edge when it comes to the development of driverless vehicles. I believe he was referring to lorries in that regard. The tax and jobs implications of that, coming together with Brexit, are enormous. When Britain has left the EU, we will face a much more concentrated requirement from countries such as France to become much greater collaborators in the context of EU tax processes.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I will start by replying to Deputy Micheál Martin. I am not sure where the figure of 11 comes from. He may be double counting or counting two different units together. As I have often said, staffing within the Department is entirely a matter for the Secretary General. It would be inappropriate for me to get involved in it and I do not do so.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is in a letter. On a point of clarification, the Secretary General wrote to me. I received the letter, which details the staffing arrangements for the special communications unit, SCU, yesterday.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I often see articles in the newspaper about me requesting staff, etc. That is never the case. Staffing-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach picked and appointed the director.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Staffing in the Department, as is the case with every Department, is entirely a matter for the Secretary General. The Deputy was a Minister for 14 years or something like that and he well knows-----
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is the problem? I just said 11 and the Taoiseach seems to be-----
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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In respect of the 25 who are working in the international affairs unit, the Deputy should bear in mind that is 25 working in the Department of the Taoiseach. There are lots of other people -hundreds in fact - working on international affairs, on Brexit and on issues relating to Northern Ireland within the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Additional people in the various agencies - IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland, Bord Bia and so on - area also engaged in this work. We do not need to replicate the work they do in the Department of the Taoiseach but we do need to oversee and coordinate it. That is the role of the Department of the Taoiseach and 25 people is an adequate number to do that at this stage.
In respect of Deputy Micheál Martin's reference to the announcement of a breakthrough or breakdown, I do not recall anyone making an announcement of a breakthrough or breakdown in the talks. That is an interpretation or misunderstanding on the Deputy's part. The situation is very fluid and is changing all the time. For that reason, I will not give a running commentary on the negotiations and I will not provide an analysis in respect of them because things change a lot from day to day. I will be in Gothenburg on Friday to meet other Heads of State and Government. I will have an assessment after that which may be different from one I might give now. I do not want to cause confusion or distress for other leaders or Deputies by being obliged to provide different analyses on different days.
As Deputy Ó Caolain knows, the proposal for designated special status has been rejected by the United Kingdom. It has not been sought by Northern Ireland because there is no Executive or Assembly to seek it. If they existed they probably would not seek it. A very unhelpful motion tabled by Sinn Féin MEPs and calling for special status for Northern Ireland was rejected by the European Parliament because, of course, using a term such as "special status" sets off alarm bells for other countries. It speaks to separatism within their own countries and to a view within the European Union that the acquisshould apply and that there should not be exceptions created for other areas. This conversation about and demand for special status - and particularly the use of that term - is detrimental to our national interest. From time to time, we speak about unique or special arrangements. However, those are quite different.
On contingency planning, as I have said before, the kind of contingency planning we are doing is for different scenarios and there are many that could arise and that is the planning we are doing. It does not, however, extend to hiring border guards or training dogs or scoping out sites for border posts. Nor would it extend to designing information technology, IT, systems or customs forms or anything like that because trade is an exclusive competence of the European Union and anything done on that basis would have to be done on a European level not by a member state or domestic government.
On corporation tax, I do not know the details of any analyses carried out by the Department of Finance on these issues but I am sure it does carry them out from time to time. Our position on corporate tax is straightforward. We believe in tax sovereignty. Corporation and income taxes should be set by national parliaments and national taxes should fund national budgets. That could only ever be changed by unanimity in the European Union. There certainly is not unanimous support for any change to that. We do not need to do a lot of analysis in respect of it because our position on that is exactly as it is, namely, that there will be no change.
As for embracing new technologies, I can understand the fears Deputy Burton may have around future technologies, artificial intelligence, robotics and driverless vehicles, but history teaches us that there have always been people and political forces afraid of new technologies. Going back to the agricultural revolution-----
2:40 pm
Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I did not say I was afraid of them. I have no fear of them.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----and the industrial revolution people predicted that adopting new technologies-----
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Luddites.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----would result in unemployment and loss of jobs and actually something different has happened. Countries that have embraced new technologies have moved up the value chain and produced more jobs and better jobs.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I asked about publication of the sectoral analysis.
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There is no date for that.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry?
Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I do not have a date.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Why not?
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Only six minutes remain for the last question.