Dáil debates

Tuesday, 14 November 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions

Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

3:50 pm

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with President Macron. [46342/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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12. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with President Macron; the people who attended the meeting; the issues that were discussed; and if he met other groups while he was in Paris. [46343/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with President Macron and if the President outlined the EU reforms that are his priority. [46344/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach whether President Macron said he would support Ireland's priorities in the context of the Brexit negotiations. [46346/17]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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15. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the French President, Mr. Emmanuel Macron. [46795/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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16. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his engagement with the President of the French Republic, Mr. Emmanuel Macron, on 24 October 2017. [46925/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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17. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his trip to France and his meeting with President Macron. [47834/17]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 11 to 17, inclusive, together.

I had a constructive meeting with President Macron in Paris on 24 October last. Our exchanges covered bilateral relations, the Brexit negotiations and the future of Europe. We were each accompanied by a small team of officials and advisers. The meeting provided a welcome opportunity to review the strong bilateral relations between Ireland and France, which is an important economic partner for us. Bilateral trade in goods and services between Ireland and France is worth approximately €2 billion every month. This is a solid platform on which to build and strengthen into the future, especially as Ireland looks to grow and diversify its markets. We discussed our co-operation in other areas, including Ireland's contribution to the EU training mission in Mali. We expressed our joint commitment to the planned Celtic interconnector, which will link our electricity networks, improve our connectivity and support export-driven development of Ireland's renewable sector. This represents the future-oriented agenda we both want to deliver.

President Macron and I welcomed the progress achieved to date in the Brexit negotiations between the EU and the UK and the more constructive tone of Prime Minister May in light of her recent speech in Florence. We agreed that further work is required on the three withdrawal issues - the rights of EU citizens, the UK financial settlement and the Irish-specific issues - before the European Council can decide that sufficient progress has been made to move onto the second phase of the negotiations, which will deal with the future relationship and the transition arrangements. I thanked President Macron for his understanding and strong support with regard to Irish-specific issues like the common travel area and all the rights associated with it, the Good Friday Agreement and the Border. I took the opportunity to update him on relevant developments. We agreed that the 27 member states must remain united. We expressed our shared hope that it will be possible to make further progress in the coming months.

France and Ireland are long-standing partners at EU level, particularly in the area of agriculture. We work together to protect rural communities and family farms. On Mercosur, we agreed on the need to protect our vital interests, especially in beef and agriculture, while opening up new export opportunities for our companies. President Macron and I agreed to stay in close contact on the situation in this regard as it evolves. As partners and friends, we are ready to discuss issues on which we do not necessarily agree, such as how best to tax Internet firms so that they pay their fair share. I outlined our view that this is a global issue which should be addressed at a global level and that the best way to achieve a successful outcome is to support the work that is under way at the OECD.

More generally, President Macron and I agreed on the enormous potential of the digital economy and the need to ensure Europe provides the right economic environment for it to flourish. We want to see a dynamic and innovative entrepreneurial climate, with vibrant European companies scaling successfully on international markets. President Macron has brought a renewed energy to the debate about the future of Europe. We agreed that Europe needs to demonstrate the capacity to adapt to meet the challenges of the future, such as the digital revolution, the banking union, climate change, migration and security and defence. As I outlined to the House in my statement after the October European Council, there is a clear willingness among the 27 EU leaders to increase the pace of discussions on this issue while maintaining unity. We will continue our discussions at the social summit in Gothenburg on Friday during a lunch organised by President Tusk.

In looking to the future, I outlined to President Macron my view that we need to focus on areas in which Europe can have a concrete and positive impact on the lives of citizens, including jobs, growth and investment in the digital Single Market and the Single Market itself. We discussed our respective plans to bring the debate on Europe to the public through the citizens' dialogue and other mechanisms. This is extremely important because other more extreme and divisive voices will gain traction unless we can offer an honest, positive and compelling agenda. My meeting with President Macron was followed by a business event organised by the Irish Embassy in partnership with Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland, Tourism Ireland and Bord Bia. This provided a useful opportunity to meet a range of Irish and French companies across a number of sectors and to discuss the opportunities and challenges that arise for business.

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his comprehensive reply. Obviously, the UK is leaving the EU. The way things are going, it seems it is about to crash out of the EU. As a result of the UK's impending departure, the Franco-German axis is moving to centre stage in the context of the future of the European Union. There are moves for further EU integration. I am sure the Taoiseach discussed the future of the EU with President Macron. Ireland should be at the heart of that debate and have a positive input in respect of it.

I note that the Taoiseach and President Macron agreed on many things, but I would like to ask specifically about defence. Yesterday, 23 member states signed up to the permanent structured co-operation project, which is known as PESCO. I understand that this new EU defence framework will be launched at next month's EU Council meeting. What is Ireland's position on this initiative? What effect will it have on Ireland's long-standing policy of military neutrality? Has the Cabinet approved PESCO? Will the matter come before the Dáil? To what aspects of PESCO might Ireland subscribe?

Arising from the Taoiseach's reply, it seems that he and President Macron also discussed digital taxation and corporate tax harmonisation. This was probably another issue of difference at last month's meeting. Did the Taoiseach impress on President Macron that if his vision for digital taxation and corporate tax harmonisation comes to pass, it will threaten Ireland's long-standing economic model and represent a real threat to jobs, growth and living standards in this country? Can the Taoiseach provide assurances that he impressed on President Macron the importance this country attaches to those issues?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is good that the Taoiseach met the President of France.

4 o’clock

We have had strong relationship with France over the years, particularly in terms of the CAP, although France has always had an envious eye on our corporate tax rates and has made interventions that have periodically reached varying degrees of intensity. It seems we are now back in a phase where President Macron is focusing on the issue of taxation. The points raised by Deputy Haughey are important in terms of President Macron's ambitions for Europe and the set of proposals concerning EU reform and development. President Macron's position is clear, as is the position of many other countries. What is unclear is Ireland's position. The Taoiseach has welcomed some of the proposals. He has said warm things about the general idea of President Macron's moving forward agenda. However, the Taoiseach has done so in a very vague way and nobody really has any idea as to what is his or Ireland's position. It is time we had a debate in this House and a proper, detailed examination and, ultimately, articulation of Ireland's position on the agenda for the future of the EU, particularly in a post-Brexit scenario. I know that a public consultation process is ongoing but that has had very limited impact in more recent times and more innovative ways must be considered. Fundamentally, this Parliament has a role and we should be engaged with that agenda.

4:00 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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President Macron has made it clear that he supports, as do a number of other EU leaders, the move towards the creation of an EU army or military intervention force and a shared defence budget. The PESCO agreement, which they want to sign off on in December, is a step towards that. What President Macron and other European leaders think is clear. How does the suggestion that we may sign up to aspects of this agreement square with our tradition and position of military neutrality? The Taoiseach has made distinctions between a common foreign and security policy and involvement in a European military force or contributing to a defence budget. However, signing up to an agreement of this nature, a common foreign and security policy and pledges to progressively increase military expenditure hardly seem to be in line with protecting our neutrality, particularly when the architects and supporters of what is proposed are saying explicitly that it is a step towards the creation of a European army and a European common defence. Is talking about signing up to this not backdoor abandonment of our tradition of military neutrality?

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I am interested in the conversation the Taoiseach had with President Macron about Brexit. It appears that there is a growing realisation across the EU that Brexit, particularly on the British Government's terms, is incompatible with the Good Friday Agreement. The Taoiseach knows that Sinn Féin has been saying this from the outset. We see from last week's leaked papers a recognition that cross-Border co-operation is underpinned by EU legislation. The papers also make it clear that it is essential for the British Government to commit to avoiding a hard border, protecting the Good Friday Agreement in all of its parts and ensuring that the rules of the Single Market and the customs union are met. In our view, the only credible way to achieve this is special status for Northern Ireland within the EU. In other words, for Northern Ireland to remain within the internal market, the customs union and the EU legal framework. That would be possible if the Government presses for it in the Brexit negotiations. Europe is coming around to that view. The Taoiseach has a responsibility to ensure that this view is progressed and the Government has a responsibility not to waver or deviate from that position.

The British Government needs to start coming up with the goods and putting meat on the bones in terms of what it is suggesting. It needs to bring forward explicit proposals to ensure that Northern Ireland remains within the Single Market and the customs union. Will the Taoiseach commit to using the Government's veto on progressing the talks to include the issue of trade if the British Government refuses to seriously deal with this issue? In our view, the best of way of doing so is special status for Northern Ireland within the EU. Were these issues raised with President Macron?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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On PESCO, we have not yet made a decision, either as a Government and as a country, regarding whether we want to participate. We want to see the full details before we make that decision. It will require a decision at Cabinet followed by a decision of the Dáil, so there will certainly be consultation with the major Opposition parties before a decision is made. We are favourably disposed towards it. I strongly believe that countries need to work together to respond to the new security threats we face in the modern world. I refer to; international terrorism; cyber attacks, which nearly brought down health IT systems just across the water; uncontrolled mass migration; and trafficking of drugs and people. All of these things require co-operation across the Continent. They are not something that any nation state, even a big one, can manage on its own.

We are not going to join a European army, however, or sign up to NATO and neither will we agree to a mutual defence pact, so we shall remain a neutral country. The triple-lock mechanism will remain in place. We think that is in our interests as a country. Ireland is never going to be a military power. The fact that we are not part of a military alliance gives us more influence in the world for a number of reasons. However, I do not agree with the assertion that increasing military spending necessarily conflicts with neutrality per se. Lots of other neutral countries spend far more on defence than we do. In the years ahead, we will need to upgrade our equipment and modernise our Defence Forces. This is something they very much want. The impact of pay restoration for members of the Defence Forces will require an increase in spending. As a result, I do not agree that increasing spending is a bad thing or that it undermines our neutrality.

We affirmed our very strong view that the setting of taxes is a sovereign matter. While there are a number of European taxes that fund the European budget, national taxes should fund national budgets and it is up to parliaments such as this one to set taxes. We also reaffirmed our commitment to tax transparency. Tomorrow, with the Minister of State, Deputy McEntee, I will launch a public consultation on the future of Europe. This will be led by the Minister of State. I would particularly welcome a debate - either in the Dáil or at the Joint Committee on European Affairs - on what should be Ireland's position on the future of Europe debate. I will indicate my views on the matter in more detail tomorrow but I think I have already done so quite extensively in the House, if people wish to check the record.

It was asked whether I would commit to use or threaten to use the veto. No, I will not. I do not think that would be in our interests. To use the veto would be to set ourselves apart from other countries and to stand alone. At present, our strength is that we are one of 27 countries and have the support of 26 other countries. Negotiating as one of those 27 puts us in a much stronger position in our dealings with the UK. The Sinn Féin nationalist "ourselves alone" position whereby we should set ourselves apart from our European allies, stand alone and threaten to use the veto would be a really big mistake strategically. The best way to get the best outcome for Ireland is to continue to part of the 27 ensuring the 27 incorporate into Europe's negotiating position our needs. If we choose to isolate ourselves, which is very much the Sinn Féin political philosophy, it would do us serious harm.