John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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43. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection her plans to extend the requirement for the public services card; her views on whether other Departments and agencies should be able to insist on using this card for identification purposes; her further views on whether the public services card is effectively becoming a national identity card; her views on whether, if the Government wants a national identity card, it should introduce such a system through primary legislation; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [39140/17]

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There are four minutes left. If Deputy Curran forfits his 30 second introduction, the Minister can answer and I will allow the Deputy one supplementary.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The purpose of the public services card, PSC, is to enable individuals to gain access to public services more efficiently and less duplication of having to give the same information to a variety of different public bodies, while at the same time preserving their privacy to the maximum extent possible.

The purpose of SAFE 2 registration, as underpinned by legislation, is to verify the person's identity to a substantial level of assurance. Once identity is verified, a public services card can be issued. My Department makes it clear to our customers that they need to complete the SAFE 2 registration to access, or continue to access, payments and entitlements. This is not an unreasonable condition given the value of payments made to customers and the overwhelming majority of customers have no difficulty in completing the process. As of yesterday, we were at 2.87 million.

As I explained to Deputy Curran's colleague earlier in regard to a similar question, my Department and I have no plans to introduce any changes to the PSC other than those proposed in the Social Welfare, Pensions and Civil Registration Bill 2017 which will be before the House this evening.

To completely dispel the view of some people, the PSC is not a national ID card as it does not bear any of the characteristics of one. It is not necessary for a person to carry it or have it on him or her. One can stick it in a drawer at home. If a person does not need to use it again, that is entirely up to him or her. It cannot be demanded by the Garda. In fact, if gardaí asked for it today, they would be committing an offence under the Act we passed here in 2013.

Furthermore, it cannot be requested by any body or person not named specifically as a body in Schedule 5 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended. It can only be used by those specified in the legislation in the context of conducting a public transaction with the person concerned. Therefore, the legislation narrows its application considerably and proves that the intent of the card is, as it always was, just to access public services.

John Curran (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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As the Minister will be aware, there was quite a lot of controversy over the card. I understand the intent, but the concern in terms of the greater mandatory use of the card and the data that is collected is who else may view it, where it would go and where it might be used. It is all very well to say go home and put it into the drawer and that one might never have to use it again, but it is worth noting what other Departments have to say about it. What is the data to be used for? The Department of Finance when talking about the Revenue Commissioners states that it is in line with Government policy to develop a single authentication mechanism for customers to access public services. It goes on to talk about the PPS and MyGovID. In terms of the Department of Education and Skills, it talks about MyGovID using the same data from the 2018 to 2019 academic year and it being mandatory at that stage. The driver and vehicle online portals speak of using the same data. The Passport Office also speaks of using the same data. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs references it in relation to accessing the affordable child care scheme. The National Transport Authority even states that it is supportive of a move to mandatory electronic validation of the PSC for free travel.

The point I am getting at is the Minister is saying one thing and she is doing a certain amount but other Departments and agencies are in discussions with her Department. I am not opposed to it but there is merit in looking at where this goes. There should be a proper debate on the card rather than individual Departments trying to have individual agreements.

What is the purpose of this public services card outside of the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection? As the Minister can see from what I pointed out, quite a number of Departments and agencies have an interest in it.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is absolutely right, but it is not a change. I repeat that the public services card is to do nothing other than access public services. The reason the Deputy gets authenticated the first and only time is that if he goes through the SAFE process and he proves he is John Curran, he will never have to do it again. The Deputy will have proven with the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection that he is John Curran. When the Deputy goes to get a driver licence or if he makes a SUSI application, he will have proven he is John Curran. Rather than duplicate the whole effort of giving them his ID dataset again, the Deputy will have already proven who he is once and all he has to do is tell these people that he has been SAFE 2 passed and they will have access to all the Deputy's data and they will know the Deputy is the one and only John Curran.

There is no change to the remit of the card other than what we all agreed here in 2011. The people who can share the dataset are listed in Schedule 5. They are SUSI, the Passport Office staff, the driver licence staff and the health identifier staff. It is all listed there. There are 50 bodies, in which there are 102 sub-sections, but it is only to access public services. The Deputy will never be asked to whip out his PSC from his back pocket and prove he is John Curran.

With regard to national identity cards, for what it is worth, I would be totally opposed to them.