Dáil debates

Wednesday, 12 July 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions

Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

1:30 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Prime Minister Trudeau of Canada. [31465/17]

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Canadian Prime Minister. [31485/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Canadian Prime Minister, Mr Justin Trudeau. [32103/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his engagement with the Prime Minister of Canada, Mr Justin Trudeau on 4 July 2017. [32320/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his discussions with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau; and if CETA, North Korea and climate change were discussed. [32470/17]

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meetings with the Prime Minister of Canada, Mr Justin Trudeau. [32478/17]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 6, inclusive, together.

I was very pleased to welcome the Prime Minister, Mr. Justin Trudeau, and his family to Ireland last week. The Prime Minister was especially welcome as my first international visitor given the close and historic ties between our two countries. Our meeting was an opportunity to discuss our shared and common outlook on the issues of free trade multilateralism and climate action.

We discussed the importance of the bilateral trade and investment relationship between our two countries. Annual trade between Ireland and Canada is valued at more than €2.75 billion while Canadian tourist traffic to Ireland has increased by 56% in three years, with close to 200,000 Canadians visiting Ireland every year. The Prime Minister and I agreed that there is considerable potential for growing trade and economic links further given increased direct air access, the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA, and the strength of our respective economies.

We discussed the current state of play of Brexit since the commencement of negotiations, and I outlined Ireland's priorities in this regard. The Prime Minister was also interested in developments in Northern Ireland, and I updated him on the current political situation there. He reiterated to me the Canadian Government's commitment to support the Northern Ireland peace process and offered any assistance that might be helpful to drive progress.

The Prime Minister and I discussed the benefits and opportunities regarding CETA for both our economies and progress towards the commencement of provisional application. CETA is a progressive and comprehensive agreement which will remove over 99% of tariffs and create sizeable new market access opportunities in many sectors for Irish firms.

We also discussed climate change and reaffirmed our commitment to the implementation of the Paris Agreement. The Canadian Government continues its efforts to work with the US on climate change matters given that US withdrawal from the Paris Agreement cannot proceed until 2020.

The Prime Minister and I reaffirmed our commitment to working together across a range of common interests and I look forward to working to strengthen further the bilateral relations between Ireland and Canada in the time ahead. For the sake of completeness, let me add that North Korea did not feature in our discussions.

I later hosted a dinner at Dublin Castle in Prime Minister Trudeau's honour. This event was attended by distinguished guests representing various aspects of Ireland-Canada relations, including politics, tourism, business, culture and sport.

Prime Minister Trudeau's visit to Ireland, coming so soon after the visit of my predecessor, Deputy Enda Kenny, to Canada in May, represents a new era in Irish-Canadian relations. There are enormous opportunities for our two countries to work much more closely together, including on economic issues and trade, and I look forward to this relationship blossoming in the coming months and years.

1:40 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are six questioners in this grouping. Would it be an idea to take all six and then go back to the Taoiseach for a further response?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The fairly desperate scramble of the political establishment in this country and elsewhere to understand why it is so discredited often focuses on trivia and superficial impressions about what is important and what motivates the electorate. Never more did we see this on show than during the visit of Prime Minister Trudeau, when the focus of much of the commentary was about socks, image and jogging through the park. There was no serious debate about the substantial issues for which the Taoiseach and Prime Minister Trudeau affirmed their support, which are the actual reasons the political establishment is in trouble, namely, the consequence of 25 years of corporate-led globalisation, of which CETA is the latest version. I say seriously to the Taoiseach that he should recognise, even for his own narrow political concerns or, for that matter, those of Deputy Martin, that the reason the establishment is in trouble is the consequence of corporate-led globalisation on ordinary working people and their incomes, public services, infrastructure and the growing inequality in the distribution of wealth, which CETA will further exacerbate. The Taoiseach keeps saying he favours trade. So do I. I favour trade in a way that will benefit the majority of people. All the lauding of CETA, which the Taoiseach has reaffirmed, fails to acknowledge, first, that he plans to apply it without any democratic mandate in this country, as in many other places, which infuriates people, and, second, that he fails to acknowledge the damage it will do to workers' rights, environmental standards, the distribution of wealth, health and safety standards or, according to a recent academic study, the estimated 300,000 jobs that will be lost in Europe as a result of the agreement. None of these things is mentioned.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy. He is out of time.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Taoiseach just forges ahead with his support for this deal that will only benefit multinational corporations.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I share Deputy Boyd Barrett's concern about CETA. To take a specific example, the concern is that it does not protect the environmental standards we need desperately to enforce. One can say one thing but do another. The Taoiseach said that many of his discussions with Prime Minister Trudeau concerned the issue of climate change. Whatever the spin may be, I am afraid my understanding is that the Canadian Prime Minister spoke at a recent oil conference in Canada and said no one would find 173 billion barrels of oil and not use it, and this is what the Canadian Government is doing in one of the greatest acts of environmental destruction happening on our planet. The use of that oil would account for approximately 30% of the total global carbon budget that we can afford to release into the atmosphere. Prime Minister Trudeau's Government's co-operation with the US Government in building and reopening the Keystone pipeline and other pipelines calls into question their role in the climate issue. I am interested to know what the discussion about climate change between the Taoiseach and Prime Minister Trudeau was about. What did the Taoiseach propose as our special initiative or special actions in this area? Did he ask the Canadian Prime Minister to explain how he can talk up climate and yet plan to burn 173 billion barrels of shale oil, the dirtiest form of fuel available to us? What leg does Prime Minister Trudeau have to stand on in respect of the climate issue when he is planning to do this and ship the oil across the Keystone pipeline and other pipelines to the rest of the world?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As the leader of a party which supports international trade agreements and understands the value and importance of them, particularly for our economy and the maintenance and development of jobs in our economy, I posed a number of questions about CETA to the Taoiseach at the previous Leaders' Questions. Supporting international trade means we have not only a right, but also a responsibility to drill into the individual component parts of each trade agreement. The concerns expressed about the investor court system in particular are a matter I raised last week. It would address a huge number of people's concerns here if decisions in respect of disputes in international trade were fully determined by our domestic courts and would not be subject to any external overview beyond that. I would be interested to hear the Taoiseach's view on this matter. It was because of this and issues related to the environment, for example, as raised by Deputy Ryan, that Seanad Éireann voted against CETA. I would be interested to hear the Government's response to a vote of one of the Houses of the Oireachtas in this regard. Relatedly, when will the Dáil get a chance to debate fully a motion that the Government ratify the agreement?

I was intrigued by the answer the Taoiseach gave regarding Prime Minister Trudeau's offer of assistance from Canada in the next phase of the peace process. What was the Taoiseach's response to that offer? Does he envisage or see the kind of supportive role that was played in the past by the United States being supplemented by Canada, and how would this manifest itself?

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As the Taoiseach has acknowledged, one of the big issues of his conversations with the Canadian Prime Minister was CETA, yet there has been no real debate on this issue despite widespread concerns about the implications of the Canada-EU Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, especially among farmers, workers and small and medium-sized indigenous companies. There has been no proper debate here in the Dáil, and the Government has chosen to ignore all this and has signed off on the provisional application of the deal at EU level. It has ignored that such a treaty must be agreed by all state parliaments, including the Dáil, and we have yet to vote on this. The only vote in the Oireachtas, as an Teachta Howlin acknowledged, was a Seanad resolution calling on the Government not to ratify the deal. One of the issues at the core of the concerns is the inclusion of the investor court system, which would allow Canadian-based corporations the right to sue governments in the European Union for compensation for the loss of expected future profits in response to government actions that impact on the companies' activities.

We have received legal advice that the inclusion of this system is not compatible with Bunreacht na hÉireann. There is a duty and a responsibility for the Dáil to discuss these issues to ensure that citizens are fully informed of what is included in this trade agreement. Will the Government agree to CETA being debated in the Dáil? When will we have the opportunity to vote on this controversial trade deal? Has the Government sought a legal opinion on the need for a referendum to ratify CETA?

1:50 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a fair point to say that the curious thing about Prime Minister Trudeau's visit is how our Government's primary objective seemed to focus on personal publicity rather than on issues of substance, and while Prime Minister Trudeau did do events linked to Irish economic strengths, it was surprising that the Taoiseach decided to emphasise other aspects.

The CETA agreement is the most important issue of substance at the moment in Irish-Canadian relations. I remind Deputy Adams that we tabled a Private Member's motion here on CETA and enterprise, which was passed, and there was a debate about the issue in the Dáil some weeks ago. Perhaps he was not around or did not realise that this had happened. We did it for a reason. I attended a Dublin Castle event and met representatives of some companies. Among them was a small company from Limerick which employs around 80 people. I asked them if they realised that there was a chorus of negativity around CETA in Dáil Éireann, and they were taken aback.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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They were surprised?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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These are small companies we are talking about. These are two young men who set up a software company and they could not understand the disconnect between some politicians and the real world out there, where people want the Canadian trade deal in order that they can export their products. To a certain extent, all of the noise made has been negative and anti-CETA, and there has been no corresponding balanced perspective in terms of the value and importance of trade and weighing up that balance in terms of a free trade agreement.

Free trade agreements are notoriously slow to deliver. They move at a snail's pace. Multilateral trade agreements are extraordinarily difficult to get over the line. When they do get over the line, we have a regular chorus of negativity and anti-trade sentiment. People say that it is all wrong and that it is a terrible thing. Exaggerated claims are made to the effect that it is a dastardly attempt to destroy the ordinary people. Many ordinary people depend on jobs in companies that are growing and prospering because of free trade. We have never had any realistic, logical alternative from the left, from People Before Profit or the Anti-Austerity Alliance. We hear that those parties do believe in trade, but of a different kind, whatever that means. We are a small island on the Atlantic. We need an open economy. We made the decision in the late 1950s and early 1960s to open up. We cannot dictate to the entire world and we will not be in a position to dictate to the entire world. Trade is the lifeblood for working people in this country and there must be a degree of honesty about this debate and face up to it. Other parties might talk about establishment politics, whatever that means. We are all elected here. I do not label anybody in terms of establishment or anti-establishment. That is the oldest trick in the political book in terms of rhetoric. The reality is we represent ordinary working people who depend on a salary every week or month because they work in companies that have to sell goods and services, be they beef, milk, software or life sciences; companies that will not expand if they do not have access to new markets.

Did the Taoiseach make any specific commitments about the ratification of CETA and when will this Parliament ratify CETA? I agree with other Deputies on that matter. I have been calling for this for 12 months. Let us have a debate and a ratification process here.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I know we are all equal but I do not believe I will need the extra two minutes that Deputy Martin took for himself.

We found out more about the Taoiseach's socks during the visit of Prime Minister Trudeau than anything else. We saw soft focus pictures of the Taoiseach jogging in the Phoenix Park, which the media, compliant as they are, chose to focus on. CETA is a very serious issue and as other people, including Members of the Seanad, have said, there is a conflict between CETA and our Constitution. The key issue is the investor-state dispute settlement mechanism, now known as the investor court mechanism, which allows companies to sue states for a loss of profits or interfering with their right to make profits. For example, should the State implement regulations around environmental standards, working standards or other regulations? Yesterday a Bill on waste reduction was progressed in the Dáil. Is that something that could hit companies?

I do not know which circles Deputy Martin moves in but there is huge international opposition to this, including from trade unions, so I am surprised that his friends were not aware of that.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are not my friends.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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As for the realistic alternative the left would advocate, we are more international than many of the parties of this Dáil and of course we believe in international trade but trade in which workers' rights are protected and the environment is put to the forefront. Some international trade must be challenged. Some trade is absolutely ludicrous, such as bottles of water passing each other on aeroplanes. We want to protect the environment.

Is the Taoiseach going to allow a debate in the Dáil? A Private Member's Bill does not cut it, nor does a motion. Will there be a proper debate in the Dáil in the autumn, and will the Taoiseach allow this to go to a referendum if he does propose that it should be passed?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are eating into the time for the second group of questions. Perhaps we should take an additional eight minutes to allow the Taoiseach to address the questions, if necessary.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am in the hands of the Ceann Comhairle.

I often hear Deputy Boyd Barrett speaking about the political establishment being discredited and in trouble. I do not know for sure what he means by that phrase. I presume that he is referring to my party and perhaps the parties of Deputies Micheál Martin and Howlin. Of course, all of our parties win many more votes that his party does in almost every election.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is historically declining.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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In fact, we win more votes in one or two constituencies than his entire party wins across all its candidates in the entire country. He may want to reassess what he means by being discredited and being in trouble. Perhaps in his view going from an 80% share of the vote to 60% means one is in trouble but going from 2% to 2.5% is a great victory. Everyone has a different perspective on these things but I consider the fact that his party has so few votes and so little representation in democratic assemblies to be more of a reflection of his politics being discredited and in trouble than that of the major parties in this House.

Provisional application for CETA was ratified by the European Parliament on 15 December. Trade is principally an EU competence and the European Parliament, which is elected by the people of Europe, ratified democratically the provisional application of the agreement by Europe. We expect the provisional application to take place this year. The real benefits derive from provisional application because that allows us to remove tariffs on the vast majority of goods that are traded between Canada and the European Union. We expect that application to happen this year and we will see the benefits flow from that in the years ahead with more trade between Europe and Canada, consumers getting better prices and successful companies getting more business and therefore being able to create more jobs-----

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Many small companies will go out of business.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----and thus resulting in more revenues for the Exchequer.

In terms of full ratification, I agree it absolutely requires a debate and a vote in the Dáil. However, no date is set for that as yet. Thus far only two members states, Latvia and Denmark, have ratified the agreement in full. We do not have any date for that at present. The real benefits in terms of trade, business, jobs and revenue come from provisional application, which will happen this year and was approved democratically by the European Parliament on 15 February.

There was some anti-free trade rhetoric in the House during the questions. We have heard this anti-free trade rhetoric before. We heard it when people opposed joining the European Economic Community back in the 1970s. We heard it when people opposed the Single European Act in 1986. We heard it when people opposed joining the World Trade Organization. Very few people in Ireland seriously wish to reverse any of those free trade agreements or pacts we have entered into because people recognise those agreements are part of the reason we have 2 million people working in Ireland, rather than only 1 million, as was the case not long ago.

It is part of the reason for the improvement in living standards and prosperity in recent decades because we are a trading country and an open economy, and on balance we benefit from free trade agreements. There are pluses and minuses in any treaty or agreement but we certainly have more upside than downside. That is why people, including small and big farmers and businesses, are now fighting so hard throughout the country to retain free trade with Britain. They understand instinctively that their farms, property, businesses and jobs benefit from free trade. That is why we are trying to defend free trade with the United Kingdom which in some ways appears now to be turning inwards. That is why we are so committed to retaining free trade with the rest of the European Union and expanding our trade agreements with Canada, Japan and any other place within reason that is willing to negotiate agreements with us.

On climate action, the Canadian and Irish Governments recommitted themselves to the implementation of the Paris Accord. We had some discussion about the United States and the fact that even though it has issued its intention to withdraw from the Paris Accord, that cannot happen in effect until 2020 which potentially will be after the next electoral cycle in the United States. We expect it will meet its targets in the meantime. We will struggle to meet ours but we do intend to do so and will publish the national mitigation plan next week. We did not get into much detail on what Canada and Ireland are doing to implement the Paris Accord but we did commit the two countries to implementing it.

2:00 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is because there is not too much detail.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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On the peace process, the Canadian Government offered to assist in any way it could. There was no specific offer as to how it can help. I did recall the important role General John de Chastelain, a Canadian, played in monitoring decommissioning and the putting of arms beyond use. I inquired as to how he was doing and he is still alive and well. We did not get into any particular detail on what additional assistance the Canadian authorities could offer in the peace process. We have got to the point now where the amount of external assistance we need from other countries is less than it might have been in the past. Most of the issues that need to be resolved need to be resolved by people in Northern Ireland and in Ireland and Britain without external help. That is not to say, however, that we do not reserve the right to request it from time to time.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We move now to Question No. 7 in the name of Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The political establishment, which I will define for Deputy Micheál Martin, comprises the people who have dominated this State since its inception-----

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, the Taoiseach answers first, then the Deputy can come in.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let him speak.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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He is practising.