Dáil debates

Tuesday, 26 September 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed - Priority Questions

Public Services Card

5:15 pm

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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37. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will report on the review into the ongoing attempts to bring the public services card into widespread use; his views on whether the manner in which this has taken place has caused significant public alarm; his plans in relation to the expansion of the card; the legislative steps he plans to introduce to underpin it; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [40647/17]

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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The Department's e-strategy describes the widespread adoption of the public services card as being critical to the success of that strategy. The manner in which the public services card has been rolled out has caused a fair deal of concern and there is significant public apprehension and a lack of trust in regard to the use of the card. I want to know what steps the Minister is taking to address that public concern and whether he intends to introduce further legislation aimed at addressing those concerns and restoring public faith in the public services card.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The public services card and, importantly, its underpinning registration process are about providing people with public services in a safe and efficient manner. The underpinning registration process, which is called SAFE 2, involves a 15-minute visit to an INTREO office and is done just once. This process is used to establish a person's identity to a substantial level of assurance. This identity assurance level is the highest that is available to the public service. After going through SAFE 2 registration, the person gets a card and a MyGovID account. The card can be used for quick and safe access to services in the physical world, whereas MyGovID gives quick and safe access to public services in the online world.

Going through this registration process gives a number of benefits to the individual. It can protect a person from identity theft, reduce the potential for someone else to fraudulently access information, save time and effort in providing documentation that has been already provided to verify identity and allow a person to access more public services online. It also brings us into line with the increasing needs of the digital single market.

On the question of legality, provision for the information collected during SAFE 2 registration, how that information can be used and the production and use of the card is set out in the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, specifically in section 263. The process, the data and the card have been discussed as part of the legislative process in the Oireachtas over multiple Bill amendments. Since the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, successive Governments have discussed and progressed this initiative. The card has been promoted in successive public service reform plans. The matter has been subjected to a Comptroller and Auditor General study, published in the annual report of that body and examined by the PAC. It has gone through an exhaustive process of verification and debate to date, as it should. I have no plans at this stage to bring in further legislation in regard to the card because of the legislative foundation I have described.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister. I think it important to point out that my query is not about the merits of expanding the system. I understand there are very many reasons to introduce a card like the public services card and I readily acknowledge the benefits of wider e-governance. However, these systems require a level of public trust in order for them to function properly. At present I think a growing number of people simply do not believe their data are safe and are not sure how their data are going to be used. That is the issue. I am not questioning the card itself. I am questioning the lack of public confidence and trust in the system to maintain people's data safely and to ensure there are proper penalties in place.

As the Minister said, the public services card was introduced in legislation over a long number of years.

I believe that it can be traced back some 20 years when it was first discussed and early arrangements were made. Its function has steadily expanded since then. As a result of it going on for so long, many people were simply unaware of it until they were told they needed to have one of the cards to apply, for example, for a driver theory test. The vast majority of the public did not realise that was the case and that in the coming months the public service card was to be required in order to renew a passport, where their identity has already been safely established through holding an initial passport.

For the eGovernment strategy to succeed, the public needs to know exactly what their data is being used for, who can access it and what are the penalties for those who abuse that access. That has not been spelled out.

5:25 pm

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the Deputy's acknowledgment of the merits to the public services card and the approach that underpins it. On the specific questions the Deputy has asked around the use of data, any sharing of data between public bodies has to be consistent with the guidance from the Data Protection Commissioner. The commissioner has raised a number of matters on the operation of the card and I believe that the answer back to the matters raised by the commissioner will be published shortly, if they have not already been published. This will be done in public and will deal with any of the matters the commissioner has raised.

With regard to how we can further buttress the sharing of information and how to make sure the sharing of information is done in a way that meets best standards, this is where the data sharing and governance Bill makes a very important contribution. The Bill is currently at pre-legislative scrutiny by the Oireachtas. This legislation looks to make very clear the different kinds of datasets that can be held in organisations and how those datasets can be shared with other organisations in a way that is further supported by law. I hope that the passage of the legislation through the Oireachtas might deal with some of the issues referred to by Deputy Shortall and some of the concerns people have. The public services card is now held by 2.3 million individuals across the State. I believe that many of these people understand that at the very least it will allow citizens to get to a point where they only have to share information once to allow them to access multiple services, which will be a big step forward.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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The Minister has made the case for me in respect of the lack of public confidence in the security of these cards. The Data Protection Commissioner has raised serious concerns. The commissioner has been waiting some time for responses to those concerns and she has insisted that those responses would be published. The public has still not seen those responses. If the system is secure and if it is properly based, why is there such a delay in providing those responses?

The Minister also raised the data sharing and governance Bill. The Minister seems to be implying that there was a requirement for the data sharing Bill to be passed and brought into law in order to provide the assurances to people that their data are safe. Is the Government putting the cart before the horse?

Apart from the Minister giving sympathy and assurances to people today, he has not been very specific about what exactly are those safeguards and the penalties in place in the event that officials abuse the rules around access of the data, as we have seen before from some officials in government Departments.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not see how I could be making the case for the Deputy that there is no faith in this project, given that I pointed to the fact that 2.3 million individuals have this card and the roll-out of the card has to be compliant with current law on data protection. I said that very clearly.

The data sharing and governance Bill is legislation that has been before the Oireachtas for some time. It recognises there is potential for greater data sharing in the future and, recognising that potential and European Union law in that area, is looking to address issues regarding potential uses that could happen in the future. This is why the Bill is before the Oireachtas now and I hope the Houses will consider it positively.

With regard to the issues raised by the Data Protection Commissioner that are being considered by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection and my Department, we will respond and make our response to all the issues raised fully and publicly available.

The Deputy asked about penalties. I do not have available to me what exactly are the penalties. I will write to the Deputy with that information. It would be a gravely serious matter, and has been a serious matter, if any public servant uses the information on a public services card for any purpose other than that for which it is intended. I will make available to the Deputy the information on sanctions but I assure her that they are very serious and proportionate.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes Priority Questions. Before I move on to Other Questions, I remind Members that there is six and a half minutes in total for each question: 30 seconds for the question to be introduced, the Minister has two minutes to reply, and the Deputy then has one minute to respond. The Minister can come back with one minute and the Deputy has one last minute, and then the Minister has the final say. I ask that Members stick to the six and a half minutes because I do not like interrupting people. The reality is that when a Member goes over their time, another Member who is waiting to get their question answered does not get the time. Please bear that in mind.