Dáil debates

Tuesday, 3 October 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions

Cabinet Committee Meetings

3:45 pm

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet Committee C, European Union, including Brexit, last met. [40344/17]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet Committee C, European Union, including Brexit, will be meeting. [40545/17]

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet Committee C, European Union, including Brexit, last met. [40542/17]

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on Cabinet Committee C, European Union, including Brexit; and when it last met. [41385/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach when Cabinet Committee C, European Union, including Brexit, last met; and when it is scheduled to meet again. [41491/17]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5 together.

As outlined to the House in July, the Government agreed a new streamlined Cabinet committee structure and approved the establishment of six new committees, one of which is Cabinet Committee C. This Cabinet committee will cover issues relating to the European Union and will assist the Government in its ongoing consideration of Brexit. Cabinet Committee C will also support the Taoiseach's participation as a member of the European Council. The Cabinet committee, which I chair, met on 11 September. The date of the next meeting of Cabinet Committee C has not yet been confirmed. However, we will have a special Cabinet meeting next week to discuss Brexit given the upcoming European Council meeting the following week.

Preparing for and dealing with Brexit in a way that delivers the best possible outcome for the country remains a top priority for the Government. Its potential consequences cut across very many areas of our national and economic life and it is being dealt with in a whole-of-Government way, including through Cabinet Committee C, as well as at Cabinet itself and last week at the all-island civic dialogue. Issues affecting the island of Ireland are being given priority and considerable attention by the EU task force led by Michel Barnier and by our EU partners. They share fully our concerns and approach and are working to ensure that progress is made on the Irish issues in the negotiations with the UK.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Has the Taoiseach or anybody in the Cabinet in respect of the Cabinet committee commissioned a risk analysis and a jobs impact study on the likely impact of Brexit on jobs in Ireland and the impact of Brexit on Northern Ireland? I was concerned, and I would like to know whether the Taoiseach was concerned, by weekend reports in some Sunday newspapers. For example, a survey of staff in the European Medicines Agency in London showed that Dublin ranked seventh in terms of being a preferred city for the agency to move to. Dublin ranked well below Amsterdam, Barcelona, Vienna, Milan and Copenhagen. I think the report appeared in The Sunday Times. Does this concern the Taoiseach? The report said that 45% of the staff were reluctant to move to Dublin. Most workers and professionals in large European cities expect to have public transport. In respect of the Taoiseach's leadership role on this committee, what has he asked the committee to do to protect Irish interests and jobs and our share of European agencies?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Given that there are five questioners, perhaps we will take the questions first if Members are amenable and then come back.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Will the committee discuss, and does the Taoiseach propose that it discuss in advance of the European Council, issuing as a State an unequivocal condemnation of the Spanish state and Mariano Rajoy for the brutal and violent suppression of a democratic exercise in self-determination by the people of Catalonia? Article 1 of the UN Charter and all international law clearly defines self-determination. It is the right of people to "freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development." That right has been violently suppressed by the Spanish state. While there has been some mealy-mouthed criticism of violence in general, there has been no straightforward condemnation, and there should be, by the Government and European leaders of the brutal suppression of a democratic exercise in the right to self-determination.

That is at stake. We would not accept if the British state stated people in England or Wales had the right to determine whether Scottish people had independence, yet comments made by the Taoiseach and other European leaders appear to stand over the right of the centralised Spanish state to suppress the right of the people of Catalonia to self-determination. It is shocking in its hypocrisy for the European Union that goes on and on about its commitment to human rights to stand idly by while the Spanish state uses the most savage means to crush a democratic exercise in self-determination. Is the Taoiseach going to come out clearly and stand up for the right of people to democratically decide their own political future, while not taking sides on which way they should vote?

3:55 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Micheál Martin who is speaking on behalf of Deputy Aindrias Moynihan.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Last week direct questions were put to the Taoiseach about Brexit, but he avoided answering them beyond vague generalities. I want to ask him a very simple but important question which I asked last week. Has he proposed to the British Government or European Union partners that Northern Ireland receive special economic status following Brexit? He has said he will not propose any border arrangement and seems to have delayed work by the Revenue Commissioners on the matter. What exactly does he propose? One media statement by the Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, that the Border be moved to the Irish Sea was rejected by the North and does not appear to have been formally followed up. Once again, given that the Tory Government states it wants the United Kingdom to leave both the Single Market and the customs union, has the Taoiseach made specific proposals on the status of Northern Ireland?

Given that there was a summit last week, it is surprising that the Taoiseach did not make himself available in this House for statements either before or after the summit. While he did not make himself available here to talk about the summit, he managed to bring a party person with him to take videos of him on the Government jet and at a meeting at the Irish Embassy in Tallinn. These videos were first published on the Fine Gael website; clearly, therefore, they have no official status. Does the Taoiseach think this type of party politicisation of a Government event is acceptable? While his personal obsession with media management is clear, why did he decide to break from the practice of his predecessors and use formal European Union business for purely party political purposes? There is an important distinction to be made in the Taoiseach attending summit meetings on behalf of the people as head of Government, not as the leader of a mere political party.

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Given that we do not have a designated Minister for Brexit, it is important that the Cabinet committee on the European Union meet regularly. On the EU summit in Tallinn, I note that it was agreed that the European Union would be a global leader in the digital economy and that the leaders were committed to finalising the digital Single Market within a year. Will the Taoiseach provide a progress report on the matter? It is an important aspect of the European Union's agenda and we need to know how Ireland is shaping up in the completion of the digital Single Market.

On the future of Europe, there have been three significant speeches recently, one by the President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker; one by French President Emmanuel Macron and one by the German Chancellor Angela Merkel who supported the views of the French President. A vision for Europe is being set out. I would welcome the Taoiseach's views on how it is proceeding and how we will provide an input. Many are saying many things and the future of Europe is up for grabs. Ireland needs to be clear on where it stands in all of these debates. I know that momentum is building on the issue of corporate tax harmonisation, which is of concern to Ireland. Perhaps, in the Taoiseach's limited time here this afternoon, he might give us his views on the future of Europe, the vision outlined by the various leaders in the last few weeks and, in particular, where Ireland stands on these issues.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I also think the Cabinet committee on Brexit needs to meet more often. We look forward to hearing the outcome of the Taoiseach's special Cabinet meeting on the issue. He will know that today the European Parliament passed a significant resolution on the current state of the Brexit negotiations. It specifically states there has not been sufficient progress in the negotiations on citizens' rights, Ireland and the settlement of the British Government's financial obligations. It calls on the European Council, unless there is a breakthrough, not to move into discussions on new trade arrangements with Britain. It is clear from the resolution which was supported by Sinn Féin's four MEPs that the European Parliament believes Britain has refused to detail how it plans to resolve its financial settlement or divorce bill and how it plans to deal with the Border or the rights of European citizens. I was concerned about the positivity of some of the Taoisearch's remarks after his recent meeting with Prime Minister May. It was not anything he said but the effort to put a positive spin on what she had said when it was clear that what she had set out what was not sufficient and that, in particular, she was in breach of her obligations under the Good Friday Agreement. Does the Taoiseach accept the assertion which is reaffirmed in the European Parliament resolution that Britain must provide a solution that will ensure full compliance with the Good Friday Agreement? Does he also accept - he has not yet said this - that the North has to remain within the internal market and the customs union? We have been arguing for designated status for the North within the European Union which is essentially what the people voted for; they voted against Brexit. It seems that the Government's position is to support special arrangements for the North outside the European Union, something which just would not work. Will the Taoiseach use the opportunity presented by the European Council meeting later this month to lobby for special status for the North within the European Union?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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A number of risk analyses of job creation have been made by various bodies. They are of value, but the value is limited because we do not yet know what Brexit means. We do not know what the new trading relationship will be between the United Kingdom and the European Union. All the analyses can do is consider various potential scenarios and try to map out the impact they may have on job creation. They are of value, but it is, unfortunately, limited.

The Government is seeking the relocation here of the European Medicines Agency, EMA, and the European Banking Authority. We have put Ireland forward as a candidate country for these institutions and a further presentation will be made in Brussels this week. We have fallen down on the matter of video conferencing where the EMA is concerned, but we believe we can resolve that issue before the meeting. We are doing well overall on job creation. Today the unemployment rate is approximately 6.1%. We already have an EU agency located in Loughlinstown, Eurofound, with which Deputy Joan Burton will be familiar.

The events in Catalonia were discussed at the Cabinet meeting this morning. It is not intended to discuss the matter at the Cabinet sub-committee too. I answered questions about it in more detail earlier.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Not on the issue of self-determination specifically.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please let the Taoiseach respond.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We have not proposed special economic status for the North because of-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not hear that.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We have not proposed special economic status for the North because what we are proposing would not require it. Our proposition is that the trading relationship between the United Kingdom and Ireland should remain the same. I set out how this could be done in the speech I made in Belfast, first, in a long transition phase, second, through a customs union partnership which would still be a form of customs union between the United Kingdom and the European Union and also an EU-UK free trade area which would negate the need for a special zone. In accepting a special zone-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is if they-----

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----one accepts that there would be less trade or new barriers to trade. We have not given in yet.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not about us giving in but about the British coming to an arrangement with everybody else.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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One only needs special arrangements after giving in on the possibility of free trade continuing.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The British might not do it.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy referred to a party person who I had brought with me to Tallinn. I am not sure to whom he is referring because I did not bring a party person with me. He might be referring to the Government Press Secretary, Mr. Nick Miller, who travelled to Tallinn. Historically, the Government Press Secretary has travelled with the Taoiseach ever since they have been appointed.

4:05 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They do not do party work.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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They have travelled with taoisigh to summits.

In terms of my video, it is 2017. People do videos fairly regularly now.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, they do departmental work.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is the equivalent of where in the past, for example, a Taoiseach or Minister attending a summit would issue a press statement.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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One does not party politicise Government officials.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Of course, their press officer would type up that press statement and then send it out. Things are a bit different now. One's press officer may take a video of the Taoiseach and one sends that out on the Internet instead. It negates the need to type up a printed statement which is what would have been done in the past.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach is missing the point. One does not party politicise Government officials. One cannot do that. The practise has been dispensed with.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the future of Europe debate, I am familiar with Mr. Juncker's speech and President Macron's speech. All of these contributions are welcome. In the 36 seconds I have left, I am not in a position to outline my own thoughts on the future of Europe debate. Suffice to say that I think we should be engaged in it. Ireland is a founder member of the euro and a founder member of the Single Market. We took a decision a long time ago that our place was at the heart of Europe and in my view, we should stay there. When we approach this debate about future integration, we should always answer the question, not with what we are against or what we are going to try and block, but rather what we are for. There are lots of things we are for. For example, we are very much for the banking union and a capital markets union.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Are we for the self-determination of people?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We are for the proposals in Gothenburg on a social pillar. There are lots of things we will be in favour of, as the Deputy can imagine. We are for the completion of the digital Single Market, which was the purpose of the summit in Tallinn.

I understand what Deputy Adams is saying but from the way he speaks, he does not quite understand the situation. This is a negotiation. The Government of Ireland is not in a position to insist or make demands on anyone, whether it is the European Union as a whole or the United Kingdom. Making demands is a form of politics. It is not a form of negotiation. One can demand all one likes. It does not result in an outcome.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Government is co-guarantor.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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What we have to do is negotiate an outcome.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Taoiseach understand his responsibility under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement? As a co-equal guarantor of that agreement, the Taoiseach actually can make demands on the British Government.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps the Taoiseach will refer to that in his next response because we are moving to Questions Nos. 6 to 8, inclusive.